The nonsense of "faith produces works"

[New Testament Christian]

I don't know what Dan would say, but what he wrote and you quoted does not reflect a uniquely Calvinist POV.

Then which doctrine of Direct operation of the Holy Spirit (miraculous) in order to have the ability to believe, to come to faith, who teaches this theology? Answer reformed theology. Plenty of Baptist's will claim they are not calvinist's but they are in their doctrinal beliefs.

 

[RDKirk]

Then which doctrine of Direct operation of the Holy Spirit (miraculous) in order to have the ability to believe, to come to faith, who teaches this theology? Answer reformed theology. Plenty of Baptist's will claim they are not calvinist's but they are in their doctrinal beliefs.

How does this happen?

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

So these people to whom Jesus is speaking have heard the word from the Word Himself...yet do not believe. They've seen His miracles with their own eyes, yet do not believe.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They don't believe what they hear from Jesus Himself or what they see Him do because they are already not of His fold. They did not become not of His fold because of unbelief, but do not believe because they are already not of His fold.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

The sheep who hear His voice are already known by Him. They don't become known by Him because they follow Him. The hearing and knowing come before the following.

 

[New Testament Christian]

How does this happen?

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.



So these people to whom Jesus is speaking have heard the word from the Word Himself...yet do not believe. They've seen His miracles with their own eyes, yet do not believe.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They don't believe what they hear from Jesus Himself or what they see Him do because they are already not of His fold. They did not become not of His fold because of unbelief, but do not believe because they are already not of His fold.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

The sheep who hear His voice are already known by Him. They don't become known by Him because they follow Him. The hearing and knowing come before the following.

Are you not aware that Jesus was on earth in the flesh and spoke directly to them?

We do not have Jesus in the flesh today speaking directly to us.

Only through the revelation of the gospel, His holy word, do we today get teaching. Never directly from the Godhead.

 

[RDKirk]

Are you not aware that Jesus was on earth in the flesh and spoke directly to them?

Are you not aware that I said that?

We do not have Jesus in the flesh today speaking directly to us.

Only through the revelation of the gospel, His holy word, do we today get teaching. Never directly from anybody the Godhead.

In that passage of scripture, even when people had Jesus speaking the gospel from His own lips, He still pointed out that they did not believe Him because they were not His sheep. Being His sheep preceded believing the gospel.

 

[prophecy_uk]

RD: "How does this happen?

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

So these people to whom Jesus is speaking have heard the word from the Word Himself...yet do not believe. They've seen His miracles with their own eyes, yet do not believe."





Blessed to not see, yet believe, as the miracles are not the works to believe in...


John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


The greater work is Jesus rising from the dead, or what work/miracle would we have to believe in ?


John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.


John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.


1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Now this is to all, stop talking nonsense or it is your own nonsense that will produce no faith. But the guy who is against calvinism, is correct of course.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Are you not aware that I said that?



In that passage of scripture, even when people had Jesus speaking the gospel from His own lips, He still pointed out that they did not believe Him because they were not His sheep. Being His sheep preceded believing the gospel.

Wrong, being His sheep comes from believing the words from His mouth. They simply did not believe. It is a choice they made.

If God cherry picks those who will become His sheep, then freewill does not exist.

 

[prophecy_uk]

New: "Wrong, being His sheep comes from believing the words from His mouth. They simply did not believe. It is a choice they made.

If God cherry picks those who will become His sheep, then freewill does not exist."




Some where not His sheep, and some are, the thieves and robbers are heard by who are not His sheep, but the sheep only hear their Shepherd...


John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[New Testament Christian]

New: "Wrong, being His sheep comes from believing the words from His mouth. They simply did not believe. It is a choice they made.

If God cherry picks those who will become His sheep, then freewill does not exist."




Some where not His sheep, and some are, the thieves and robbers are heard by who are not His sheep, but the sheep only hear their Shepherd...


John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If God damns some to hell without their choice in the matter as your calvinist interpretation of the Bible teaches.

Then by your doctrine, God did not give man a free will.

God created robots to say and do as He chooses. We have no choice in the matter of living for God or for satan.

Therefore by pre-election, there is no point for a coming judgment day. God has already judged us before He created us.

Calvinist theology is irrational, it does not fit with Biblical teaching.

God cherry picks His sheep, therefore God must be a respecter of persons.

The scriptures teach the opposite,

Romans 2:11

John 8:42-47 These Jews chose not to follow Jesus.

These verses do not help your misinterpretation of these scriptures in John at all.

Do you not know that these Jews BELIEVED? !!!

