The nonsense of "faith produces works"

[5thKingdom]

The OT prophetic timetable was that Israel must accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the Gentiles could be reached by them, see for example Zechariah 8. So there is no contradiction in all the passages that you have listed.

Of course there are contradictions...
I listed them for you and you REFUTED NOTHING.


You said:

Actually Jesus was only addressing the nation Israel with the gospel of the kingdom during his first coming on Earth. (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8).

As I have shown with SCRIPTURES (that you ignored)
His first coming on earth was to save "His People" from their
sins, and that included BOTH Jew and Gentile... until the
(as Jesus said) "end of the world"


Not only did I REFUTE your "proof texts" with SCRIPTURE
(and show you did not show the CONTEXT of either citation)
But I also showed Scripture that REFUTED your statement.
I will list them again below.... feel free to try to support your
statement with SCRIPTURES. But for you to simply respond
saying "no, I am right" means LESS than nothing.


And you can try to move the goalposts in order to save face,
but you are only pretending to yourself. Obviously Jesus was
NOT (I quote you) "only addressing the nation of Israel with
His first coming" when He told that nation the "Kingdom of God"
was being TAKEN from them and GIVEN to others....
yes, I know, you choose to ignore that reality.


Listen, you presented a doctrine (a theory really) and I showed
SCRIPTURE that refuted your theory. You simply IGNORED the
SCRIPTURE that I provided... therefore you stand REFUTED
until you address (and refute) the passages I offered
which contradict your "theory".


This is how Saints have confirmed or refuted "doctrines"
for almost 2000 years. Do not pretend that you simply
can respond with your "feelings" and pretend that somehow
your "feelings" can substitute for Scripture or refute Scripture.


Here is my original post:
Either REFUTE it with Scripture or know that YOUR theory
has been REFUTED with Scripture.


I do not care if your "gospel" must IGNORE SCRIPTURES
that contradict you... that is your problem, not mine.

--------------

Of course the PROBLEM with your gospel is it contradicts Scripture.
Jesus specifically prayed for all of those who would "believe on Me"
because of the preaching of His disciples (through the Bible).


Joh 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word;


Jesus came to saved "His people" from their sins and He declared
He would lose NONE of "His Sheep". That includes those living
during His Ministry and those "elected" to be saved throughout
History. In fact, the Great Tribulation could not begin until the
"testimony" of the church (two candlesticks and two olive trees)
was "finished" [Rev 11:7] and all the Last Saints had been "saved/sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] And the Holy Spirit had been
"taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9]


To preach the Gospel was only meant for Israel contradicts the
Bible - and the entire ministry of Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles).
It also contradicts the Words of Christ when He PROMISED that
He would lose NONE of those God had given Him.


Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


FYI #1... You incorrectly said Jesus was ONLY addressing
the nation of Israel with His First Coming.


Matthew 15:24 is simply indicated that the FIRST task was for
Jesus to "harvest" all the last Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
and into the Christian Kingdom. And history confirms this since
the Gospel did not go out into the world of Gentiles until AFTER
Jesus gave the "Great Commission" [Mat 28:18-20] when He
commanded ALL NATIONS be preached and receive the baptism
of the Holy Spirit... "until the end of the world"


Joh_4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


You can also see this reality in what Jesus said about the
"Kingdom of God" being TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN
to the Christians. Clearly the Lord's First Coming was NOT limited
to only Israel, when He tells them the Kingdom is being TAKEN
from them and GIVEN to others. This contradicts your "theory".


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof.


Moreover, Jesus specifically said HE had "other sheep" besides
the initial harvest of the Jews. This should not be "news" to you
since Paul's ministry was to these "other sheep" and the preaching
of the Great Commission was to these "other sheep" and the
prayer of John 17:20 (above) was ABOUT these "other sheep".


Joh_10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


If the "other sheep" (besides the Jews) He "must also bring" and
"they shall hear My voice" and "there shall be ONE FOLD with only
ONE SHEPHERD... then your "theory" is proven wrong another time.


FYI #2
You cited Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" that Jesus was sent
to the Jews.


Rom 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


HOWEVER, you very conveniently FORGOT to include the REST
of the passage in your "proof text"... the part that includes the
GENTILES.


Rom 15:9-12
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


To be honest, it seems very strange to me that you would cite
Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" for your "gospel" and then omit
the CONTEXT of that verse in 15:9-12.


But, even if it was an honest mistake on your part. The lesson
is you cannot even pretend to offer an "informed opinion" when
your "proof text" contradicts the Context of the immediate
passage OR of all the RELATED Scriptures. Which, of course,
yours does... or we can just eliminate all of Paul's writings...
which were inspired writings.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Those who receive Jesus’ gift of salvation by faith, trusting in what He did for them on the cross, are redeemed from their sinful condition and cleansed from all unrighteousness. In exchange for their sinfulness, they receive Jesus’ righteousness and will enter heaven when they die (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Those who reject Jesus’ gift of salvation remain in their sinful state with no other means available for their redemption. As a result, they will reap the full measure of God’s wrath upon their death, suffering the consequences for their sins because they refused Jesus’ sacrifice offered on their behalf.

The Gospel of the Bible says that NO MAN can "seek God"
or believe in Christ unless they were "elected" before the foundation
of the world to be "His sheep" and God "draws" them to Christ...
and ALL MEN God draws "shall come" to Christ and He will lose
NONE of them.


