The Origins of Allah.

[GuardianShua]

Allah is a phase of the sun, translation "The Dawn", interpretation: Morning Star or Rising Sun. Allah is the contracted form from Alilah and the transliteral is this: The/god/ascends. The reason for the confusion is because the word "Allah" is borrowed from the Chaldean language. It is not a Aramaic word. More than two thousand years ago the Aramaic word for God was El, and "Elah", which means "The God", reading right to left. Another example is the Chaldean word for (sundown),"Me'al", reading right to left, but also written here left to right for the english language. And as for the Arabs that did worship the God of Abraham, they called Him "Elohiym", which means "God of the Living". As tradition has it, it was Abraham and Ishmael that built the Kaaba as a house for Elohiym, but as time went on other gods were introduced and placed in the Kaaba. Now when Elohiym was in the Kaaba pantheon, there came the King of Moab called Balak; and it was Balak who wanted the prophet Balaam to ask Elohiym to curse the Jews, but Elohiym refused to curse the Jews. (For more info see Numbers 22 through 24:25 in the bible) At some point in time afterward, Elohiym, the God of Abraham was cast out of the Kaaba by the Arabic people, and His name was cursed and not to be ever spoken. During that time Chemosh was made the head of the Pantheon in the Kaaba. Chemosh means Highest Power, and is also a phase of the sun at midday; it is Allah who becomes Chemosh at midday. And so Mohammed did not know the name of the God of Abraham, and that is why he said, "you already believe that Allah is a god, why not believe that he is the only God". What Arabs have forgotten, is that because the Hebrews and Arabs are decendents of Abraham, they both had spoken the same language at one time.

The New testament scripture of Matthew 22:37 repeats Deu. 6:5. If this verse were represented in Hebrew, it would, show YHWH, not Allah as the one you should love as the God of you. The translations clearly show that LORD is a substitute for the word YHWH and not a replacement. The problem is the fact that "ALLAH" isn't used as a replacement for YHWH in the Arabic bible.

Jesus is reported to have cried out in Aramaic: ELOI, ELOI,LAMA SABACHTHANI? If Allah was valid, how come Jesus called out in Aramaic "Eloi". Although those who have translated the Bible into Arabic used allah as a term for God.

According to The New Strong's Exhausive Concordance of the Bible, the defination of eloi is as follows: Eloi is of Aramaic origin, and is the Aramaic phrase "my God". God has many name titles, but YHWH is the "true" name of God in the Hebrew language.

Note: Babylonia, Babylonian: Babili, a contracted word for "gate of the gods"; From an old Persian word Babirush, ending in "li", forming a double "LL" sound for the word "gods".

Using Ahmed Deedat's booklet, What is His Name? On page 25 of Deedat's book, he gives a list of the names of deities in Hebrew, English, and Arabic. He claims that Elah, a Hebrew Bible name, is the same as ILAH in Arabic. There is just one problem. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Elah the name of God. It is the name of a man and the name of an oak tree. (Pictorial Ency. of the Bible, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, Vol. 5.) However "elah" means "gods above" in the old Armaic. We are grateful to Ahmed Deedat who has helped us identify Allah by admitting that "ILAH" is the root name for Allah. The complete name of Allah before it is contracted is "AL-ILAH."

(Hitti, Philip, History of The Arabs, London, 1950 , 8 ,) "ILAH" is the masculine root word for Allah, or "god", in Arabic. "AL ILAT" is the feminine resulting in Allat. The "AL" on the front of Al-ILAH is simply the definite article "the." (Tisdall, W StClair, The Sources of Islam, Amarko Book Agency, New Delhi, 1901 , 5-6 , , Islamic Propagation Center Int. Durban, S. Africa) AL-ILAH and AL-ILLAT are the root forms of the two names, Allah and Allat, from ancient Sumer where the names of a god and goddess. Allat is the goddess referred to in the "Satanic Verses" in Al-Koran, Sura 53:19-23. There is no contracted form of God's name, as Deedat claims, in the Old Testament of the Hebrew Bible. Also, this Allah of Islam is not Elah of the Bible, unless Allah was the son of Esau named Elah (Genesis 36:41) nor was Allah one of the kings of Israel? (I King 16:6-8,13-14).

