The Organizational Church vs The Relational Church

[timf]

Modern man is so inculcated in organizational systems such as school, government, corporations, and even church that it is difficult even to imagine any other sort of life. A friend who was a seminary graduate was once a little irritated with my criticisms of contemporary church that he asked, “OK, what would your system be?”. I found I was unable to describe how I saw Christianity is “system” terms.

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

One example of how this plays out today was an elderly woman my wife and I chatted with while visiting a church many years ago. I asked here how she was doing financially and she said she was having some difficulty. We were able to help her out a little. What struck me was that she had been a member of that church for 30 years and even her best friend did not know her well enough to know of the trouble she was having. I am sure the church leaders would have been angry to know that she had not contacted them for help. They were not bad people, just ignorant because of the system they had come to rely on and which they assumed was capable of dealing with any problems was in fact only a machine.

I am perhaps sensitive to this missing element of contemporary Christianity because no one in the church I grew up in knew my parents were alcoholics. I have met many other people who have suffered in painful marriages or other tragic circumstances and no one in their churches ever knew them well enough to know of their difficulty. Most modern church defenders would fault the people for not taking advantage of counseling or other services the church might provide. I see blaming the victims as a poor excuse.

Relationships are messy, time consuming, and often present an almost never ending series of problems. However, Christians are told repeatedly to love one another. This is perhaps because we are so un-loveable.

Our primary relationship (the family) has been increasingly decimated since the Industrial Revolution. The idea that one’s best friends would be siblings and cousins is impractical when most people only have one sibling and are geographically distant and disconnected from cousins, aunts and uncles, and grandparents.

The superficiality of modern relationships can be seen with social media. People often face a dilemma, they feel the need for deeper personal relationships, yet they recoil from the difficulty such an investment in other people would require.

I see Satan as advancing the collectivization of the world for his purposes. He has even used the church to build an increasingly collectivist world so that he will be able to leverage his influence through these systems. As Christians we are supposed to be aware of his schemes. However, we all too often find a comfortable complacency with the course of the world.

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

A free pdf booklet on relational Christianity
http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/relational christianity v1.pdf

Web pages for cell phone viewing
Christian Pioneer - Current blog

 

[Albion]

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

So the "bottom line" would be that the institutional church is important, but individuals need to be mindful of their own responsibilities as disciples of Christ.

Both of these are prominently presented in Scripture for our guidance.

 

[Tolworth John]

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

we read in the epistles that the early church was organised with pastors, deacons, ishops etc etc and how you view these roles is often conditional on ones view of church government.

These church were small, meeting in peoples homes and they would have known far mor about each other and what they were doing then we generally do.

Church life is both organisational, with structures and procedures etc but it is also relational.
Fellowship means sharing with one another.
If we don't know about each others joys and tears how can we share in them or provide help and support?

 

[sandman]

Modern man is so inculcated in organizational systems such as school, government, corporations, and even church that it is difficult even to imagine any other sort of life. A friend who was a seminary graduate was once a little irritated with my criticisms of contemporary church that he asked, “OK, what would your system be?”. I found I was unable to describe how I saw Christianity is “system” terms.

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

One example of how this plays out today was an elderly woman my wife and I chatted with while visiting a church many years ago. I asked here how she was doing financially and she said she was having some difficulty. We were able to help her out a little. What struck me was that she had been a member of that church for 30 years and even her best friend did not know her well enough to know of the trouble she was having. I am sure the church leaders would have been angry to know that she had not contacted them for help. They were not bad people, just ignorant because of the system they had come to rely on and which they assumed was capable of dealing with any problems was in fact only a machine.

I am perhaps sensitive to this missing element of contemporary Christianity because no one in the church I grew up in knew my parents were alcoholics. I have met many other people who have suffered in painful marriages or other tragic circumstances and no one in their churches ever knew them well enough to know of their difficulty. Most modern church defenders would fault the people for not taking advantage of counseling or other services the church might provide. I see blaming the victims as a poor excuse.

Relationships are messy, time consuming, and often present an almost never ending series of problems. However, Christians are told repeatedly to love one another. This is perhaps because we are so un-loveable.

Our primary relationship (the family) has been increasingly decimated since the Industrial Revolution. The idea that one’s best friends would be siblings and cousins is impractical when most people only have one sibling and are geographically distant and disconnected from cousins, aunts and uncles, and grandparents.