So where do you get the idea that MEN can save themselves
by making a DECISION (a mental work) to "believe" or "trust"
or "have faith", when the Bible says those acts of repentance
are the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE?


Second question:
Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
They were not allowed to "perceive" or to "understand" the Word
LEST AT ANY TIME they would "be converted" and their sins
would "be forgiven".


Does YOUR GOSPEL include the Words of Christ that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved?


BTW.... we see this reality confirmed in HISTORY as most men
in history were NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were never
"chosen" or "elected" to be part of "His sheep", therefore God
did not "draw" them to Christ. Again, this is the vast majority
of mankind... BILLIONS of people NEVER MEANT to be saved.


Jim

 

[Guojing]

Of course there are contradictions...
I listed them for you and you REFUTED NOTHING.


You said:





As I have shown with SCRIPTURES (that you ignored)
His first coming on earth was to save "His People" from their
sins, and that included BOTH Jew and Gentile... until the
(as Jesus said) "end of the world"


Not only did I REFUTE your "proof texts" with SCRIPTURE
(and show you did not show the CONTEXT of either citation)
But I also showed Scripture that REFUTED your statement.
I will list them again below.... feel free to try to support your
statement with SCRIPTURES. But for you to simply respond
saying "no, I am right" means LESS than nothing.


And you can try to move the goalposts in order to save face,
but you are only pretending to yourself. Obviously Jesus was
NOT (I quote you) "only addressing the nation of Israel with
His first coming" when He told that nation the "Kingdom of God"
was being TAKEN from them and GIVEN to others....
yes, I know, you choose to ignore that reality.


Listen, you presented a doctrine (a theory really) and I showed
SCRIPTURE that refuted your theory. You simply IGNORED the
SCRIPTURE that I provided... therefore you stand REFUTED
until you address (and refute) the passages I offered
which contradict your "theory".


This is how Saints have confirmed or refuted "doctrines"
for almost 2000 years. Do not pretend that you simply
can respond with your "feelings" and pretend that somehow
your "feelings" can substitute for Scripture or refute Scripture.


Here is my original post:
Either REFUTE it with Scripture or know that YOUR theory
has been REFUTED with Scripture.


I do not care if your "gospel" must IGNORE SCRIPTURES
that contradict you... that is your problem, not mine.

--------------

Of course the PROBLEM with your gospel is it contradicts Scripture.
Jesus specifically prayed for all of those who would "believe on Me"
because of the preaching of His disciples (through the Bible).


Joh 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word;


Jesus came to saved "His people" from their sins and He declared
He would lose NONE of "His Sheep". That includes those living
during His Ministry and those "elected" to be saved throughout
History. In fact, the Great Tribulation could not begin until the
"testimony" of the church (two candlesticks and two olive trees)
was "finished" [Rev 11:7] and all the Last Saints had been "saved/sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] And the Holy Spirit had been
"taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9]


To preach the Gospel was only meant for Israel contradicts the
Bible - and the entire ministry of Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles).
It also contradicts the Words of Christ when He PROMISED that
He would lose NONE of those God had given Him.


Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


FYI #1... You incorrectly said Jesus was ONLY addressing
the nation of Israel with His First Coming.


Matthew 15:24 is simply indicated that the FIRST task was for
Jesus to "harvest" all the last Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
and into the Christian Kingdom. And history confirms this since
the Gospel did not go out into the world of Gentiles until AFTER
Jesus gave the "Great Commission" [Mat 28:18-20] when He
commanded ALL NATIONS be preached and receive the baptism
of the Holy Spirit... "until the end of the world"


Joh_4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


You can also see this reality in what Jesus said about the
"Kingdom of God" being TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN
to the Christians. Clearly the Lord's First Coming was NOT limited
to only Israel, when He tells them the Kingdom is being TAKEN
from them and GIVEN to others. This contradicts your "theory".


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof.


Moreover, Jesus specifically said HE had "other sheep" besides
the initial harvest of the Jews. This should not be "news" to you
since Paul's ministry was to these "other sheep" and the preaching
of the Great Commission was to these "other sheep" and the
prayer of John 17:20 (above) was ABOUT these "other sheep".


Joh_10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


If the "other sheep" (besides the Jews) He "must also bring" and
"they shall hear My voice" and "there shall be ONE FOLD with only
ONE SHEPHERD... then your "theory" is proven wrong another time.


FYI #2
You cited Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" that Jesus was sent
to the Jews.


Rom 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


HOWEVER, you very conveniently FORGOT to include the REST
of the passage in your "proof text"... the part that includes the
GENTILES.


Rom 15:9-12
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


To be honest, it seems very strange to me that you would cite
Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" for your "gospel" and then omit
the CONTEXT of that verse in 15:9-12.


But, even if it was an honest mistake on your part. The lesson
is you cannot even pretend to offer an "informed opinion" when
your "proof text" contradicts the Context of the immediate
passage OR of all the RELATED Scriptures. Which, of course,
yours does... or we can just eliminate all of Paul's writings...
which were inspired writings.


Jim

So you think Jesus was joking when he stated Matthew 15:24?

 

[timothyu]

But the BIBLE says we are born spiritually DEAD...

Of course as we follow the survival path in order to live, our animal instinct overrides our desire to serve others, hence we could be seen as spiritually dead. Remember Adam and Eve did not start as babies or the Bible might be worded differently.