Deedat and the Mullahs' claims that "Alah" is used by Dr. C.I. Scofield to clarify the origin and meaning of Elohiym. The note cited is in the footnote of the Scofield Reference Bible, King James Version, under Genesis 1:1.(Deedat claims Alah and Elah are variations of the same Hebrew word. But "Alah" is the word for an oath or vow, while Elah is the name of a man, a valley, or an oak. Dr. Scofield says that "EL" is combined with "ALAH" to give the name of God, which is in error, because the two words do not contract into Elohiym, as any primary student can see! " "ALAH" is a plain Hebrew word, not a contraction as with "Allah" of Islam which comes from "AL ILah," and thus the double "LL". The Hebrew language has no relationship linguistically to the Allah in Arabic and the Koran. Also, there is no record in the history of the Hebrew language that "ALAH" is part of the concept of "EL" or "Elohiym." This is why the revised edition of the Scofield Reference Bible omitted the note on "ALAH." Ahmed Deedat has been very helpful to use Schofield's erroneous note. He has shown that Muhammed was not the only one to blunder by listening to Satan in the Koran, Sura 53. Allah is not in the Bible, and Elohiym is not in the Koran or Mecca. So what is the origin of Allah? Allah was not an invention or revelation brought to Muhammed during his visits to the caves outside of Mecca because Allah existed long before Muhammed showed up on the scene. According to W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammed's original message was not a criticism of paganism. It was directed at the people who already believed in a god named Allah, or Al-ILAH "the god ascends." Muhammed encouraged the people of Mecca to retain this generic god in the Kaaba as he directed their attention to Allah, then he threw all of the other gods out. The evolving monotheism of Mecca was vague as to Allah's role, so Muhammed had very little trouble tailoring his new religion to their tastes. (Watt, W Montgomery, Muhammed, Prophet and Statesman, Oxford Press , 25-26 , ) The Satanic Verses allowed the Meccans to keep Allat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. This helped to wean the Meccans off of their pantheon slowly, leaving them their three favorite goddesses until Allah's monotheism could be enforced later by the sword. (Noss, John B, Man's Religions, 6th Edition, Macmillan, NY, 1980, 499, ) At that point Muhammed revised Sura 53 to exclude the three goddesses, and Allah was left standing alone, the monotheistic heir to the estate.

James Hastings, in his Encyclopedia of Religion, says that Muhammed at one point wanted to abandon the rather generic name of Allah for a more colorful one, but he later realized that Allah was holding the peoples attention just fine. (Hastings, James, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Scribners, NY ,248 ,) When Muhammed came to Mecca to clean up the Kaaba, and was throwing all of the gods out, except for Allah, the paintings of Jesus and Mary on the inside walls of the Kaaba persuaded him to include Mary and Jesus in the new cult. So that's why Surah 5:116 mentioned Mary.

How Muhammed decided to keep Allah is simply a matter of which god he thought would be universally least offensive to any particular tribe of Arabs around Mecca. (Muller, Herbert J, The Loom of History, Harper and Brothers, NY, 264-265,) After all, it was the Kaaba, the building, which was most sacred, rather than the contents. Even today the mosque (which originally was the pre-Islamic name in Arabic and Aramaic for a building holding an idol) is now void of images and symbols. It is the building itself which is sacred.

The least offensive name of the gods in Mecca was Allah according to Muhammed's biographer, Ibn Hisham. He admits that the pagan Kinanah and Kouraish tribes called the supervising god of the Kaaba, IHLAL. And they called the Kaaba, "Beit Allah," "house of Allah,". This is henotheism where a chief executive god presides over many junior gods on behalf of the ruling tribe living around the god house.

The Greek historian Herodotus from about 450 BC, tells us that the Northern Arabians had a god and goddess named Orotal and Alilat. (Herodotus, Translated by J Enoch Powell, 1949 , 200 ,) Orotal is simply a corruption of Allah, or Allah Ta'al, God Most High. (Zwemmer, Samuel, The Moslem Doctrine of God, Am. Tract Society, NY , 24 , )

Islamic Sheikh, Ibrahim Al-Qattan, in a lecture given to the International Progress Association in Vienna, said that the religion of Arabia can be traced by the epigraphic and inscription evidence back to 500 BC, or 1000 years before Muhammed. He said that they had gods named Baal Shamin, Dhu-Samawi, Rahman and Allah,which they got from Syria and Persia.