The superficiality of modern relationships can be seen with social media. People often face a dilemma, they feel the need for deeper personal relationships, yet they recoil from the difficulty such an investment in other people would require.

I see Satan as advancing the collectivization of the world for his purposes. He has even used the church to build an increasingly collectivist world so that he will be able to leverage his influence through these systems. As Christians we are supposed to be aware of his schemes. However, we all too often find a comfortable complacency with the course of the world.

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

A free pdf booklet on relational Christianity
http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/relational christianity v1.pdf

Web pages for cell phone viewing
Christian Pioneer - Current blog

While I am thankful to any institution that teaches Gods Word …I could offer my criticism as well…but that is unfruitful….However, I will point out a few flaws with congregation, along with a biblical solution that is very simple, yet unlikely to be implemented.

Most churches are built on quantity of members …but quantity doesn’t necessarily equate to quality. There is no way to effectively minister to individuals, or individual needs, with a large congregation.

As Tolworth John correctly stated the first century church established the home as their fellowship base from which the Word of God so mightily grew and effectively spread….below are some of the scriptures which substantiate that.

Act 5:42, Act 8:3, Act 10:2, Act 16:31&32, Act 18:8, Act 21:8, Act 28:30&31, Rom 16:3-5, 1Co 1:11, 1Co 16:19, Phlm 1:2

Many of today’s home fellowships have a structure similar to a tree. (as someone told me several years ago) The individual believers are leaves, which meet in the home called twigs (I think), overseen by a branch coordinator, separated by states (or areas) which are limbs, and are ultimately coordinated and fed by the trunk. That may not be absolutely correct, but relatively close. Not all home fellowships follow that analogy, but many have some similar pattern….

But regardless, if we were to follow the outreach of the first century church (ekklēsia) it would be a whole different ballgame and we would take the World Series every time…. We (collectively) are the called out, not a building or a religion…we are the church (ekklēsia). In all seriousness the structured church (buildings) that we have today, should not even exist…

Many times, people talk about themselves (individually) as being the temple. But in the NT (context determines) the body of Christ (the one body) is the temple… and the individual is referred to as the tabernacle.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:


Times have changed …. we have social media now..
Well, God and His Word have not changed ….and I would say God was sufficiently more successful with His plan than we are today.


…End of rant

 

[Clare73]

Modern man is so inculcated in organizational systems such as school, government, corporations, and even church that it is difficult even to imagine any other sort of life. A friend who was a seminary graduate was once a little irritated with my criticisms of contemporary church that he asked, “OK, what would your system be?”. I found I was unable to describe how I saw Christianity is “system” terms.

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

One example of how this plays out today was an elderly woman my wife and I chatted with while visiting a church many years ago. I asked here how she was doing financially and she said she was having some difficulty. We were able to help her out a little. What struck me was that she had been a member of that church for 30 years and even her best friend did not know her well enough to know of the trouble she was having. I am sure the church leaders would have been angry to know that she had not contacted them for help. They were not bad people, just ignorant because of the system they had come to rely on and which they assumed was capable of dealing with any problems was in fact only a machine.

I am perhaps sensitive to this missing element of contemporary Christianity because no one in the church I grew up in knew my parents were alcoholics. I have met many other people who have suffered in painful marriages or other tragic circumstances and no one in their churches ever knew them well enough to know of their difficulty. Most modern church defenders would fault the people for not taking advantage of counseling or other services the church might provide. I see blaming the victims as a poor excuse.

Relationships are messy, time consuming, and often present an almost never ending series of problems. However, Christians are told repeatedly to love one another. This is perhaps because we are so un-loveable.

Our primary relationship (the family) has been increasingly decimated since the Industrial Revolution. The idea that one’s best friends would be siblings and cousins is impractical when most people only have one sibling and are geographically distant and disconnected from cousins, aunts and uncles, and grandparents.

The superficiality of modern relationships can be seen with social media. People often face a dilemma, they feel the need for deeper personal relationships, yet they recoil from the difficulty such an investment in other people would require.

I see Satan as advancing the collectivization of the world for his purposes. He has even used the church to build an increasingly collectivist world so that he will be able to leverage his influence through these systems. As Christians we are supposed to be aware of his schemes. However, we all too often find a comfortable complacency with the course of the world.