However when we become old enough to understand the difference between the two natures of man, the good guys and the bad guys so to speak, it is easy to choose a path of either the good side with no use for the ways of the bullies and oppressors, or we can see the advantages in being a bully and oppressor. One could say we chose the path or perhaps say God sends us on one or the other for His purpose, but those who fall to the side of the road on poor soil are given a chance to return to God are they not? Isn't that the whole idea behind the tribulation?

 

[GDL]

I am an open book and want others to be able to see who I am, what I stand for, and that I am a real person (evidenced by my photo avatar). I am not hiding behind a computer screen anonymously but give information about myself so that anyone wanting to check out my credentials or information about me absolutely can do that at will.

It makes me suspicious when someone posting on such important doctrinal issues does not have an open profile for others to view.

Suspicious of what? The content I post is my open book. This is why I post mainly a lot of Scripture & ask for the same from others. What credentials do I need to do this & must we all take the same approach as you? Most of the time people that wonder such things just want to classify another's camp theology so they can instantly reject them. If it will help, I gave up camp-based theological systems some time ago.

No offense intended, but personally I'm not that interested in who you are or what you look like. I'm interested in what you and everyone else does with Scripture. Whatever credentials you think you have are ultimately not that meaningful to me. Your work is between you & our Lord. I mostly care and evaluate by what someone does in interpreting & conveying God's Word, which you mainly do in narrative, so it's a lot of work to read you & compare mentally or actually with Scripture. Also, some think they can discredit another with simple narrative. It doesn't work with me. Scripture is our standard.

FWIW, the limited amount I've read you, leaves me with much agreement, but not entirely. Also, FWIW, for you to respond to me like you did recently (all caps declaration!) was a bit bold on your part. You're really not the ultimate authority on our Text, which we are all still students of, and I can almost (not knowing everyone) guaranty you that none of us have it all figured out.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

 

[GDL]

Hi GDL,

To answer your various verse quotes and statements, born-again believers obey the Lord and do good works, not to be saved but because they have been saved. This is because the Holy Spirit has taken up residence inside of them and given them a new nature that desires to obey the Lord. This new, godly nature battles against their sinful nature that desires to please self and not God.

Works and obedience have their place in a believer’s life. In fact, authentic salvation is characterized by a demonstration of good works. But obedience to God or works of any type do not save anyone or contribute to one’s salvation in the sense of whether they are born-again or not.

The Bible states very clear facts on what saves someone and leaves no room for other things to be added, nor does it add other components into the equation. If the verses you offered teach that obedience/works contribute to one’s salvation, then please answer these questions in light of that belief:

You've really not interacted on the Scriptures I posted re: Faith-Obedience, but summarily dismissed them with a few sentences. As I mentioned to you in another response, what is meaningful to me is Scripture, not one's narrative.

I'm going to skip your interpretational narrative for now & maybe from now on. Some of it looks a bit canned, cut & pasted, which means you're not really thinking anew. I'm happy to discuss Scripture.

Firstly, I'll say that by comparing & harmonizing the verses you post with the ones I posted to you, you'll find quite clearly the concept of Faith-Obedience. As I said before, seeming contradictions mean we need to do some more work. Now, your verses used to duel:

• What saves people according to the following verse, which specifically addresses salvation? "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)

What are we justified before God by or through, and what grants us access into His grace, according to the following verses? "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)

• What are the means by which someone becomes righteous before God and on what basis, according to Paul's words in the following verses? "...so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." Philippians 3:8b-9 (NASB)

What enables us to have eternal life with God, according to this passage in John's gospel? "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (NASB)

Actually, this won't be much of a discussion yet.

The answer to all of your questions is Faith or Belief, even Trust, whatever translation of the Greek word you prefer. But, this leaves more for discussion:

Now for my 1st question: What is Biblical Faith - what other nouns or adjectives from our Text would you apply to it to help explain what it includes or does not include? I already know you don't like the fact that faith & obedience are so vitally connected in Scripture as to be used synonymously at times. Additionally, I already know you have not answered my question re: simultaneous believing & obeying per 1 John 3:23. Do you not believe the Scriptures I presented to you or somehow interpret them as meaning something other than obedience?

2nd question: Kind of an aside, but just interested: What do you think of the popular, somewhat reformation-based phrase, "Faith Alone in Christ Alone"? By my first question here, I ask, as many in the debate do, is Faith ever alone (is it a stand-alone word with out descriptives)? Secondly, based upon what Christ said in J5:24, is "Christ Alone" Biblically accurate? I find it fascinating how much our Lord & First-Born Brother spoke of, pointed to, and glorified our Father.

3rd: Re: J5:24 again & your question to me: Do you think "believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life" requires a better understanding about belief for eternal life? In other words, and for instance, does our belief need to be "abiding" for us to have eternal life? Obviously your answer will begin to interact with your answer to my first question.

Good enough for now. Will await your answers.

 

[GDL]

Hi GDL,

WRONG! Jesus is simply pointing out that if this young man wants to enter heaven, he must be perfect (i.e., keep the commandments). Jesus knew this was an impossible task for this young man and everyone else because only God is good and perfect. This is why Jesus died on the cross for sinners! If someone was able to gain eternal life in heaven by keeping God’s commands, His death was in vain.

- Nice exclamatory, (self-assumed) authority!

- In regards to how God views those who are oriented to His authority, I’ve always found this verse interesting but rarely discussed. NKJ Acts 10:35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by (acceptable, pleasing to) Him.