According to Sheikh Ibrahim, Allah was the highest deity, and his name was inscribed in stone by Jewish traders along the Arabian trade routes. These paganized Jews also called him Rahman, while the Arabs called him Allah. (Al-Qattan, Sheikh Ibrahim, Lecture on Monotheism, I P O Journal, Vienna ,26-29 ,) It is very clear that these sacred concepts, such as Allah, the Kaaba with its black stone, running around the Kaaba seven times, climbing mount Arafat, as well as the god-name Rahman, and stoning Satan, (which Muhammed got "by revelation") were salvaged from the ancient paganism in Arabia. (Gabrieli, Francesco, Muhammed and The Conguests of Islam, World Univ. Press, NY, Toronto , 41 ).

The clear dominance of the Meccan thought of Muhammed's day was that Allah was the high god, nothing else. His celestial, or solar, role had even fallen on hard times by 600 AD in the Kaaba, while Allat was much more dominant up the road at Taif. Some have claimed that Allat was Wallat wasn't in Islam, but Surah 53 and historical inscriptions say other wise. The star and crescent of Islam are clearly based upon the moon goddess, Allat, and the astral goddess, Al-Uzza. Allat and Al-Uzza figure in Sura 53 in what is called "the Satanic verses," which Muhammed initially gave, but later deleted. The moon and Venus connection to Allat and Al-Uzza are one of the most embarrassing matters for the Mullahs of Islam.

In the linage of IL, alias, Enlil, ILAH, Be`IL, Bel, Ba`al, and so on, the god always has a goddess consort, who is usually a grammatical gender alternative. Such is the case with Allat, the goddess of Arabia. She was the consort of Allah, so the ancient rule of deities follows very well. Allah was a sun deity, and Allat was the moon goddess. If we leave Allah who he was from the past, he is then easy to trace back to Babel. The inscriptions of the Arabs, in which they refer to Allah and Allat, in the same passage, would have found that these references lead systematically back from Mecca to North Arabia, Jawf, Petra, Phoenicia, Palmyra, Assyria, and finally to Babylon, IN ARABIC language forms, and as early as about 1500 BC.

 

[GuardianShua]

By traceing the route of Allah from Sumer to Mecca's Northern route. Allah's route through Assyria is one of the first places he began, away from Sumer, the LIL base root mentioned before was found in Assyria.

A typical record of the passage of LIL, or Allah, through Assyria is found in a royal inscription which may have been a bilingual effort,but only the Assyrian tablets survived. The translator is Sayce in The Hibbert Lectures, p. 511-12, and it is, of course, in cuneiform. The source is the Royal Asiatic Society, London, 1932. In line 14 there is praise of the ruler, undoubtedly Assyrian, for his love for "the writings of the age before the flood." This dates the Assyrian text solidly to about 2500 BC or earlier.

In praising the ruler in line 17, the author says he set up worship to Shamash and Rammam. This is the god Rimmon mentioned in the Bible, II King 5:18: Naaman, the Assyrian General, says, "In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand... I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing." Naaman had worshipped this god, until he was converted to the worship of Elohiym through a healing experience in Israel. He was told by God's prophet to go in peace since his heart was right.

Rammam became Rimmon of later days, then he moved in two directions. In Persia and India he became Brahman, and survives in Vedantic theology to this day. In Mecca, Muhammed used Rahman as a name for Allah, and this is also Ramman.

Translation experts have proven that Rahman, Rimmon and other forms of LIL represent Allah, even though the names evolved, they still represent Allah. This historical evidence is verified by experts.

Going back to the clay tablets: On line 17 the whole name on Ramman is "Ramman ilani." Here you see the IL root in the "god" word. On line 18 of an opposite "page" we find the Assyrian ruler praised the name of Enlil ilani. Enlil was the primal earth god of Sumer. Here then we see that "ilani" is a basic god word attached to the more specific god, Rammam.

