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The origin of the "little horn" of Daniel 7 vs. the origin of the "little horn" of Daniel 8

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists' started by He Calls Me Friend, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

    United States
    Does anyone have an answer or explanation for the difference between where the "little horn" comes up from in Dan. 7 (from among the ten horns of the nondescript beast said to be Rome), compared with Dan. 8 where it comes up from among the four horns of the goat said to be Greece, OTHER THAN than the theory that in Dan. 8, it is better interpreted as coming from the "4 winds" due to agreement of gender in Hebrew?

    Further information:

    In Daniel 7 the "little horn" is said to come up from among the 7 surviving horns of the nondescript beast, which has always been identified by SDAs as Rome. But in Daniel 8, the "little horn" is said to come up from among the 4 horns of the goat, which I've been given to understand is equivalent to the leopard with four heads in Daniel 7, identified as Greece. Rome, as a "beast" is not even mentioned in Daniel 8.

    SDAs claim that:

    “four” is feminine in form both referring to horns and referring to winds

    “winds” is usually feminine, but can be masculine when it's plural (“winds”)

    “them” is always masculine

    “one” is feminine in form

    (explained in SDA Bible Commentary Vol 4 pp 840-841)

    According to Walter Shea:

    The actual rendering of the original language which is translated “out of one of them” is actually “from one from them” and when he lines up “to the four winds of the heavens (last phrase of verse 8) with the opening prepositional phrase in the original language rendering of verse 9, namely “from one from them”, the gender of the two elements from the beginning of verse 9 line up perfectly with the gender of the last two elements at the end of verse 8:

    “to the four (fem) winds (fem) of the heavens (mas)

    “from one (fem) from them (mas)”

    Here's my concerns:

    If that is the true intend of the original language, then why hasn't even one Bible translation that I'm aware of ever picked up on that and translated it to reveal that rendering, i.e. that the "little horn" in Dan 8 came from one of the directions of the compass ("four winds"), as SDAs believe, and represented both pagan and papal Rome?

    Thus my request if anyone has found a more likely explanation for why in Dan. 7 the "little horn" plainly comes up from among the "horns" of Rome, while in Dan. 8 it comes up among the "horns" of Greece.

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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    United States
    The all "translate" the terms as "four", "heaven", "horns" ,"Them" , "winds" etc ... so do we.

    The issue is not "translation"
  3. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

    United States
    I tend to agree ... but what is the issue, then? Do you have an explanation?
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Here is the text:

    Daniel 8:8 KJB - Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.​

    "Them" is a "pronoun", and thus refers back to a previous "noun", yes?

    How many options are there to choose from? Only two that I am aware of, and those two options are found in verse 8 itself:

    [1] "four notable ones" [horns]

    [2] "four winds of heaven"​

    Consider that the "four winds", simply relate to the four cardinal directions, North, South, East and West [Daniel 8:8, 11:4; Jeremiah 49:36; Zechariah 2:6, 6:5; Ezra 37:9; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 KJB]. One can also think of a whirlwind with four arms, stretching out, like a hurricane.

    Others choose to go with "horn" out of a "horn" and identify that Rome had some connection to Greece [Language [of the NT even; Acts 21:37 KJB, etc], philosophy, etc], and consider the "brass" claws of the Dreadful terrible beast [Daniel 7:19 KJB] and make the connection to from Babylon to Pergamum to Rome [such as Stephen Bohr does [see page 21 PDF] - http://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/All of Pastor Bohr's Study Notes/BSIR7T.pdf ].

    Either way, Rome came from the "North" in a certain sense [and is also to the "west" in another sense, but that is a longer study on another area of Daniel]. Both can fit the scenario. I like the "four winds" option better [personally, as I see it as an easier in explanation], but I also consider what Bohr has to say as well and do not throw it out.

    Rome [King of the "North" for awhile] is counterpart to Egypt [to the south; Pharoah, King of the "South", for a while, and later moves into spiritual counterparts]].

    Alexander and Greece was King/Kingdom of the "west", while Medo-Persia and Kings, were King/Kingdom of the "East". Most persons forget about these two.

