The offer of salvation through faith is given to ""all"" who choose to believe.

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why do you believe that "none (of all faiths) who simply do not deserve to rot in Hell for eternity"?"

Well, as it happens, I can conceive of no crime committed in finite time that warrants eternal torment.

This isn't about crimes, or even sins. The Bible tells us exactly WHY people are cast into the lake of fire for eternity:
Rev 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The ONLY WAY one receives the irrevocable free gift of eternal life is to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 10:28).

Then I said this:
"What, then, do they deserve?"

Justice.

OK. This is what the Bible says about justice:
Rom 3:26
he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

THen I said this:
"Do you understand God's grace? That we receive salvation by grace, which means that we didn't deserve it nor earned it?

Everyone who will spend eternity in the lake of fire are there freom their own choice. They did not accept the free gift of God, being eternal life. Rev 20:15"

I know this is taught in some Christian circles, but I beg to disagree. I think good people deserve to be rewarded, and bad people punished. It's that simple. I cannot see how any other outcome is compatible with God's supreme Justice.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Your disagreement does not change what the Word of God says.

It is clear that you understand neither God's supreme Justice nor His incomparable grace.

Salvation is available to everyone:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

So, those who reject God's plan of salvation have rejected the ONLY MEANS of salvation.

Your view "I think good people deserve to be rewarded, and bad people punished. It's that simple." isn't biblical.

There are NO good people. The Bible says so clearly:
Rom 3:9
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Rom 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Rom 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

 

[Strivax]

Well, FreeGrace2, it is clear we will not agree on this matter. Never mind.

I would just point out that, while I have given reasons for my position, which you have not challenged, you have given none for yours, only repeated assertions, and Bible assertions, without rationale or justification. And an assertion does not amount to an argument. And therefore I do not see why I should believe what you believe, or why anyone else should, for that matter.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, FreeGrace2, it is clear we will not agree on this matter. Never mind.

You got that right. I gave the Scripture that refutes your opinions.

I would just point out that, while I have given reasons for my position, which you have not challenged, you have given none for yours, only repeated assertions, and Bible assertions, without rationale or justification.

Right, "Bible assertions" seem not to matter to you. Well, the Bible IS the ONLY authoritative guide for mankind, not the opinions of those in mankind.

And, the Bible refutes your position. I didn't have to challenge them. I let the Bible do that.

What verses are there that support your position? You didn't give any.

And an assertion does not amount to an argument. And therefore I do not see why I should believe what you believe, or why anyone else should, for that matter.

What you've definitely made clear is that you don't believe what the Bible says.

I do wonder, though, why your signature box identifies as "Christian" when your views are so far from what the Bible teaches.

 

[Strivax]

I do wonder, though, why your signature box identifies as "Christian" when your views are so far from what the Bible teaches.

Uh huh. Fair question. I am a Christian because, once, when I accidentally prayed, my heart was invaded by the Holy Spirit. No one could have been more surprised by this than I was. Nevertheless, that happy event did not 'prove' to me that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. Only that Jesus answers prayers, if you truly want, need and love Him.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I do wonder, though, why your signature box identifies as "Christian" when your views are so far from what the Bible teaches."

Uh huh. Fair question. I am a Christian because, once, when I accidentally prayed, my heart was invaded by the Holy Spirit.

How does one "accidentally" pray? And there is no evidence from Scripture that the Holy Spirit ever invades any heart.

No one could have been more surprised by this than I was. Nevertheless, that happy event did not 'prove' to me that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. Only that Jesus answers prayers, if you truly want, need and love Him.
Best wishes, Strivax.

Based on all that has been said, why conclude that you are a Christian? There is no evidence from what you've posted.

At best, there was some kind of emotional experience. At worst, possibly some kind of way more ominous experience.

A Christian is a person who believes the Bible about placing their faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, for receiving the gift of eternal life, which is the only way a person will avoid (be saved from) being cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

But opinions do not save one from being cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

 

[Strivax]

How does one "accidentally" pray?

So, one of my favourite poets is AE Housman, who was a homosexual and an atheist, but nevertheless had a razor sharp intellect and a way with words. And one of my favourite poems of his is this one; An Easter Hymn. I know it by heart, and love it as literature.

But, one dark night as I lay in bed, considering the state of the world, its hostilities and widespread poverty, its hatreds and selfish sins, I found myself reciting it, and actually meaning from my heart the words of this poem; please Jesus, if you are there, come and save the world...

And suddenly, out of the blackness of night, came a meteor that struck at my questing heart, and filled it with love. And it was half joy, half pain, and total ecstasy. I truly believe it was the love of God, not for me, but for the world as He surveys it. It was an incredibly intense experience, and I could stand it only for a few seconds, and prayed that it should go. It subsided immediately, but left me changed forever. Jesus did not, perhaps cannot, save the world in the way I wanted, but He could and did save me. And that is how one can accidentally pray, and how I am become a Christian.

Best wishes, Strivax.