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

A free pdf booklet on relational Christianity
http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/relational christianity v1.pdf

Web pages for cell phone viewing
Christian Pioneer - Current blog

Find you a good Baptist church, they are both.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

One thing to consider is Dunbar's number, that we can maintain about 150 individual relationships. A lot of churches are much larger than this which means that individuals who need assistance may not know who to talk to. One thing I liked about the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was the elder zone. Elders served as assistants to the pastor and typically were assigned up to 20 families in their care. While I was an elder, I tried to meet with those families at least once a quarter, which most often was a 5-10 minute meeting after or before the service. If there were concerns, I could then bring them up to the monthly pastoral meeting or to a parish council member to contact them for additional help.

 

[HappyHope]

Modern man is so inculcated in organizational systems such as school, government, corporations, and even church that it is difficult even to imagine any other sort of life. A friend who was a seminary graduate was once a little irritated with my criticisms of contemporary church that he asked, “OK, what would your system be?”. I found I was unable to describe how I saw Christianity is “system” terms.

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

One example of how this plays out today was an elderly woman my wife and I chatted with while visiting a church many years ago. I asked here how she was doing financially and she said she was having some difficulty. We were able to help her out a little. What struck me was that she had been a member of that church for 30 years and even her best friend did not know her well enough to know of the trouble she was having. I am sure the church leaders would have been angry to know that she had not contacted them for help. They were not bad people, just ignorant because of the system they had come to rely on and which they assumed was capable of dealing with any problems was in fact only a machine.

I am perhaps sensitive to this missing element of contemporary Christianity because no one in the church I grew up in knew my parents were alcoholics. I have met many other people who have suffered in painful marriages or other tragic circumstances and no one in their churches ever knew them well enough to know of their difficulty. Most modern church defenders would fault the people for not taking advantage of counseling or other services the church might provide. I see blaming the victims as a poor excuse.

Relationships are messy, time consuming, and often present an almost never ending series of problems. However, Christians are told repeatedly to love one another. This is perhaps because we are so un-loveable.

Our primary relationship (the family) has been increasingly decimated since the Industrial Revolution. The idea that one’s best friends would be siblings and cousins is impractical when most people only have one sibling and are geographically distant and disconnected from cousins, aunts and uncles, and grandparents.

The superficiality of modern relationships can be seen with social media. People often face a dilemma, they feel the need for deeper personal relationships, yet they recoil from the difficulty such an investment in other people would require.

I see Satan as advancing the collectivization of the world for his purposes. He has even used the church to build an increasingly collectivist world so that he will be able to leverage his influence through these systems. As Christians we are supposed to be aware of his schemes. However, we all too often find a comfortable complacency with the course of the world.

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

A free pdf booklet on relational Christianity
http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/relational christianity v1.pdf

Web pages for cell phone viewing
Christian Pioneer - Current blog

I love the church ever so much but I agree. I've been privileged to know real love in at least 3 small groups, but that was a long time ago. Times are changing quickly. I kind of compare modern American churches to an advanced form of High School now where money and appearance matter more than the intended purpose of the gathering (academics 4 high school & authentic godly connections promoting real love inside and outside the body of Christ).

There are so many comparisons: the popular kids, perfect attendance awards, family connections/dynasties, just because you make it in one of these institutions doesn't mean you succeed at life...etc. If you do manage to learn and grow in these institutions it's almost despite the institution in question. I still have hope of experiencing that kind of connection again but I just don't know.

Yeah, be the loving giver on whatever level you can. It doesn't have to be done officially through organized church. Organizations are colder and more distant than individuals. Individuals won't carry the same power as organizations but more personal warmth is easier for some to accept both in terms of charity and leading to salvation.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Modern man is so inculcated in organizational systems such as school, government, corporations, and even church that it is difficult even to imagine any other sort of life. A friend who was a seminary graduate was once a little irritated with my criticisms of contemporary church that he asked, “OK, what would your system be?”. I found I was unable to describe how I saw Christianity is “system” terms.

Perhaps the “system’ configuration was a result of early persecutions or an imitation of the Greek academy, but early on Christianity quickly became a system of what was done, how it was done, and when it was done.