- I also like what our Lord identified as "great faith" and how it had to do with humility in recognition of His authority: NKJ Luke 7:6-9 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, "Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 "Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 "For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one,`Go,' and he goes; and to another,`Come,' and he comes; and to my servant,`Do this,' and he does it." 9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, "I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!"

Back to our Matt19 discussion:

- Entering Heaven is your language for now

- I see Jesus as referring to the Tanakh (Deut, Neh, Prov) that instructs Israel to keep God’s commandments & live. The man basically tells Jesus he’s an observant Israelite. Belief in God & its inextricably connected Obedience to God was & is always part of the equation. It always will be & it's what's getting worked out in history. It's also called Love for God and Neighbor.

- Next, and what this man is face-to-face with, is belief in Israel’s Messiah and following Him to perfection as He is commanding here.

- Even though Noah was said to be perfect in his generation, it seems we both know that perfection was not something to be accomplished (excepting Christ) under the perfect Law of God. So, I agree that Jesus was offering - actually commanding - this man to come & follow Him to become perfect, which would require belief in Jesus as someone who could take him there.

- As I said, there is Faith in Christ & God our Father, Obedience to God for entering into life, the Kingdom of Heaven / God, and Salvation in these verses, and I don’t think it is foundationally much different for us today, but for our ability to now look back to include the death & resurrection of our Lord & what He accomplished for us, so He could perfect us.

Again, WRONG. Jesus was helping this young man see his need for a Savior because the man was not perfect, nor could he ever be perfect apart from Jesus.

- Actually, I’m not sure why you say I’m WRONG! here. I said I see Jesus prompting the man to consider who he’s talking with and telling him to follow Him if he wants to be perfect. So, doesn’t this say that perfection would come from following Jesus? It does for us.

- The implications here are vivid to me: Per Jesus: Do you know who you’re talking to and what I’m offering you? I see this as about the same foundational issue unbelievers face today.

The simple truth of the gospel is that people are sinners who need a Savior. However, there is only one way for individuals to be saved from their sins, reconciled to God, and enter heaven when they die. That is through placing their faith in God’s only Son, Jesus Christ, for what He did for them on the cross. This biblical truth excludes everyone and everything else as a means for obtaining forgiveness and salvation.

- Actually, there’s more to the Gospel than this particular approach of yours, but good enough for now

- Please explain the extent of “saved from their sins” Biblically

- Please define “faith” Biblically

- Please define or explain the titles “Son of God” & “Christ”

Dwelling in God’s holy and righteous presence in heaven requires sinless perfection. This biblical truth disqualifies every human being from entering in on their own merits because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Therefore, Jesus was sent from heaven to earth to resolve this dilemma for sinners.

- On the surface (meaning as far as I understand what I think you mean & it comparing to our Text) I mostly agree

- When the English translations of the NT use the word “perfection,” are they speaking of “sinless perfection” or are other concepts of perfection discussed?

As God manifested in the flesh, Jesus lived a sinless life of obedience to the Father while on earth. He did this on behalf of all sinners, which satisfied God’s righteous requirements for holy living. At the appointed time of His death, Jesus willingly took the sins of the entire world upon Himself, suffering the punishment for each of them, and dying a substitutionary death in every sinful person’s place. When He breathed His last breath, He proclaimed, “it is finished,” signifying God’s acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for sins, once for all.

- On the surface I agree. Nice narrative even though you leave me to trust you know Scripture to back you up.

Those who receive Jesus’ gift of salvation by faith, trusting in what He did for them on the cross, are redeemed from their sinful condition and cleansed from all unrighteousness. In exchange for their sinfulness, they receive Jesus’ righteousness and will enter heaven when they die (2 Corinthians 5:21).

- Did Jesus ever command an unbeliever to work to receive the gift He gives?

- Is our trust in Him simply for what He did on the cross?

- Is the cross meaningful apart from His resurrection & who & what He is?

- I don’t want to get deep into this here, but once saved always saved?

- Is there anything the believer must do as a “saved” person?

- Re: 2Cor5:21, do you think our becoming the righteousness of God in Christ is limited to what is typically called “imputed righteousness”?

Those who reject Jesus’ gift of salvation remain in their sinful state with no other means available for their redemption. As a result, they will reap the full measure of God’s wrath upon their death, suffering the consequences for their sins because they refused Jesus’ sacrifice offered on their behalf.

- Is it simply a rejection of Jesus' gift that means the unbeliever remains in sin?

- Do you know for some it’s not for sins that unbelievers will suffer eternal consequences, because Jesus died for all sins, but for rejecting belief that Jesus is Messiah? Any thoughts on what's Biblically accurate?

 

[5thKingdom]

So you think Jesus was joking when he stated Matthew 15:24?

Did you BOTHER to read the verses AFTER Matthew 15:24?
How can you expect to understand anything when you do not
even bother to harmonize the IMMEDIATE context... much less
ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.


Mat 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


So you think Jesus was KIDDING in John 17:20? (below)
And you think Jesus was KIDDING in John 6:39 (below)
And you think Jesus was KIDDING in Matthew 21:43 (below)


Tell me please... how can you expect to be taken seriously
when you intentionally IGNORE the verses (provided to you)
that CONTRADICT your theory?


And why do you not RESPOND to the passages I send you?
Are you AFRAID to actually compare Scripture to Scripture?
Can you only read ONE VERSE to develop your theory?