PS You might like to view this post, where I state my current position with respect to religiosity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, one of my favourite poets is AE Housman, who was a homosexual and an atheist, but nevertheless had a razor sharp intellect and a way with words. And one of my favourite poems of his is this one; An Easter Hymn. I know it by heart, and love it as literature.

First, this is what the Bible says about atheists:
Ps 14:1-3
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psa 53:1-3 says the same thing.

So much for your favorite poet having a "razor sharp intellect".

Second, Here is the poem:
If in that Syrian garden, ages slain,
You sleep, and know not you are dead in vain,
Nor even in dreams behold how dark and bright
Ascends in smoke and fire by day and night
The hate you died to quench and could but fan,
Sleep well and see no morning, son of man.

But if, the grave rent and the stone rolled by,
At the right hand of majesty on high
You sit, and sitting so remember yet
Your tears, your agony and bloody sweat,
Your cross and passion and the life you gave,
Bow hither out of heaven and see and save.

It's a blasphemous poem, as the second line shows.

Why would an admitted atheist write a poem about Jesus anyway?

But, one dark night as I lay in bed, considering the state of the world, its hostilities and widespread poverty, its hatreds and selfish sins, I found myself reciting it, and actually meaning from my heart the words of this poem; please Jesus, if you are there, come and save the world...

Regardless of your sincerity, this did not make you a Christian.

And, this is what the Bible says about Jesus being a Savior:
1 Tim 4:10
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Being Savior of all men doesn't mean that He's going to save all men but that He died for their sins. And those who trust in Him for salvation will be saved from an eternity in the lake of fire.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

And suddenly, out of the blackness of night, came a meteor that struck at my questing heart, and filled it with love. And it was half joy, half pain, and total ecstasy. I truly believe it was the love of God, not for me, but for the world as He surveys it.

This is a description of emotions only. And this is what the Bible says about God's love:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes will not perish but have eternal life.

It was an incredibly intense experience, and I could stand it only for a few seconds, and prayed that it should go. It subsided immediately, but left me changed forever.

It was still only an emotional experience. No one receives eternal life (becoming a Christian) from emotions. One receives eternal life and becomes a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ to save them.

Jesus did not, perhaps cannot, save the world in the way I wanted, but He could and did save me.

What do you suppose He saved you from?

And that is how one can accidentally pray, and how I am a Christian.

Best wishes, Strivax.

One thing is crystal clear: from your own "testimony", you are not a Christian. But many people claim to be Christians who know nothing about what the Bible says.

PS You might like to view this post, where I state my current position with respect to religiosity.

Sad. And more clear evidence that you are not a Christian.

From your post:
"If I'm wrong, I'll rot in Hell" Damn right!

Your signature block says you're a pilgrim on another way.

That much is true. But it's far away from Christianity.

Please don't advertise yourself as a Christian when your own testimony testifies AGAINST you.

But I've given you enough information from God's Word that will lead to actually becoming a Christian.

Man is free to accept or reject God's gift.

Those who reject God's gift will rot in hell. For eternity.

 

[Strivax]

Thank you, FreeGrace2, for your input.

I have to say, though, I think your definition of a Christian is a rather narrow-minded one*. And I am content to leave God to decide the matter, come the end of days, when we will all face His terrible majesty, and those who love Him will be vindicated.

What do you suppose He saved you from?

This is the only pertinent question you ask, so I shall answer it. He saved me from my existing self-centredness, and gifted me with a love of His world, and everybody and everything in it.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*And you are entirely contrary to forum rules, in disputing my claim to be a Christian. I will not raise an issue of it with the moderators, however, because I would rather argue for myself than censor other people's genuine opinions.

 

[Strivax]

As for Psalms 14:1-3 KJV, well, to me this is prima facie evidence that the Bible does contain error, and is not the infallible word of God. There are many atheists with a highly developed moral compass, and a clear sense of good and evil, and who do manifest good works, and the world is a better place for their lives, both past and present.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

This is a description of emotions only...


It was still only an emotional experience. No one receives eternal life (becoming a Christian) from emotions.

I don't actually think you have quite yet understood what the Christian religion is. At it's heart and centre, it is the religion of love. It is all about love. It is all about emotion. Those who love God, get this. Those who love their neighbours, know this. Those who don't, whose religion is just Bible sayings and social rules and visiting church on Sundays dressed in their best clothes, well, they have missed the whole point. Jesus gave His life because He loved God, and because He loved humanity. Without that love, which Jesus preferred to His very life, and however religious you are, your belief is no more than a hollow shell of culturally appropriate activity. As Jesus puts it*:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Fundamentally, our religion just is a love affair, with God and His world. Extract the love from the religion and you are left with nothing but blind prejudice and dead dogma.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*Matthew 23:27 KJV

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you, FreeGrace2, for your input.

You're welcome.

I have to say, though, I think your definition of a Christian is a rather narrow-minded one*.

Of course. It comes from the Bible, not a concoction of people's opinions about what they think it is or should be.

And I am content to leave God to decide the matter, come the end of days, when we will all face His terrible majesty, and those who love Him will be vindicated.