Rahman was the Assyrian favorite and was the counterpart to Enlil, who, by this point in time, was quite ancient. Here then is clear proof that LIL , IL , Enlil moved to Assyria from Babylon to become contemporary with Ramman.

Ninlil, the goddess and wife of Enlil, came along also, being addressed in prayer as the "wife of sovereignty." She had to share the goddess role with Beltis, wife of Baal, showing how the old is added to the new. (Smith, Sidney, Babylonian Historical Texts, Methuen and Co, London , 86-87,) They were around Shinar, and later around much of the Tigris and Euphrates Valley, mounds where Semiramis was said to have buried her lovers. They accompanied the belief that Tammuz, the later name of Nimrod, was the victim there. In allegory, a poem was written centered on Gilgamesh, another Nimrod re-name. The goddess is addressed and scolded for trying to kill Gilgamesh as follows:

Tammuz, the lover of your youth,

You caused to weep every year.

The bright colored Allallu bird you did love.

You did crush him, and break his pinions. (Frazer, J G, The Golden Bough, Vol. IX, Unabr. Edition, The Scapegoat, Lond , 371,)

Note Allallu in the above poem. This is clearly an Allah god form from 2300 BC! Alasandair Livingstone did exhaustive work on the Babylonian and Assyrians, and their notions and lists of gods. These works seem to be instructions in whom to pray to, and are similar to the long list of Saints in the Roman Catholic Church, each having his own particular interest in nationalities and life problems. All of the Sumerian pantheon is carefully exalted, and new gods are added.

In one list, two gods come up, Alla and Alala. These are at least dated from 2300 BC, and it shows that the name Allah had roots in the most literal sense from the Assyrian era. (Livingston, Alasdair, Mystical and Mythological Explanatory Works of Assyrian and Babylonian Scholars, Oxford, 1986 , 198-201,) In another liturgical prayer book of Assyria, the order of prayers was in descending order with most of the pantheon included so that none would be offended. Way down the list there was a request made to the "bird of heaven" to carry the prayers up for the worshipper. ( Sayce, A H, Assyria, Religious Tract Society, London , 86-87 ).

So we see that the heritage of Allah, or LIL, was at work in the Semitic language forms of Assyria. Later Arab forms simply added the classic aspirated "h" on the end (ILAH). The only thing the Arabs added was "H", and Allah wasn't a new concept of God. And Muhammad's personal biographer proved it.

To confirm the bridge between Sumer and Assyria, we go to "The Annals of Sennacherib." Luckenbill deciphered the chapter describing the improvements on the royal palace, from which we take excerpts. This is a very small part of the cuneiform material from the era, and in it we find the following:

Line 66- Assyrians are called "the subjects of Enlil" (note IL-god). Line 77-79- Both Enlil and Ninlil are appealed to, which shows the clear migration, from Sumer to Assyria, of the god and goddess concept in the IL model. Line 24- Enlil is called "Father," which shows the nonsense of Muhammed's claim that Allah is not a father.

List of variant names for Chemosh: Chemosh, Chemesh, Shemesh, Shemosh, Kemosh, Kemesh, Kemowsh, Shamash, SHMH.

ARCHAEOLOGY. MOABITE STONE OF MESHA 930 BC.

Moabite Stone I am Mesha, son of Kemoshmelek, the king of Moab, the Dibonite. My father was king over Moab for thirty years, and I became king after my father.

And I made this high place for Kemosh in Qarhar . . . because of the deliverance of Mesha, and because he has saved me from all the kings and because he caused me to see [my desire] upon all who hated me. Omri, king of Israel -- he oppressed Moab many days, because Kemosh was angry with his land.

And his son succeeded him, and he also said I will oppress Moab. In my day he spoke according to this word, but I saw my desire upon him and upon his house, and Israel utterly perished forever.

Now Omri had possessed all the land of Medeba and dwelt in it his days and half the days of his son, forty years, but Kemosh restored it in my day. And I built Baal-meon and I made in it the reservoir and I built Kiryathaim. And the men of Gad had dwelt in the land of Ataroth from of old and the king of Israel had built for himself Ataroth. And I foutht against the city and took it, and I slew all the people of the city, a sight pleasing to Kemosh and to Moab.