    For an overall picture of Daniel 8's structure, for instance,

    Daniel 8's “the vision”- Daniel 8's “the interpretation”

    Daniel 8:1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - beginning
    Daniel 8:2-4 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:20 - - - - Media and Persia/Ram
    Daniel 8:5-7 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:21 - - - - Greecia, First King/He Goat
    Daniel 8:8 - -- - - - - - - - Daniel 8:22 - - - - Division of Greecia/4 Horns of He Goat
    Daniel 8:9 - - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:23[a.] - - Rome Pagan/“king of fierce countenance”
    Daniel 8:10 - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:23[b.] - - Rome Papal/“understanding dark sentences”
    Daniel 8:11-12 - - - - - - Daniel 8:24-26- - - increase of Papal Rome, Deadly wound,&c
    ending - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 8:27 - - - - -

    Moreover, here is the parallelism of Daniel 8 & 10,11-12

    Daniel 8's “the interpretation”- - - - - Daniel 10/11/12 “the interpretation”

    Daniel 8:1 - beginning - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 10:1-21,11:1
    Daniel 8:20 - Media and Persia/Ram - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 11:2
    Daniel 8:21 - Greecia, First King/He Goat- - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 11:3
    Daniel 8:22 - Division of Greecia/4 Horns of He Goat - - - - Daniel 11:4,5-19
    Daniel 8:23[a] - Rome Pagan/“king of fierce countenance” - Daniel 11:20, [transition], 21-30
    Daniel 8:23 - Rome Papal/“understanding dark sentences” - Daniel 11:31-39 [1,290 1,260 1,335]
    Daniel 8:24-26- increase of Papal Rome, Deadly wound,&c -Daniel 11:40[a] [enlarge] 40-45
    Daniel 8:27 - ending - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Daniel 12:1-3, [enlarge]​

    Daniel 8:8-9, is paralleled in Daniel 8:23 and Daniel 11:4 -

    Daniel 8:23 KJB - And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    [ties to Deuteronomy 28:50 and Rome KJB]
    Daniel 11:4 KJB - And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.​

    Daniel 8 KJB is steeped in Sanctuary language, from the regular day to day service and the year end time service, the Day of Atonement, for it speaks about a “ram”, a “he-goat”, “four horns”, “the daily”, the “sanctuary”, the “prince of Princes” [High priest, Jesus Christ], the “host”, “saint”, “Gabriel” [the covering cherub who replaced Lucifer, who stands “in the presence of God” [Luke 1:19 KJB]], “transgression” [sin] and “cleansed”, and “truth” [Law, etc], and the 2,300 “evening and morning/s”, “many days”, and “time of the end”, “last end” and etc.

    In the sanctuary services [Psalms 77:13 KJB], the cleanse part has to do with the transition from the daily to the yearly [day of atonement] in type and antitype, even as Daniel 8 refers to in imagery [Ram [offering], He-goat [sin offering], Four Horns [as in the golden altar] for making atonement, in both place and people], see Leviticus 16:

    Leviticus 16:2,13,14,15 - mercy seat [and cherubim thereon]
    Leviticus 16:2-9,11-21,23-34 - High Priest, ministration
    Leviticus 16:3,5 - ram
    Leviticus 16:4,24,26,27,28,30 - washing/burning, thus cleansing
    Leviticus 16:5,7,8,15,24 - [Lord's] goat, sin offering
    Leviticus 16:5,9,10,15,16,21,27,30,34 - transgression
    Leviticus 16:5,6,7,15,16,17,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,28,29,30,31,33,34 - people of God, congregation, camp
    Leviticus 16:6,17,20 - atonement [so also Leviticus 23]
    Leviticus 16:12,13,18 - with four horns outside on altar of sacrifice and four horns inside golden altar of incense [Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc, Revelation 9:13-15, Oct. 22, 1844]
    Leviticus 16:16,19,30,33 - uncleanness of persons and places, needing to be cleansed [vs 19, “cleanse”]
    Leviticus 16:34 - end of the daily [evening and morning], now the once in the year
    Thus what Daniel 8:14 KJB, reveals is the transition of Christ Jesus [Daniel 8:13 KJB, “certain saint”, the wonderful numberer, who numbers the hairs, stars, sands, kingdoms, times and boundaries, etc] in His Great High Priestly role, from one phase [antitypical daily] to another [antitypical yearly] in the Great Heavenly Sanctuary above, per Daniel, Matthew, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, etc, and also deals with the peoples of that time [1844] afterward, in their own related cleansing. Thus sanctuary, and host.