Yet with their belief they still chose to reject Jesus' invation.

This proves we are not saved by faith alone. For these Jews in John 8:42- believed but were not saved.

John 8:31 these Jews were believers! Even though they believed in Him, they chose not to believe in His teachings.

 

[RDKirk]

Then by your doctrine, God did not give man a free will.

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?

John 8:42-47 These Jews chose not to follow Jesus.

You seem to have disproved your own argument. Does a person choose his father?

 

[New Testament Christian]

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?

Are you confirming that man is a robot that has no free will?

 

[RDKirk]

Are you confirming that man is a robot that has no free will?

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?

 

[New Testament Christian]

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?



You seem to have disproved your own argument. Does a person choose his father?

Not their paternal. Poor argument Sir. Is Jesus your paternal Father?

 

[RDKirk]

Not their paternal. Poor argument Sir. Is Jesus your paternal Father?

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?

 

[New Testament Christian]

Do you have a verse for that "free will" handy for reference?

Sir, for your position to be correct, God would be the one who makes us believe, come to faith in Jesus.

That takes away our responsibility to BELIEVE!!!!

It is by our freewill that we choose to have faith in Christ, once we are taught the gospel, Romans 10:17.

If no free will then God is commanding us to do something(believe) without our ability to do so(no free will according to you).

This is nonsense!

God commands us to believe. If no freewill then God would just "zap" us with faith. It is by our freewill that we obey Gods commandments and believe.

This is Biblical proof of freewill.

1John 3:23-24
And this is His COMMANDMENT: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another. As He gave us commandment

If no free will this commandment and others make no rational sense for God to demand them from mankind.

If it is God who chooses those who will believe as the calvinist teach, then there is no point for God to give us commands to believe in Jesus.

The Bible teaches free will.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Romans 10:7 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


1John 3:23-24 And this is His COMMANDMENT: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another. As He gave us commandment.



All the talk, why not let the verse speak for themselves?


If we cant hear with ears given by the Lord, then that makes sense why we cant love one another, as the love of God also needs to be shed into us along with ears and eyes..


Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[New Testament Christian]

If we cant hear with ears given by the Lord, then that makes sense why we cant love one another, as the love of God also needs to be shed into us along with ears and eyes..

It is calvinism that claims we cannot hear the gospel with our ears.

Where does the scriptures teach we must be directly Holy Spirit baptized before we can hear the gospel and believe it?

Paul taught we can hear Gods word and this hearing is where faith originates. Not by a miraculous direct operation of God before we hear the gospel.

Romans 10:17.

Give the scriptures that teach God must first perform a miracle on an individual to be able to hear the word and believe it.

 

[New Testament Christian]

Romans 10:7 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


1John 3:23-24 And this is His COMMANDMENT: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another. As He gave us commandment.



All the talk, why not let the verse speak for themselves?


If we cant hear with ears given by the Lord, then that makes sense why we cant love one another, as the love of God also needs to be shed into us along with ears and eyes..


Ephesians 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Epheasians 1:16 that you quoted is being spoken to CHRISTIANS! Not the unsaved. You are taking verses out of context to fit your personal beliefs.

 

[prophecy_uk]

New: "Where does the scriptures teach we must be directly Holy Spirit baptized before we can hear the gospel and believe it?"


Need a heart given to perceive with, which comes with the new Spirit, or cant perceive ( understand) to believe..

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[prophecy_uk]

New: "Epheasians 1:16 that you quoted is being spoken to CHRISTIANS! Not the unsaved."


Yes, Christians who are not saved until they receive the Holy Ghost..

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[New Testament Christian]

New: "Epheasians 1:16 that you quoted is being spoken to CHRISTIANS! Not the unsaved."


Yes, Christians who are not saved until they receive the Holy Ghost..

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Sir, you cannot be a Christian and be unsaved.

Do you not know that God is the only one that makes you a Christian? Not man!

I am shocked you think there are folks who are Christians but not saved.

Give just one Bible verse that teaches there are Christian's that have never been saved?

I will help you out, there is none!

Only the saved are called christians. Do you not know it is God who named His people Christians?

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called christians in Antioch.

Isaiah 62:2
The gentiles shall see your righteousness, And all the kings your glory.

You shall be called by a new name, WHICH THE MOUTH OF THE LORD WILL NAME.

It is Jesus Himself that named His people Christians.

Do you think that folks who are unsaved will be named by God himself?

Who were first called christians in Antioch? The unsaved?

No Sir, God is naming those whom He has saved, christians.

Give a verse that teaches one whom God has named Christian can still be unsaved?