As I have shown with SCRIPTURES (that you ignored)
His first coming on earth was to save "His People" from their
sins, and that included BOTH Jew and Gentile... until the
(as Jesus said) "end of the world"


Not only did I REFUTE your "proof texts" with SCRIPTURE
(and show you did not show the CONTEXT of either citation)
But I also showed Scripture that REFUTED your statement.
I will list them again below.... feel free to try to support your
statement with SCRIPTURES. But for you to simply respond
saying "no, I am right" means LESS than nothing.


And you can try to move the goalposts in order to save face,
but you are only pretending to yourself. Obviously Jesus was
NOT (I quote you) "only addressing the nation of Israel with
His first coming" when He told that nation the "Kingdom of God"
was being TAKEN from them and GIVEN to others....
yes, I know, you choose to ignore that reality.


Listen, you presented a doctrine (a theory really) and I showed
SCRIPTURE that refuted your theory. You simply IGNORED the
SCRIPTURE that I provided... therefore you stand REFUTED
until you address (and refute) the passages I offered
which contradict your "theory".


This is how Saints have confirmed or refuted "doctrines"
for almost 2000 years. Do not pretend that you simply
can respond with your "feelings" and pretend that somehow
your "feelings" can substitute for Scripture or refute Scripture.


Here is my original post:
Either REFUTE it with Scripture or know that YOUR theory
has been REFUTED with Scripture.


I do not care if your "gospel" must IGNORE SCRIPTURES
that contradict you... that is your problem, not mine.

--------------

Of course the PROBLEM with your gospel is it contradicts Scripture.
Jesus specifically prayed for all of those who would "believe on Me"
because of the preaching of His disciples (through the Bible).


Joh 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word;


Jesus came to saved "His people" from their sins and He declared
He would lose NONE of "His Sheep". That includes those living
during His Ministry and those "elected" to be saved throughout
History. In fact, the Great Tribulation could not begin until the
"testimony" of the church (two candlesticks and two olive trees)
was "finished" [Rev 11:7] and all the Last Saints had been "saved/sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] And the Holy Spirit had been
"taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9]


To preach the Gospel was only meant for Israel contradicts the
Bible - and the entire ministry of Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles).
It also contradicts the Words of Christ when He PROMISED that
He would lose NONE of those God had given Him.


Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


FYI #1... You incorrectly said Jesus was ONLY addressing
the nation of Israel with His First Coming.


Matthew 15:24 is simply indicated that the FIRST task was for
Jesus to "harvest" all the last Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
and into the Christian Kingdom. And history confirms this since
the Gospel did not go out into the world of Gentiles until AFTER
Jesus gave the "Great Commission" [Mat 28:18-20] when He
commanded ALL NATIONS be preached and receive the baptism
of the Holy Spirit... "until the end of the world"


Joh_4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


You can also see this reality in what Jesus said about the
"Kingdom of God" being TAKEN from the Jews and GIVEN
to the Christians. Clearly the Lord's First Coming was NOT limited
to only Israel, when He tells them the Kingdom is being TAKEN
from them and GIVEN to others. This contradicts your "theory".


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof.


Moreover, Jesus specifically said HE had "other sheep" besides
the initial harvest of the Jews. This should not be "news" to you
since Paul's ministry was to these "other sheep" and the preaching
of the Great Commission was to these "other sheep" and the
prayer of John 17:20 (above) was ABOUT these "other sheep".


Joh_10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


If the "other sheep" (besides the Jews) He "must also bring" and
"they shall hear My voice" and "there shall be ONE FOLD with only
ONE SHEPHERD... then your "theory" is proven wrong another time.


FYI #2
You cited Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" that Jesus was sent
to the Jews.


Rom 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


HOWEVER, you very conveniently FORGOT to include the REST
of the passage in your "proof text"... the part that includes the
GENTILES.


Rom 15:9-12
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


To be honest, it seems very strange to me that you would cite
Romans 15:8 as a "proof text" for your "gospel" and then omit
the CONTEXT of that verse in 15:9-12.


But, even if it was an honest mistake on your part. The lesson
is you cannot even pretend to offer an "informed opinion" when
your "proof text" contradicts the Context of the immediate
passage OR of all the RELATED Scriptures. Which, of course,
yours does... or we can just eliminate all of Paul's writings...
which were inspired writings.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Of course as we follow the survival path in order to live, our animal instinct overrides our desire to serve others, hence we could be seen as spiritually dead. Remember Adam and Eve did not start as babies or the Bible might be worded differently.

However when we become old enough to understand the difference between the two natures of man, the good guys and the bad guys so to speak, it is easy to choose a path of either the good side with no use for the ways of the bullies and oppressors, or we can see the advantages in being a bully and oppressor. One could say we chose the path or perhaps say God sends us on one or the other for His purpose, but those who fall to the side of the road on poor soil are given a chance to return to God are they not? Isn't that the whole idea behind the tribulation?

That is hilarious.
You do not even dispute the BIBLE says we are born
spiritually DEAD.... you just express your "feelings" that
we naturally TRANSLATE from death to live as we age.

Of course you send no SCRIPTURE to support that notion
(because no SCRIPTURE exists to support that notion)

How am I supposed to take you seriously when you argue
your "feelings" instead of SCRIPTURE? You can NEVER be wrong
when your "authority" is your own feelings and imagination.

Let me know when you find some SCRIPTURE to support
your notions... then (and only then) can you be taken seriously.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

As God manifested in the flesh, Jesus lived a sinless life of obedience to the Father while on earth. He did this on behalf of all sinners, which satisfied God’s righteous requirements for holy living. At the appointed time of His death, Jesus willingly took the sins of the entire world upon Himself, suffering the punishment for each of them, and dying a substitutionary death in every sinful person’s place.