    Daniel 8:1,4,6,7,20 - Ram
    Daniel 8:3,5,6,7,8,9,20,21 - horns [8, 4 outside [altar sacrifice], 4 inside [altar incense' -- 2 on ram, 1 on he-got, 4 on he-goat, 1 from winds]
    Daniel 8:5,8,21 - He Goat
    Daniel 8:10,13,24,25 - the holy people of God
    Daniel 8:11,13,14,25 - certain saint [High Priest Jesus]
    Daniel 8:12,13,14,24,25 - transgression
    Daniel 8:13,15-17 - one saint speaking, and another saint said - covering cherubims/angels [Gabriel and 'Herald']
    Daniel 8:11,12,13-14,26 - daily ongoing [evening and morning] and finally ended, yearly commenced
    Daniel 8:14 - cleansed

    more in Daniel 9-12 KJB where the atonement is found, which is the re-explanation and expansion of Daniel 8.​

    There are two sets of 'four horns' in Daniel 8 KJB.

    The first set of 'four':

    [1]two horns” of the Ram
    [2] the “great” or “notable” “horn” of the He-goat
    [3] the “little horn” out of the four winds​

    The second set of 'four':

    [1] the “four notable ones” that came out of the He-goat after the “great” or “notable” “horn”.​

    There are 8 horns in the sanctuary service.

    [1] 4 horns on the altar of sacrifice [Exodus 27:2, 38:2 KJB]
    [2] 4 horns on the altar of incense [Exodus 30:2, 37:25,26 KJB]
    Does that help any?
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  5. drjean

    drjean Senior Veteran Supporter

    United States
    some prophecy experts believe this: Daniel sees the Antichrist as the “little horn” arising from among the ten horns of the last world empire as well as the “king of fierce countenance” (Dan. 7:8[​IMG]; Dan. 8:23[​IMG]).
  6. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

    United States
    You are going to have give me a few months to digest all this information before I can honestly tell you if what you have shared "helps any". :~) But thank you very much for your input.

    You have, though, verified that you hold to the traditional SDA interpretation of "them" referring to "winds" rather than "horns", so that answers that aspect.

    It still appears to me, in any translation of the Bible, that the more literal interpretation is that "them" refers to "horns" rather than "winds" (or "directions) that the horns themselves "went toward" since direction doesn't see influence any of the other beast appearances in Daniel 7 or 8.

    But the option of the "little horn" of Daniel 8 being Rome vanishes, however, if one insists it came from the "horns" of Greece because one look at a map of ancient Greece instantly reveals that the "insignificant little town" located in what we know as Italy and said to be the birth place of the Roman Empire, certainly was never part of the ancient Grecian empire. In other words, I don't know how anyone can explain how "the little horn" in Daniel 8 came out of one of the horns of Greece if one is going to insist that the "little horn" is Rome.
  7. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

    United States
    Yes, Daniel 7 does give that sequence very plainly. Daniel 8 (specifically v 9) not so much. Here "the little horn" is said to come from "them" ... obviously referring back to verse 8, and most logically taken to mean the 4 horns of an empire that, if we compare it with Daniel 7, is Greece, and certainly not the last world empire as we know Rome defeated Greece.
  8. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    You are wlecome.

    Well let me put it this way. I hold to both, but lean to the winds moreso, until I see a better connection. Winds would be the more current application rather then the horns, which is the older application. I see merit in both positions actually, and am more 51/49 split, and can even see how both can apply together [as "them" might refer to both horns/winds together]. I go with truth and evidence. For now the winds are my priority placeholder, and the horns as in the background, until I come to greater understanding. Also if you read John Nevins Andrews [or James White] material - The Sanctuary and Twenty-three Hundred Days, Page 13 -- Ellen G. White Writings , etc, it makes a pretty good case for the Romans taking over the Greecian lands, and thus seen to be coming out of that Empire in a small manner and enlarges as it goes towards Jerusalem.