One example of how this plays out today was an elderly woman my wife and I chatted with while visiting a church many years ago. I asked here how she was doing financially and she said she was having some difficulty. We were able to help her out a little. What struck me was that she had been a member of that church for 30 years and even her best friend did not know her well enough to know of the trouble she was having. I am sure the church leaders would have been angry to know that she had not contacted them for help. They were not bad people, just ignorant because of the system they had come to rely on and which they assumed was capable of dealing with any problems was in fact only a machine.

I am perhaps sensitive to this missing element of contemporary Christianity because no one in the church I grew up in knew my parents were alcoholics. I have met many other people who have suffered in painful marriages or other tragic circumstances and no one in their churches ever knew them well enough to know of their difficulty. Most modern church defenders would fault the people for not taking advantage of counseling or other services the church might provide. I see blaming the victims as a poor excuse.

Relationships are messy, time consuming, and often present an almost never ending series of problems. However, Christians are told repeatedly to love one another. This is perhaps because we are so un-loveable.

Our primary relationship (the family) has been increasingly decimated since the Industrial Revolution. The idea that one’s best friends would be siblings and cousins is impractical when most people only have one sibling and are geographically distant and disconnected from cousins, aunts and uncles, and grandparents.

The superficiality of modern relationships can be seen with social media. People often face a dilemma, they feel the need for deeper personal relationships, yet they recoil from the difficulty such an investment in other people would require.

I see Satan as advancing the collectivization of the world for his purposes. He has even used the church to build an increasingly collectivist world so that he will be able to leverage his influence through these systems. As Christians we are supposed to be aware of his schemes. However, we all too often find a comfortable complacency with the course of the world.

Church structure is unlikely to ever be changed. However, those who seek the deeper Christian life may have to operate individually to connect with other Christians so that we can bear one anothers burdens and love one another.

A free pdf booklet on relational Christianity
http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/relational christianity v1.pdf

Web pages for cell phone viewing
Christian Pioneer - Current blog

Agree absolutely. The church is people first and structure second. I like the way Francis Chan goes about it. Home based fellowships, non professional leadership, body ministry and small enough not to lose real relationships. I've been involved in a similar group since 1983. We tried renting a hall for meetings on Sundays along with the mid week meetings. It was just not the same. We ended up having a meeting in the park near the beach. Bacon, eggs and fellowship. Wonderful!

 

[Aussie Pete]

So the "bottom line" would be that the institutional church is important, but individuals need to be mindful of their own responsibilities as disciples of Christ.

Both of these are prominently presented in Scripture for our guidance.

It would be good if the "institutional" church (whatever that means) followed the pattern laid out in the Bible. 30,000 denominations say that it's not happening.

 

[Albion]

It would be good if the "institutional" church (whatever that means) followed the pattern laid out in the Bible. 30,000 denominations say that it's not happening.

I'd have to wonder if there are very many of those denominations that would agree that they are not following the Bible, i.e. the New Testament pattern.

To take just one example, the likelihood of most of them agreeing that church governance should be in the hands of bishops, presbyters, and deacons, all called and installed by the church itself--which is as clear as can be in the Bible--seems slight. And that's just for starters. Yet they'd all probably say they agree to your idea.

 

[bèlla]

The first century church had dependencies we can’t replicate. We’re not in want or being persecuted collectively. We don’t rely on one another for friendship or sustenance. The majority have little need for the person beside them. Close relationships are usually built outside the church. Not in it.

Call it segmentation if you will. Just like work. You engage while you’re there but rarely beyond it. The elephant in the room isn’t love. It’s the Christian concept of family. The person you call brother or sister is that in name only.

If you have close connections with your earthly family you know the difference. There’s no comparison to what you feel for your parents and siblings to strangers. It rarely reaches that point. It takes exemplary relating to do so.

Most aren’t looking for friends and family. They come for spiritual sustenance and carry the lessons elsewhere. But that doesn’t hold true for some. They didn’t have healthy homes. Some are alone and have no one to turn to. Others never had a friend, companion, and so on. When they enter that environment they feel left out or forgotten.

People don’t look to church to satisfy relational needs unless they have to. It’s usually the last stop. They’ve tried and failed elsewhere. This is the lone option. There’s a direct correlation with allegations of unfriendliness and unloving behavior with relational satisfaction.

Sensitivity is heightened when its lacking. One person can enter the building and enjoy the experience and leave on a better note. The next dwells on the absence of attention or fellowship. Their expectations differ. That’s part of the problem.