I will ask you AGAIN, since you ignored my last post to you.

If Jesus SUFFERED and PAID for the sins of everyone ever born,
then WHY did He say that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved?
Why did Jesus say some men were NEVER MEANT to have their sins
forgiven?

Don't you have to harmonize your theories about the Gospel
with ALL RELATED VERSES?

Or can you just IGNORE the verses you don't like?


---------- from the previous post -----------


The Gospel of the Bible says that NO MAN can "seek God"
or believe in Christ unless they were "elected" before the foundation
of the world to be "His sheep" and God "draws" them to Christ...
and ALL MEN God draws "shall come" to Christ and He will lose
NONE of them.


So where do you get the idea that MEN can save themselves
by making a DECISION (a mental work) to "believe" or "trust"
or "have faith", when the Bible says those acts of repentance
are the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE?


Second question:
Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
They were not allowed to "perceive" or to "understand" the Word
LEST AT ANY TIME they would "be converted" and their sins
would "be forgiven".


Does YOUR GOSPEL include the Words of Christ that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved?


You claim Jesus PAID for the sins of everyone ever born...
when JESUS says that some men were NEVER MEANT to be
forgiven... how do you harmonize that contradiction?
Do you just IGNORE passages you do not like?


BTW.... we see this reality confirmed in HISTORY as most men
in history were NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were never
"chosen" or "elected" to be part of "His sheep", therefore God
did not "draw" them to Christ. Again, this is the vast majority
of mankind... BILLIONS of people NEVER MEANT to be saved.


BILLIONS of people were NEVER MEANT to "be forgiven"...
and yet you claim Jesus PAID for those sins. How do you
harmonize that theory? Do you suppose Jesus SUFFERED
and PAID for those sins... only for them to be PAID again
by the sinner?


Was Jesus' Atonement just a "contingency payment" or some
kind of "promissory note"? He paid, but He did not REALLY
pay?


Jim

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 15:24 is simply indicated that the FIRST task was for
Jesus to "harvest" all the last Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
and into the Christian Kingdom. And history confirms this since
the Gospel did not go out into the world of Gentiles until AFTER
Jesus gave the "Great Commission" [Mat 28:18-20] when He
commanded ALL NATIONS be preached and receive the baptism
of the Holy Spirit... "until the end of the world"

Jim

So you do agree that Jesus first coming on Earth was for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Only after the cross, then you believe the offer was now to all nations.

We are in agreement here then.

 

[5thKingdom]

So you do agree that Jesus first coming on Earth was for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Only after the cross, then you believe the offer was now to all nations. We are in agreement here then.

No, we are not really in agreement because you separate the
mission of Jesus into two parts, before the cross and after...
they are all PART of the same ministry. Jesus came to save
"His people" from their sins. That involved "harvesting" all of
the elect OUT of the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
and into the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13], which
included BOTH Jew and Gentile.


There is not (Biblical) reason for you to separate His ministry
into a pre-cross and post-cross mission when JESUS Himself
said there were "sheep" in both the Jews and Gentiles... and
both were ONE FLOCK.


Before God "harvested" the Last Saints OUT of the Pre-Flood
Kingdom of Heaven (on Noah's Ark) He had already planned
to "harvest" the Last Jewish Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
[John 4:35] into the Christian Kingdom ALONG WITH all of the
"elect" Gentiles from the Cross until the "time-of-the-end"
[Dan 12:8-10] also shown as the "Season and Time" on earth
[Dan 7:11-12] after the END of the Christian Kingdom when
the Last Saint was "saved/sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and the Holy
Spirit was "taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] so that
Satan could be "loosened" to RULE over the Last Saints,
(called the "wise virgins"), as they we "harvested" OUT of
the Christian Kingdom into the Great Tribulation Kingdom or the
Revelation Beast.


All of the people from the Pre-Flood Kingdom and the Jewish
Kingdom and the Christian Kingdom (both Jew and Gentile)
and the Great Tribulation Kingdom are part of "His Sheep" and
are part of "one flock". If you cannot understand this reality
then you do not (really) understand the Gospel of the Bible is
God's salvation plan over four separate and distinct "Kingdoms"...
where all the elect ("His Sheep") are "harvested" into ONE
Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".


So the next time you are tempted to quote Matthew 15:24...
do not forget to add the CONTEXT of verses 25-28 (or else
you are intentionally "taking away" from the Gospel. And do not
forget to add the CONTEXT of all the verses cited above because
your "gospel" must incorporate the "whole counsel of God" and
that includes the gathering of "His people" from Adam to the LAST
of the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


Of course, I am assuming that you WANT to teach the "whole
counsel of God" and not some "designer gospel" based on your
personal interpretation of verses you LIKE... and the rejection or
intentional ignoring of verses that contradict your understanding.
Remember, Biblical Truth is NOT LIMITED to what you understand.
The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures. Since God had a PLAN to save people from Adam to
the LAST "wise virgin"... that is the CONTEXT of the Gospel.