    For instance, that which is cited as historical, in the apocryphal 1 Maccabees 8:9-10 [Bishops Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 8:9 Bishops Bible 1568 - Againe, how they perceauing that the Grekes were comming to vexe them,

    1 Maccabees 8:10 Bishops Bible 1568 - Sent against them a captayne of an hoast, which gaue them battaile, slue many of them, led away their wyues and children captiue, spoyled them, toke possession of their lande, and destroyed their strong holdes, and subdued them to be their bondmen, vnto this day.
    I would not know what you mean by a more "literal" interpetation. The "them" is simply a pronoun, leading back to a noun. I can only see two choices [maybe a third if both combined] from English, just from the two verses 8-9. If we search the wider context, we may come to a greater and better understanding. It would be rash to simply eliminate one of the two, without a greater weight from God's word.

    We can know historically that the "little horn" in no way can be "Antiochus Epiphanes IV", from the context itself in Daniel 8 and 11, even from the history. See John Nevins Andres, A.T. Jones, James White, etc for an Seventh-day Adventist persepctive in that history, or consider even from an apocryphal one, just in Maccabees itself. I can cite those texts and sources upon request.

    Rome would not "vanish" as the "little horn", even if it were to come from one of the 4 other horns. This was the point I was attemping to make in regards the Dreadful Terrible beast having "claws" of "brass". There is such a thing as the Greco-Roman era, and their intermingling, with speech, philosophy, etc. There is also the matter of Revelation 13:2 KJB, in which the Sea Beast [Papal] has the "leopard" [Greece, who cannot change it's ways, nor be rid of its spotted garment/skin, deceitful in cunning, laying in wait, ambush, immortal soul theology, sophism, etc] as the body, the main structure, but the beast itself is Roman, and given power by such. It speaks with the Mouth of Lion, and thus has the heart of Babylon and Mystery religion [out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaeth], and its feet of the bear [Medo-Persian], it walks in Mithriasm and claming infallibility [law of the Medes and Persians could not be changed once enacted], etc. Thus from Daniel 7, 8, 11 and Revelation 13 [also in the Gospels, Helenists, the NT language, etc], we can see Greece influence on Rome, and that Rome had indeed conquered that nation, as seen in Daniel 2, 7 and 8. The Head of the He-Goat was more than likely Pella [Capital city] in Macedon, which is where Rome assaulted:

    "... In 168 BC, it [Pella] was sacked by the Romans, and its treasury transported to Rome, and Livy reported how the city looked in 167 BC to Lucius Aemilius Paulus Macedonicus, the Roman who defeated Perseus at the battle of Pydna: ..." - Pella - Wikipedia

    Thus, from the standpoint of Jerusalem, Rome would seem to be coming out of the Greecian empire.

    Just take it slow. Let's see if we can eliminate possibilities, such as Antiochus Epiphanes IV, from an Biblical and historical perspective. Then we can consider other possibilities, and see if they match to the pieces given in scripture [KJB].

    In the end, I cannot make anyone believe as I presently do, only show what I know, and if I am in error at any point, look to be corrected and so have the truth, to share with others.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  9. He Calls Me Friend

    He Calls Me Friend New Member

    United States
    You've definitely given me some food for thought here ... certainly a broader approach to the subject than I've heard before ... and it is much appreciated. You may well be on the right track ... I will give the material you have presented some serious study. Thank you.
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Sure, no worries, brother [?], as the question you raise is a good question. I have personally considered such things in my own studies, for I want to have a thus saith the LORD for what I believe, and to be able to explain such to others, by the grace of God. These things in Daniel are important, as even Jesus referred to them specifically [Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14 KJB].

    I am going to post some material on why Antiochus IV Epiphanes fails to fulfill the prophecy in its specifics, just to present some further materials, and for the consumption of all. I could also present some more historial material in connection with the prohecies of Daniel 8 & 11 also as time allows, to give a wider scope yet still to this subject.
  11. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Daniel 7 is intimately connected to Daniel 8, notice the first verse of Daniel 8:


    Daniel 8:1 KJB - In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.​

    Daniel is very chiastic [even as sister White herself is, examples upon request], not only in chapter, but so in verse, for instance, in Daniel 8:1, in parallelism [chiasm] it reads [brackets in bold added for helpful clarity]:​

    [A1] “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar ...”