And I brought back from there the altar-hearth of Duda and I dragged it before Kemosh in Kiryoth. And I caused to dwell in it the men of Sharon and the men of Meharoth (?).

And Kemosh said to me: "Go take Nebo against Israel"; and I went by night and fought against it from break of dawn till noon, and I took it and slew all, seven thousand men, boys (?), and women, and girls, for I had devoted it to the Ashtar of Kemosh.

And I took from there the altar-hearths of Y-h-w-h, and I dragged them before Kemosh. And the king of Israel built Jabaz and dwelt in it while he fought with me, and Kemosh drove him out from before me. And I took from Moab two hundred men, all its chiefs, and I led them against Jahaz and took it to add unto Dibon.

And I built Qarhar (?), the wall of the forests and the wall of the hill; and I built its gates and I built its towers, and I built the kings house, and I made the sluices (?) for the reservoir of water in the midst of the city.

And there was no cistern in the midst of the city, in Qarhar (?); and I said to all the people: "Make you each a cistern in his house;" and I cut the cuttings for Qarhar (?) with the help of the prisoners of Israel. I built Aroer and I made the highway by the Arnon. And I built Beth-bamoth, for it had been destroyed. And I built Bezer, for it was in ruins....(Chi) of Dibon were fifty, for all Dibon was obedient. And I ruled. And I ruled a hundred....in the cities which I had added to the land. And I built [Mede] and Beth-diblathan. And [as for] Beth-baal-meon, there I placed sheep-raisers....sheep of the land... And [as for] Horonaim there dwelt in it....and.....Kemosh said unto me: "Go down, fight against Horonaim," and I went down and....Kemosh in my day, and from there.....and I.......

Source: George A Barton, Archaeology and the Bible, Seventh Edition, p. 460-461CHEMOSH

Chemosh was the god of war and the national god of the Moabites. He is the same as the Babylonian god Shamash. Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 47:7,13,46). In Judges 11:24 he also appears as the god of the Ammonites. Solomon introduced, and Josiah abolished, the worship of Chemosh at Jerusalem. Chemosh was an ancient West Semitic deity, revered by the Moabites as their supreme god. Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later abolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. On the famous Moabite Stone, written by Mesha, a 9th century bc king of Moab, Chemosh received prominent mention as the deity who brought victory to the Moabites in their battle against the Israelites. When Chemosh was the chief god of the Moabites, Mesha the king of Moab dedicated a "high place" to him at Dibon. Mesha also proscibed for him the Israelite city of Nebo and part of the spoils of war. Others view Chemosh as the god of the neitherworld on the basis of an Akkadian god-list which identified him with the god Nergal. Support for this identification may be found in Ugaritic texts.

 

[GuardianShua]

I had a woman in Iraq contact me months ago on the internet. She asked me if she could use what I wrote about Allah. She also discribed herself as a political activist in Iraq. Now of course I said yes. And so thats how fires get started.

 

[GuardianShua]

I also had a news agency called antimullah.com for the Iranian people contact me. They also inquired if they could use The subject "Allah" that I posted. It has now been posted in Farsi. (The Iranian language) It will soon be sent to Iran. It will also be translated into Arabic some time soon. This is what FARS wrote to me: This was a really time consuming, arduous task. Wow!

FARSI VERSION farsiposts.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post

ENGLISH VERSION
alanpetersnewsbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/04/allah-origins

I hope everyone will find this post interresting. Please leave a brief comment and tell me if you like the artical.

 

[marysnider]

Nightflight writes:
Since this all happened 1400 years ago, I don't think it qualifies as a current event.

Hi Guys:
It's all very interesting stuff, but yes, I'm not sure it's news. I wonder if there is a better forum for it, where it will get more attention? Maybe Discussion and Debates - Non Christian Religion. It seems an active forum. Old timers here can probably help out, I think.

My efforts to read the citation at alanpetersnewsbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/04/allah-origins refer me to a 404 Page Not Found Error as well. It may also be worth noting that there was a similar thread, posted July 24.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5738890-prophecy-in-action.html

 

[GuardianShua]

Since this all happened 1400 years ago, I don't think it qualifies as a current event.