Again, Jesus came to save "His people" from their sins. That was
not limited to the LAST of the Jewish Saints being "harvested" into
the Christian "Kingdom"... it included all of the Gentiles included in
the Christian Kingdom - and all the elect of the Pre-Flood Kingdom
...and all the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation Kingdom. You
do not understand the Gospel of the Bible (or Jesus' ministry) if
you think it was only about the Last Saints in Israel being
"harvested" [John 4:35] and the "Kingdom of God" being
TAKEN from the Jews... and GIVEN to the Christians [Mat 21:43]


Jim

 

[Guojing]

No, we are not really in agreement because you separate the
mission of Jesus into two parts, before the cross and after...
they are all PART of the same ministry. Jesus came to save
"His people" from their sins. That involved "harvesting" all of
the elect OUT of the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
and into the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13], which
included BOTH Jew and Gentile.


There is not (Biblical) reason for you to separate His ministry
into a pre-cross and post-cross mission when JESUS Himself
said there were "sheep" in both the Jews and Gentiles... and
both were ONE FLOCK.


Before God "harvested" the Last Saints OUT of the Pre-Flood
Kingdom of Heaven (on Noah's Ark) He had already planned
to "harvest" the Last Jewish Saints OUT of the Jewish Kingdom
[John 4:35] into the Christian Kingdom ALONG WITH all of the
"elect" Gentiles from the Cross until the "time-of-the-end"
[Dan 12:8-10] also shown as the "Season and Time" on earth
[Dan 7:11-12] after the END of the Christian Kingdom when
the Last Saint was "saved/sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and the Holy
Spirit was "taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] so that
Satan could be "loosened" to RULE over the Last Saints,
(called the "wise virgins"), as they we "harvested" OUT of
the Christian Kingdom into the Great Tribulation Kingdom or the
Revelation Beast.


All of the people from the Pre-Flood Kingdom and the Jewish
Kingdom and the Christian Kingdom (both Jew and Gentile)
and the Great Tribulation Kingdom are part of "His Sheep" and
are part of "one flock". If you cannot understand this reality
then you do not (really) understand the Gospel of the Bible is
God's salvation plan over four separate and distinct "Kingdoms"...
where all the elect ("His Sheep") are "harvested" into ONE
Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".


So the next time you are tempted to quote Matthew 15:24...
do not forget to add the CONTEXT of verses 25-28 (or else
you are intentionally "taking away" from the Gospel. And do not
forget to add the CONTEXT of all the verses cited above because
your "gospel" must incorporate the "whole counsel of God" and
that includes the gathering of "His people" from Adam to the LAST
of the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


Of course, I am assuming that you WANT to teach the "whole
counsel of God" and not some "designer gospel" based on your
personal interpretation of verses you LIKE... and the rejection or
intentional ignoring of verses that contradict your understanding.
Remember, Biblical Truth is NOT LIMITED to what you understand.
The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures. Since God had a PLAN to save people from Adam to
the LAST "wise virgin"... that is the CONTEXT of the Gospel.


Again, Jesus came to save "His people" from their sins. That was
not limited to the LAST of the Jewish Saints being "harvested" into
the Christian "Kingdom"... it included all of the Gentiles included in
the Christian Kingdom - and all the elect of the Pre-Flood Kingdom
...and all the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation Kingdom. You
do not understand the Gospel of the Bible (or Jesus' ministry) if
you think it was only about the Last Saints in Israel being
"harvested" [John 4:35] and the "Kingdom of God" being
TAKEN from the Jews... and GIVEN to the Christians [Mat 21:43]


Jim

You already say you believe Jesus meant what he said in Matthew 15:24.

So I don't understand why are you still objecting to my point.

 

[5thKingdom]

You already say you believe Jesus meant what he said in Matthew 15:24.
So I don't understand why are you still objecting to my point.

(1) Read the post again slowly
(2) Incorporate ALL RELATED Scriptures
(3) Then you will understand

If you REFUSE to harmonize ALL RELATED Scripture
then you will remain confused and in darkness,
teaching half-truths as if they are Biblical.

Matthew 15:24 has a CONTEXT.
You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of the verse
when you intentionally ignore BOTH the immediate context
[v25-29] and all RELATED VERSES in Scripture.

I notice you did not even TRY to refute anything I wrote...
you just continue to pretend a HALF-TRUTH is the same
as the WHOLE TRUTH.

They are NOT the same.


Jim

 

[Guojing]

(1) Read the post again slowly
(2) Incorporate ALL RELATED Scriptures
(3) Then you will understand

If you REFUSE to harmonize ALL RELATED Scripture
then you will remain confused and in darkness,
teaching half-truths as if they are Biblical.

Matthew 15:24 has a CONTEXT.
You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of the verse
when you intentionally ignore BOTH the immediate context
[v25-29] and all RELATED VERSES in Scripture.

I notice you did not even TRY to refute anything I wrote...
you just continue to pretend a HALF-TRUTH is the same
as the WHOLE TRUTH.

They are NOT the same.


Jim

Jesus first coming was for Israel only.

A simple point, do you agree or disagree?

 

[Kris Jordan]

So where do you get the idea that MEN can save themselves
by making a DECISION (a mental work) to "believe" or "trust"
or "have faith", when the Bible says those acts of repentance
are the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE? Jim

Hi 5th Kingdom,

To answer your first question, belief or faith in Jesus is not a “work” of any type and salvation is a choice on the part of God and sinners.

God, from the very beginning, chose to save sinners because of His unconditional love for them. He sent His Son, Jesus, to pay their “sin debt” in full with His blood so they could be forgiven, redeemed, and reconciled to Him. Therefore, God is always ready to impart His gift of grace to anyone who comes to Jesus in sincere faith.