    [B1] “... a vision appeared ...”

    [C1] “... unto me [Daniel] ...”

    [C2] “... even unto me Daniel ...”
    [B2] “... after that [vision] which appeared unto me ...”
    [A2] “... at the first [year of the reign of king Belshazzar, in Daniel 7:1].”
    Daniel 7:1 KJB - In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
    Therefore, it is not as if Daniel 8 is isolated from the rest of Daniel 1-7, and the kingdoms and events therein. Jesus, in the NT, often gives several parables to explain the same events [shee and goats, wheat and tares, wise and foolish, etc., etc. and thus "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto ..."], but from differing angles, or under differing symbols. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Thus the visions of Daniel 2,7,8 and so on also in Revelation, are all intimately linked [to be demonstrated below *], and in general repeat the history, in differing ways, while also expanding on certain areas in each succeeding vision/dream.

    You may consider the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation in part here, as well as the structure of Daniel and Revelation here:

    The Character that will Stand [final events, Daniel 12, Revelation 17, etc]:
    Link 1-http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=10930346204581685709

    Daniel and Revelation Structure [Psalms 77:13 KJB, verse by verse demonstrated]:
    Link 2-http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=02188528893778979904


    Just as Daniel and Revelation are built in the Structure of the 7 Branch Candlestick [Psalms 77:13 KJB], so too are the Feasts themselves:


    The First Book Of Daniel
    Daniel 4:1-37; Daniel 3:1-30; Daniel 2:1-49; Daniel 1:1-21; Daniel 7:1-28; Daniel 6:1-28; Daniel 5:1-31

    In order [all things to be explained in the plan of Redemption]:

    Daniel 4:1-37 -- King, Everlasting Gospel, Saved

    Daniel 3:1-30 -- Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment

    Daniel 2:1-49 -- Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven

    Daniel 1:1-21 -- Captivity [sin] to Release [redemption]
    Daniel 7:1-28 -- Vision, Kingdoms Of Earth To Heaven
    Daniel 6:1-28 -- Law, Test, Worship, 1st Amendment
    Daniel 5:1-31-- King, Everlasting Gospel, Lost

    The Revelation Of Jesus Christ
    Rev. 1:1-5:14; Rev. 6:1-8:1; Rev. 8:2-11:19; Rev. 12:1-14:20; Rev. 15:1-19:21; Rev. 20:1-15; Rev. 21:1-22:21

    Revelation 1:1-5:14 -- The 7 Churches

    Revelation 6:1-8:1 -- The 7 Seals

    Revelation 8:2-11:19 -- The 7 Trumpets

    Revelation 12:1-14:20 -- The Great Controversy
    Revelation 15:1 - 19:21 -- The 7 Last Plagues
    Revelation 20:1-15 -- The 1,000 Years
    Revelation 21:1-22:21 -- The New Jerusalem

    The Feasts of the LORD

    1 - 1 - 1 - 3 - 7 - 7 - 7

    The Passover (1st Month (Abib), 14th day, at even) - Leviticus 23:4-5 KJB

    Unleavened Bread (1st Month (Abib), 15th day unto 21st day (7 days), a yearly feastal sabbath) - Leviticus 23:6-8 KJB

    Firstfruits/Wavesheaf (1st Month (Abib), 16th day, on the morrow after the sabbath) - Leviticus 23:9-14 KJB

    Pentecost/Feast of Weeks (3rd Month (Sivan), 50 days (7 complete Sabbath's (7*7=49) and unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath (49+1=50)) - Leviticus 23:15-22 KJB
    Trumpets (7th Month (Ethanim), 1st day) - Leviticus 23:23-25 KJB
    Atonement (7th Month (Ethanim), 10th day, yearly festal sabbath, in the 9th day, even unto even) - Leviticus 23:26-32 KJB
    Booths/Tabernacles/Ingathering (7th Month (Ethanim), 15th day unto 21st day (7 days), and an 8th day (the 1st and 8th being a yearly festal sabbath)) - Leviticus 23:33-44 KJB

    [Side note] The "five months" of Revelation 9:5,6,10; Genesis 7:24, 8:3; Luke 1:24 deal with anti-typical feast time, from the days of Pentecost unto Trumpets, notice:


    Passover - [1st month, day 14]
    Unleavened Bread [1 month, day 15-21]
    Firstfruits/Wavesheaf [1 month, day 16]

    Pentecost [3 month, day 5ish]

    [Now, catch this, the "five months" are antitypical Feast time ...]