It isn’t a factor of size, styles, or formality. Its the people present. That determines the atmosphere.

~bella

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'd have to wonder if there are very many of those denominations that would agree that they are not following the Bible, i.e. the New Testament pattern.

To take just one example, the likelihood of most of them agreeing that church governance should be in the hands of bishops, presbyters, and deacons, all called and installed by the church itself--which is as clear as can be in the Bible--seems slight. And that's just for starters. Yet they'd all probably say they agree to your idea.

Yes, it's all very easy in theory. I know how hard it is in practice. There are centuries of tradition and entrenched attitudes to overcome. We started a low key outreach. Someone I knew from decades ago wanted to know, "Who is your covering?" I replied, "Lord Jesus". Of course, this was not acceptable.

The reformation was a wonderful release from Roman Catholicism. It has not gone far enough. It's still a pyramid style leadership. The obsession with "a pastor for everything" is just silly. The word pastor is used once in the New Testament. It will change because Lord Jesus is building His church and it will be glorious and victorious here on this earth. I don't know when. I hope to see that day when the real church abandons false religious structures and comes into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. I'm 70, so I may not be here to see it.

 

[Clare73]

Agree absolutely. The church is people first and structure second. I like the way Francis Chan goes about it. Home based fellowships, non professional leadership, body ministry and small enough not to lose real relationships. I've been involved in a similar group since 1983. We tried renting a hall for meetings on Sundays along with the mid week meetings. It was just not the same. We ended up having a meeting in the park near the beach. Bacon, eggs and fellowship. Wonderful!

Who does the Biblical teaching, or is everyone responsible to find it on his own?

Can that kind of structure sustain itself for a good length of time?

 

[Albion]

I wasn't hoping to restart an old argument about what's Scriptural and what's not. However, there is no doubt whatsoever that what I referred to is Scriptural. That's why I chose that example. And yet you, Aussie Pete, spoke of it as being some sort of human tradition attributable to the Roman Catholic Church.

So this provides us with a perfect illustration of why what you saw as good and right when you said...

It would be good if the 'institutional' church (whatever that means) followed the pattern laid out in the Bible. 30,000 denominations say that it's not happening

...hasn't a chance of taking place, even though the great majority of Christians and most all denominations say it would be desirable.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Who does the Biblical teaching, or is everyone responsible to find it on his own?

Can that kind of structure sustain itself for a good length of time?

One of the qualifications of elders is to be able to teach. People should be encouraged to spend time in the word themselves also. I'm called to teach - not my idea, I assure you. God knows best. The purpose of the gifts is to equip the saints for service in God's kingdom. Most church structures keep the people as spiritual infants and so the burden is always on the leadership, often just one man. No wonder pastors burn out. Because the congregation pays him, a lot think that they own him. China has tens of thousands of small, independent churches that flourish under communist rule. The West has tens of thousands in mega churches. I wonder how they would go if real persecution took place.

 

[Marilyn C]

The public meetings run by man`s organisations have become very controlling. They own property and thus in that building and surrounds they do have the power to control what is happening.

However if we see how the Apostles Paul, Timothy and Silvanus operated, they came as ` a nursing mother, and `as a father` who comforted and exhorted his own children. (1 Thess. 1: 1, 2: 7 & 11)

Paul also encouraged Timothy to disciple others. (2 Tim. 2: 1 & 2)

Paul among many witnesses. (& his peers, eg, Barnabas, Silas etc)
Timothy - commit to faithful men.
Faithful men - to teach others also.

So we see a relational net work.

I believe people are too focused on public meetings instead of making disciples and helping them make their disciples. Do we know who are our disciples? And not just someone brought to a meeting but a person/people who we work with over years and see them discipling/mentoring others too.

Marilyn.

 

[The Liturgist]

One thing to consider is Dunbar's number, that we can maintain about 150 individual relationships. A lot of churches are much larger than this which means that individuals who need assistance may not know who to talk to. One thing I liked about the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was the elder zone. Elders served as assistants to the pastor and typically were assigned up to 20 families in their care. While I was an elder, I tried to meet with those families at least once a quarter, which most often was a 5-10 minute meeting after or before the service. If there were concerns, I could then bring them up to the monthly pastoral meeting or to a parish council member to contact them for additional help.

There is no reason why that couldn’t be implemented in Eastern Orthodoxy using Readers or well respected members of the laity.