However, sinners must willfully choose to receive God’s gift of salvation (i.e., believe) for it to take effect or be credited to their “account.” It is never received automatically by anyone, despite Jesus doing everything necessary to provide for it. Personal faith in Christ is the only vehicle God ordained to transport His gift of salvation into the hearts of sinners.

• Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (NASB)

• For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NASB)

• But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13 (NKJV)

• And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13 (NKJV)

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:40 (NASB)

• The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:35-36 (NJKV)

Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
They were not allowed to "perceive" or to "understand" the Word
LEST AT ANY TIME they would "be converted" and their sins
would "be forgiven".

Hi 5th Kingdom, I reject this statement (along with the concept of Predestination) based on a number of passages in Scripture. However, I am not interested in debating this topic with you. God bless.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Suspicious of what? The content I post is my open book. This is why I post mainly a lot of Scripture & ask for the same from others. What credentials do I need to do this & must we all take the same approach as you? Most of the time people that wonder such things just want to classify another's camp theology so they can instantly reject them. If it will help, I gave up camp-based theological systems some time ago.

No offense intended, but personally I'm not that interested in who you are or what you look like. I'm interested in what you and everyone else does with Scripture. Whatever credentials you think you have are ultimately not that meaningful to me. Your work is between you & our Lord. I mostly care and evaluate by what someone does in interpreting & conveying God's Word, which you mainly do in narrative, so it's a lot of work to read you & compare mentally or actually with Scripture. Also, some think they can discredit another with simple narrative. It doesn't work with me. Scripture is our standard.

FWIW, the limited amount I've read you, leaves me with much agreement, but not entirely. Also, FWIW, for you to respond to me like you did recently (all caps declaration!) was a bit bold on your part. You're really not the ultimate authority on our Text, which we are all still students of, and I can almost (not knowing everyone) guaranty you that none of us have it all figured out.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Hi GDL,

Yes, much like Paul was in certain letters of his when dealing with falsehood, I am also bold when someone claims something unbiblical.

 

[GDL]

Hi GDL,

Yes, much like Paul was in certain letters of his when dealing with falsehood, I am also bold when someone claims something unbiblical.

Easy thing to say, but, unlike Paul, you haven’t backed yourself up Scripturally. In fact, you’re so far avoiding doing so.

 

[Kris Jordan]

You've really not interacted on the Scriptures I posted re: Faith-Obedience, but summarily dismissed them with a few sentences. As I mentioned to you in another response, what is meaningful to me is Scripture, not one's narrative.

I'm going to skip your interpretational narrative for now & maybe from now on. Some of it looks a bit canned, cut & pasted, which means you're not really thinking anew. I'm happy to discuss Scripture.

Firstly, I'll say that by comparing & harmonizing the verses you post with the ones I posted to you, you'll find quite clearly the concept of Faith-Obedience. As I said before, seeming contradictions mean we need to do some more work. Now, your verses used to duel:

Actually, this won't be much of a discussion yet.

The answer to all of your questions is Faith or Belief, even Trust, whatever translation of the Greek word you prefer. But, this leaves more for discussion:

Now for my 1st question: What is Biblical Faith - what other nouns or adjectives from our Text would you apply to it to help explain what it includes or does not include? I already know you don't like the fact that faith & obedience are so vitally connected in Scripture as to be used synonymously at times. Additionally, I already know you have not answered my question re: simultaneous believing & obeying per 1 John 3:23. Do you not believe the Scriptures I presented to you or somehow interpret them as meaning something other than obedience?

2nd question: Kind of an aside, but just interested: What do you think of the popular, somewhat reformation-based phrase, "Faith Alone in Christ Alone"? By my first question here, I ask, as many in the debate do, is Faith ever alone (is it a stand-alone word with out descriptives)? Secondly, based upon what Christ said in J5:24, is "Christ Alone" Biblically accurate? I find it fascinating how much our Lord & First-Born Brother spoke of, pointed to, and glorified our Father.

3rd: Re: J5:24 again & your question to me: Do you think "believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life" requires a better understanding about belief for eternal life? In other words, and for instance, does our belief need to be "abiding" for us to have eternal life? Obviously your answer will begin to interact with your answer to my first question.

Good enough for now. Will await your answers.

Hi GDL,

Faith and obedience are distinct from each other. One's salvation occurs instantaneously without God requiring any "works of repentance or obedience" to prove a person’s faith is genuine. Jesus already knew from before the foundation of the world who would trust Him and be saved. This is why He could tell the crucified thief on the cross he would be with Him in Paradise that day. This thief did not have to prove his faith was genuine by doing good works or obeying God before it was rendered authentic by God. He trusted Jesus for his salvation while nailed to a cross and died shortly afterward. Jesus responded to this man’s sincere faith and redeemed him on the spot. The same is true for every sinner who exercises personal faith in Jesus for their forgiveness and salvation.

If you choose to believe you must obey God to be saved, that is your prerogative. If you chose to reject much of what I post or not respond to it, that is also your choice. I stand on what the Bible teaches on the subject of salvation and works, and there is nothing more to debate about it. We clearly disagree on the topic.

Have I already asked you what denomination you are a part of or which one you most closely relate to theologically? If not, I would like to know, even though I doubt I will receive an answer.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Easy thing to say, but, unlike Paul, you haven’t back yourself up Scripturally. In fact, you’re so far avoiding doing so.

Hmmm. That is an interesting assessment or conclusion.