    Pentecost began in the Month 3, now let's count:

    Month 3 [Pentecost] = 1

    Month 4 [no feasts] = 2
    Month 5 [no feasts] = 3
    Month 6 [no feasts] = 4
    Month 7 [Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles] = 5 [months, inclusive]

    Trumpets [7 month, day 1]
    Day of Atonement [7 month, day 10] [YOU ARE HERE in ANTI-TYPOLOGICAL FEAST TIME]

    Tabernacles/Booths/Ingathering [7 month, day 15-21,22]
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Looking at Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Epimanes, the mad one], and the failure of this person to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn':

    "... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    There are some who attempt, from the apocryphal books of Maccabees, to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophcies of Daniel 8's 'little horn', but now let us examine that source and see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defeneded.

    For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

    "... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    It only gets worse from here on out... as even according to history he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father Antiochus III had, etc.

    A lone Roman ambassador [Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate] and some guards put him to flight in Egypt [ca. 168 BC], rescuing Egypt completely out of his hands:

    "... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    Even the Jews [Judas Maccabees, etal. according to the apocryphal books of [1-4] Maccabees] threw him [his armies] out of Jerusalem, in the Maccabean revolt. And nowhere could it be said that he waxed exceeding great in the east [Media-Persian, area], dying there in great heaviness [sorrow/sadness] and dishonour [1 Maccabees 6:3-6, Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

    1 Maccabees 6:6 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And how that Lysias went foorth first with a great power, and was dryuen away of the Iewes, how that they had wonne the victory, and gotten great goodes out of the hoastes that perished,​

    Further more:

    1 Maccabees 6:8 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So it chaunced, that when the king heard these wordes, he was afrayde, & greeued very sore: Wherefore he layde him downe vpon his bed, and fell sicke for very sorowe, and all because it had not happened as he had deuised.

    1 Maccabees 6:9 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And there continued he long: for his griefe was euer more and more, so that he sawe he must needes dye.

    1 Maccabees 6:10 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore he sent for all his friendes, & saide vnto them: The sleepe is gone fro myne eyes for the very sorowe and vexation of heart that I haue.

    2 Maccabees 9:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - At the same time came Antiochus againe with dishonour out of Persia.

    2 Maccabees 9:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For when he came to Persepolis, and vndertoke to robbe the temple, and to subdue the citie, the people ranne together and defended them selues, insomuch that he and his were faine to flee with shame: and so after that flight it happened that Antiochus came againe with dishonour.​

    and, by his own words, as given in 1 Maccabees, he dies, a miserable failure, in a “straunge lande” of the “east”, or just outside of Persia [and apparently, whose body, did Phillip bring down into Egypt, 2 Maccabees 9:29 Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - I know that these troubles are come vpon me for the same cause: and behold, I must dye with great sorowe in a straunge lande.

    1 Maccabees 6:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So the king Antiochus died there, in the hundred fourtie and nine yere.

    2 Maccabees 9:28 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Thus that murtherer and blasphemer of God was sore smitten: and like as he had intreated other men, so he died a miserable death in a straunge countrey vpon a mountayne.​

    Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

    2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

    2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

    2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

    2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

    2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

    2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

    2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

    2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

    2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

    2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

    2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

    2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

    2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

    2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

    2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.​
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

    Daniel 8:9 KJB - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].​

    The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

    [1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.​

    [2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,​

    [3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.​

    1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

    1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,​

    Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.

