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The Official Definition of Jesus

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by CHRISTgospel, Jul 30, 2002.

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  1. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    The Official Definition of Jesus

    According to the “official” definition of the person of Jesus, decided on at the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD), and written into the creeds of nearly all denominations, Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Many who subscribe without question to this understanding of Jesus are unaware of the implications of this description. When we examine the meaning of the Chalcedonian definition more closely some very remarkable facts emerge.

    In his recent book, To Know and Follow Jesus (pub. Paulist Press, 1984), the Roman Catholic theologian, Thomas Hart, is critical of the traditional understanding of Jesus enshrined in the creeds of mainstream Christianity by the Council of Chalcedon:

    “The Chalcedonian formula [Jesus is fully God and fully man] makes genuine humanity impossible” (p. 46, emphasis added).

    Hart explains:

    “The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in Him [divine and human, ie., he is fully God and fully man], it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient [all-knowing], omnipotent, and omnipresent.... This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kind of struggles we are familiar with” (p. 46).

    Thomas Hart then describes the official view of Jesus further:

    According to the Council of Chalcedon,

    “Jesus is called ‘man’ in the generic sense, but not ‘a man.’ He has human nature, but is not a human person. The person in him is the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus does not have a human personal center. This is how the Council gets round the possible problem of split personality” (p. 44, emphasis added).
     
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  2. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    So, christgospel, who is Jesus according to you or Mr. Hart(the roman catholic theologian)?

    A prophet?

    A teacher?


    GySgt James
     
  3. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    I answered this on another thread GySgt...please look
     
  4. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Christgospel,

    If you do not intend to answer questions, are you simply making speeches?
     
  5. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    eldermike....but I did answer....I did not think it is necessary to post twice what I have already answered
     
  6. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    You are requesting that we look in other threads to find answers to questions asked in this one?
     
  7. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    not sure how to link so I will paste
    from Jesus, a real human being thread
     
  8. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Christgospel,

    Ok, thanks. I am trying to understand something. If you believe it's impossibe for Jesus to be both fully God and fully man why is it important to remove the God part. Let's say that for the sake of argument that it is impossible, (I don't for a second believe that), would it not make equal sense to remove the man part, resolving the issue?

    Blessings
     
  9. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    It is important to remove the God part because I do not find in the Holy Writ that Jesus is our Creator God Almighty - the self existent one

    we can not remove the man part because Jesus was a man annointed by God
     
  10. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Christgospel,

    That is not logical. That is your support for this issue, you can't find it?
     
  11. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    please let me rephrase then Eldermike

    Where in the Holy Writ does it state Jesus is fully God and fully man? Because this is not in the Holy Writ it is very important to remove the God part because Jesus in not God, the self existent one.

    Jesus is fully man........ Numbers 23:19
    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man , that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
     
  12. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    There are so many unreasonable consequences to Jesus being only man, too many to post. But I will do one (perhaps one you haven't seen before) and if you don't mind just fix this one for me. Thanks.

    One additional question: are you the author of your posts? I asked only so I can know I am talking to the author. Thanks

    Is this a man speaking:

    LK 21:12 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 All men will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By standing firm you will gain life.



    Jesus makes claims here that only God could make. He will protect me. He will give me words. He will give me life. A man can do this?

    Who are you going to ask, for wisdom, protection?


    Blessings
     
  13. Million Pieces

    Million Pieces SHMILY

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    John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM' ".  Present perfect tense.  He claimed the very Name of God given in Ex. 3:14 for Himself.
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    According to this post, you state that Jesus cannot be God and man, becasue His "God nature" would overpower His "Human nature. 

    I guess I would first ask, why do you think these to natures would be at any type of conflict with the purpose for Jesus to exist on earth in the first place?

    Do you think that in order to be true, each nature would have to have it own Will? That both natures could not share in the same Will of the Son of God?

    And if the later is possible, then why could not the Son of God, as a man, limit himself to that of a man, as He saw fit to do, in order to validate the reason for His existance as a man, while on earth?
     
  15. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    have we forgotten?

    the caps do not mean that I am shouting here..... ~do smile~

    how does one answer this when many claim Jesus is fully God when the Holy Writ states he is NOT a man nor a Son of man - which Jesus certainly was the Son of man

    ELDERMIKE:
    The Bible tells us that God gave all power to Jesus, yes? God has delivered all things unto Jesus and Jesus stated that he can do nothing of himself John 5:19 .... I don't pray to Jesus nor the Holy Spirit.... I always ask for wisdom and protection from my Father, God, in the name of Jesus.

    blessings, Sondra
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Christgospel,

    your answers do not support your claim. They support my claim. Jesus" claim that He can do nothing of Himself supports that He and God are one.
    This is not a matter of reading and posting scripture it's a worldview issue. If you see a man, I see God, same scripture. The real question is: Why do you see it this way? What about the Trinity doctrine troubles you?

    you missed my question about authorship of your thread starters. I do want to make sure we are debating your ideas.

    Blessings
     
  17. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    If I might ask a question from the sidelines.

    How does the fact that Jesus can do nothing of Himself support that He and God are one? I would think it would be the opposite. Jesus needed the support of God to do the miracles that he did. If He was God, He wouldn't have needed that support.
     
  18. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    JN 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    JN 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    JN 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.



    JN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    JN 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

    JN 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

    JN 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.



    GySgt James


    [​IMG]
     
  19. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    drmmjr,

    Think about it. "Nothing" is a word that means nothing. A man can do somehintg apart from God, yes? Nothing? it says nothing, that is very strong evidence I would say.

    Blessings
     
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