It's a current event because it is what is happening also today.

 

[GuardianShua]

Spies' Confessions Indicate Failure of US Plan for Regime Change in Iran
TEHRAN (Fars News Agency)- Secretary of Iran's state Expediency Council Mohsen Rezayee said that the confessions made by the Iranian-Americans revealed that the US is disappointed with its short-term regime change plans and is now thinking of overthrowing the Islamic Republic ruling system in the long run. This is from the fars news agency. The story has been about intellectuals using new information about the Muslim faith to distroy Islam. If that is not a current event then I dont know what is.

 

[GuardianShua]

Nightflight writes:
Since this all happened 1400 years ago, I don't think it qualifies as a current event.

Hi Guys:
It's all very interesting stuff, but yes, I'm not sure it's news. I wonder if there is a better forum for it, where it will get more attention? Maybe Discussion and Debates - Non Christian Religion. It seems an active forum. Old timers here can probably help out, I think.

Im talking about whats happening now, today. It's in relationship to headline news.

 

[GuardianShua]

Why do people spamming not have a clue about font size or paragaphs? That is just a large unreadable mess - totally in the wrong forum as well.

I dont know why the paragraphs keep dropping out, but Im not going to keep putting them back. I think your the kind of person that would complain if they were hung by a new rope. No one forced you to read the post. And If your not aware of the head line news in regard to Iran, then that is not my fault.

 

[GuardianShua]

Allah emanates from the minds of the rabid, loathsome and dead.

When I was a little boy there were things that I was taught that were not true. I thank God for not continuing in those errors. This subject is a current event, and I hope that everyone may get something good out of it.

 

[Ashur]

Allah, elloh, ellah, they are all the same words... remember that in semitic languages vowels are not written.

As for YHWH the tetragram, it is not the "Real" name of God it is more his description, I am who I am or who I will be etc...

Actually if it is forbidden to pronounce it in jewish tradition, it is simply because they do not know how to pronounce it, since they do not write down the vowels they forgot the way it should be pronounced.

YaHWeH ot YeHoWaH or.... who knows.

I doubt God actually has a name, it is simply too human, a name defines something and is therefor too restrictive.

God has many names

 

[GuardianShua]

Allah, elloh, ellah, they are all the same words... remember that in semitic languages vowels are not written.

As for YHWH the tetragram, it is not the "Real" name of God it is more his description, I am who I am or who I will be etc...

Actually if it is forbidden to pronounce it in jewish tradition, it is simply because they do not know how to pronounce it, since they do not write down the vowels they forgot the way it should be pronounced.

YaHWeH ot YeHoWaH or.... who knows.

I doubt God actually has a name, it is simply too human, a name defines something and is therefor too restrictive.

God has many names

Yes, God does have many names, but Allah (Alilah) is not one of them. In Arabic Israel is spelled Israil. That being so, then where is the i in Allah.

 

[GuardianShua]

In Aramaic God is EL. In Hebrew God is EL. In Arabic God is IL.

 

[MethodMan]

Closed - Seeking move to proper forum

 

[Nienor]

Moved to History.

 

[GuardianShua]

I heared on the news the other day that a Catholic priest wants Christians to call God, "Allah", to please the Muslims. Now what do you think of that? Should Christians call upon God by a Pagan name? I bet you know what my answer is! What was he thinking

 

[OttovonBismarck]

Sources for this nonsense would be nice. I won't hold my breath.

 

[GuardianShua]

Sources for this nonsense would be nice. I won't hold my breath.

Lots of sources were mentioned, do I need to mark them in red letters. It's a good thing your not holding your breath. Oh, are you talking about the Catholic priest? Ill go check the internet and see if I can find it.

 

[GuardianShua]

Sources for this nonsense would be nice. I won't hold my breath.

Bishop advocates calling God Allah
Long Beach Press-Telegram - Aug 18 12:13 AMDutch Catholic official criticized by Christians, Muslims. THE HAGUE, Netherlands - A Dutch Catholic bishop who once said the hungry were entitled to steal bread and advocated condom use to prevent AIDS has made headlines again, this time by saying God should be called Allah.

 

[OttovonBismarck]

I was talking about your original post.