    Looking further, in Daniel 8:23 KJB, we read of further identification, which cannot possibly be fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​

    For [1], Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was not in the “latter time”, but in the very early midst of it, being about the 7th King [175-164 BC], among many more [unto Antiochus XIII Asiaticus, 69-64 BC, some 100 years later], see “The House of Seleucus” image:


    And [2], the “transgressors” [of the covenant and Law of God] are the Jews, in the days of Jesus, in the time of the Romans, for He said [KJB]:

    Matthew 23:32 KJB - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.​

    Their [nation of Israel] cup of iniquity was not yet full during the era of Greece, but it was soon to be in the era of Rome [and their Temple and city to be destroyed], for their 490 years [Daniel 9, 70 weeks] was almost up [and that generation [AD 31], within 40 years later, would see it, AD 70], some sooner than others [like the Highpriests, etc]. Paul speaks about this further:

    1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJB - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​

    And [3], the “king of fierce countenance” is a fulfillment of the “Iron” [Daniel 2:33,40, 7:7,19,23 KJB], Roman Empire [whose standard was the 'eagle', and came from afar, from the west, and besieged them in all their lands], as it is given in scripture [KJB] itself:

    Deuteronomy 28:48 KJB - Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:49 KJB - The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

    Deuteronomy 28:50 KJB - A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

    Deuteronomy 28:51 KJB - And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:52 KJB - And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:53 KJB - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:​

    Also [4], the “understanding dark sentences” deals with the second major phase of the Roman element [as per Daniel 8:10 KJB], that of Papal Rome, for it means, according to scripture [KJB], to speak and understand parables, proverbs, ie religious/spiritual matters:

    Psalms 49:4 KJB - I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

    Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

    Proverbs 1:6 KJB - To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

    Ezekiel 17:2 KJB - Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

    Matthew 13:34 KJB - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

    Mark 4:13 KJB - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

    Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.​

    See also “mystery” and “mysteries” in Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Romans 11:25, 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32, 6:19; Colossians 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9,16; Revelation 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.

    See also “riddle” in Numbers 12:8; Judges 14:12-19.

    See also “hard questions” in 1 Kings 10:1; 2 Chronicles 9:1.

    See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Habakkuk 2:6;p.

    To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols,

    John 16:29 KJB - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.​

    Thus, as it is written,

    Proverbs 25:2 KJB - [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.​

    We are those “kings”.
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Just looking at the discrepancies of Maccabees, the apocryphal [non-Scriptural KJB] materials in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

    "... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

    1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

    a) Location: Persia - 6:5
    b) Place: in bed - 6:8
    c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
    reversals - 6:8, 9
    d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
    e) Dies: 6:16
    f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16​

    14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

    15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

    16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.​

    2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

    a) Location: Persia - 1:13
    b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
    wedding - 1:13 - 15
    c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
    the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
    d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
    of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
    e) Dies: 1:16
    f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16​

    14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

    15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

    16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.​

    3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

    a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
    b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
    c) Cause:

    1. God's curse on him - 9:5
    2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7
    3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10
    d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9
    e) Dies: 9:28
    f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and
    then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
    g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28
    28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

    We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet, but I will leave those for now, and return to Daniel 8 & 11's history as time allows ...
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Looking at the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Kings, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes in connection to the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13-14,26:

    Seleucus/Antiochus [King of the North [for a time], that is to the North of Jerusalem – Babylon [Syria]]

    [1] Seleucus I Nicator [Victor] 358 – 281 BC

    [2] Antiochus I Soter [Saviour] 281 – 261 BC [born 286 BC]

    [3] Antiochus II Theos [God] 261 – 246 BC

    [4] Seleucus II Callinicus [Beautiful Victor] 246 – 225 BC

    [5] Seleucus III Soter Ceraunus [Saviour/Thunder] 225 – 223 BC [born 243 BC]

    [6] Antiochus III The Great 222 – 187 BC [born 241 BC]​


    Ptolemy [King of the South [for a time], that is to the South of Jerusalem - Egypt]

    [1] Ptolemy I Soter I 323 – 282 BC

    [2] Ptolemy II Philadelphus 282 – 246 BC

    [3] Ptolemy III Euergetes 246 – 222 BC

    [4] Ptolemy IV Philopator 222 – 205/4 BC

    [5] Ptolemy V Epiphanes 205/4 – 180 BC

    [6] Ptolemy VI Philometor 180 – 145 BC ...”​

    Now let's eliminate the claim that the 2,300 days are mere days, rather than the many years that they are, in their proper context, as some like to rely upon commentaries of men [Jeremiah 17:5 KJB], rather than on the scripture [KJB] itself.