It's good that you're content to leave God to decide the matter, because He certainly will.

And as I've shown from His Word, He's given clear information about how anyone can spend eternity with Him, and be saved from the lake of fire.

This is the only pertinent question you ask, so I shall answer it. He saved me from my existing self-centredness, and gifted me with a love of His world, and everybody and everything in it.

And that will accompany you all the way to the lake of fire.

People can be saved from all kinds of things. But the Bible speaks only of being saved from the lake of fire. That's what "Savior" refers to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As for Psalms 14:1-3 KJV, well, to me this is prima facie evidence that the Bible does contain error, and is not the infallible word of God. There are many atheists with a highly developed moral compass, and a clear sense of good and evil, and who do manifest good works, and the world is a better place for their lives, both past and present.

Best wishes, Strivax.

They are fools for saying "there is no God". Our opinions count for nothing. God's Word counts for everything.

The reason atheists and all unbelievers can be moral is only because God put a conscience in them.

This is what the Bible says:
Rom 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

And, in the first chapter of Romans, this:
Rom 1:19-20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So, atheists have no excuse for saying "there is no God".

An they will be held accountable for that opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't actually think you have quite yet understood what the Christian religion is.

What a hoot!! A non-Christian telling a Christian that they don't know what Christianity is.

btw, Christianity isn't a religion, as you opine. It is totally different from EVERY religion. EVERY religion is a series of rules of do's and don't's that will lead to it's own definition of 'heaven'. Christianity is solely based on RELATIONSHIP to Creator God through His Son Jesus Christ.

At it's heart and centre, it is the religion of love.

Islam claims the same thing.

It is all about love.

Actually, it's about God's love for mankind, and HOW He provides the ONLYT WAY for mankind to live with Him in eternity and be SAVED FROM the lake of fire.

 

[Strivax]

Do you really think you can bribe me with promises of heaven, and bully me with threats of hell, to get me to change my beliefs? What miserable sort of a corrupt and cowardly individual do you take me for?

But, I sense I have said enough, on this topic.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

The reason atheists and all unbelievers can be moral is only because God put a conscience in them.

Maybe so, but they are still moral, and Psalms 14:1-3 is still wrong.

Best wishes, Strivax

 

[Strivax]

I don't actually think you have quite yet understood what the Christian religion is. At it's heart and centre, it is the religion of love. It is all about love.

Islam claims the same thing.

Islam means 'submission', and it requires only an obedience to Islamic law and tradition. No doubt many Muslims love God, and other Muslims, and perhaps even some love infidels, but love does not have the central importance to Islam that love has to Christianity.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you really think you can bribe me with promises of heaven

I have no right to bribe anyone with heaven. It is God alone, through His Son Jesus Christ, who promises heaven.

and bully me with threats of hell

I've bullied no one with hell. Again, I have no right or authority. All I can do as a Christian is to share what the Bible says about heaven and hell. What you choose is your own business.

to get me to change my beliefs?

Again, nope, not my job. Those who really seek truth are open to it. The Bible describes many who go through life this way:
Acts 28:25-27
25 "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 "'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

What miserable sort of a corrupt and cowardly individual do you take me for?

I take you for just what you've described; one who does not believe the Bible, but rather your own opinions and who has not trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe so, but they are still moral, and Psalms 14:1-3 is still wrong.

Best wishes, Strivax

What is your source for truth?

 

[Strivax]

What is your source for truth?

I am quite willing to admit the Bible contains much that is true, I just don't think it to be wholly without error. I think it needs to be read carefully and critically, not swallowed credulously wholesale.

So there we have it; I am a Christian who loves God and His world unconditionally and utterly, but thinks the Bible not inerrant, and you are a Christian who denies the central importance of love to the faith, but takes every word of the Bible to be true. Which of us is closer to Jesus' intentions for His Church, I wonder? Here is one clue*:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

And here is another**:

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*1 Corinthians 13:1-3 NKJV
** Matthew 22:35-40 KJV

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am quite willing to admit the Bible contains much that is true, I just don't think it to be wholly without error.

This is what the Bible says about itself:
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

How can "all Scripture" be "inspired by God and profitable" if it contains ANY error?

I think it needs to be read carefully and critically, not swallowed credulously wholesale.

What you call "swallowed credulously wholesale" the Bible calls "faith". Do you understand what faith is and means?

So there we have it; I am a Christian who loves God and His world unconditionally and utterly, but thinks the Bible not inerrant

From your own words, you cannot be a Christian, because you have not explained placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Your so-called "conversion" experience was from a blasphemous poem by an atheist.

and you are a Christian who denies the central importance of love to the faith

I quoted John 3:16, which says that love is the WHOLE BASIS for why Jesus Christ came to earth and died for the sins of mankind.

So your claim here is false.

but takes every word of the Bible to be true.

Who are you to claim that not every word is true? But you misunderstand or reject faith.

Which of us is closer to Jesus' intentions for His Church, I wonder? Here is one clue*:

I would say you're not even close from your own words.