    Furthermore, we can compare what Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Greek king] did in the approximate 3 years [167 BC – 164 BC] in Judaea, with the specific amount of time given in the 2,300 “days” [Daniel 8:14 KJB], for the “vision” of the “evening and morning” [Daniel 8:26 KJB], [if we bypass the fact that the “vision” of the “daily” begins in the Persian empire, when the Temple itself was restored to full use] and see clearly it does not fit at all, for 2,300 [physical days] is 6 years and somewhat over 4 months [140 days]

    [some erroneously say it rather equeals equals 6 years, three months and 18 days seems to be based upon the commentary of John Gill [Calvinistic] at Daniel 8:14, and his non-scriptural two conclusions [“... from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae ...” and/or “... others begin from the defection of the people from the pure religion by Menelaus, Anno 141 …”, and thus which will peeople who cite John Calvin as authority in this subscribe to specifically, so we may test it historically?], yet scripturally [KJB] and especially in prophecy, a month is 30 days, and a year 360 days, [both demonstrable upon request]].

    30 days = 1 month, 12 months [360 days] = 1 year:

    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    2160 days = 6 years

    2300 – 2160 = 140 days left

    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    120 days = 4 months

    140 – 120 = 20 days left.​

    Thus even when taken to be normal days as incorrectly supposed, physically, 6 years, 4 months and 20 days, according to the scriptural 30 day month and 360 day year. Yet Daniel 8 is prophecy, yes?, and would therefore not go by the standard solar year of 365.25 of today, but would indeed follow the day for a year principle found through scripture [Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6 KJB, see connection in Daniel 9, the prayer]?


    Others cite the commentary of “Albert Barnes” as authority, who himself says in his notes [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, Daniel 8:14], cites Josephus, the turncoat to the Jews, who never accepted Jesus Christ that history is aware of:

    “... The time mentioned by Josephus is three years exactly from the time when “their Divine worship was fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use,” until the time when the lamps were lighted again, and the worship restored, for he says that the one event happened precisely three years after the other, on the same day of the month - Ant. b. xii. ch. vii. Section 6. In his Jewish Wars, however, b. i. ch. i. Section 1, he says that Antiochus “spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months.” ...”​

    Where is the supposed 6 years +, even by a source they cite [like Albert Barnes, etc]? For instance:

    “... The 2,300-day prophecy witnessed an amazing fulfillment during the terrifying reign of Antiochus. According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be six years, three months, and 18 days. This is the time period in which Antiochus took the daily sacrifices away, and at the end of the 2300 days, was eventually defeated. ...”​

    Such persons say “2300” but, even given their own timing [borrowed from John Gill or even Barnes] , “... six years, three months, and 18 days ...” does not fit specifically with any given historical timeframe in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes, in any given historical source [and John Gill's commentary doesn't help either, as he speculates without evidence in the last portion of the time, and does not use scripture to explain the scripture at this point, and does not follow the scriptural 30 day months, 360 day years].

    Any may look for themselves, and I will be awaiting for such a source to be given in demonstration, and to see the work shown in the time.

    Finally the word “eventually”, in that statement, is very telling also, for it is clear that they presently have a sliding time scale/events and not a precise one, which is akin to Fordian 'apotelesmatics' [a nonscriptural; and nonhistorical made up adhoc to suit one's own personal interpretations because they cannot get their timeline to line up].

    However, if one is going to go by commentaries on the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc, then I can cite those which teach the 2,300 days [evening mornings] are years.

    For instance [a sampling, there are others still]:

  16. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

    I see no problem with the little horn figuratively coming up from among the Grecian beast as we read in Revelation 13:2 that the beast of Revelation was"like unto a leopard". It could of been recorded that the little horn came up from the Babylonians,Medes/Persians, Grecian's and Romans. All are Biblically supported.
  17. reddogs

    reddogs Contributor Supporter

    I would think so