The Noah's Flood Story

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uberd00b

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If this thread is in the wrong place please move it! I am putting this question here at a friends request, it is also in General Apologetics.

I'm not sure if you guys consider the Noaic (sp?) flood a literal event or not, if you do this question may be moot. Do you consider it literal?

Anyway, here's my question;

Given that some stories in the Bible are designed to teach us something rather than record actual events, for example:

The Garden of Eden story can be taken to explain the cost of knowledge.

The Tower of Babel story attempts to explain the origin of language.

My question is, what is the story of Noah's flood meant to teach us?

Honestly curious here as I can't puzzle it out (well I have a couple of ideas, but I'm really looking for lessons that are complimentary to Christianity).
 

Macarius

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The basic lessons, as I see them, are three fold.

1) the cost of sin is death.
2) God is faithful to preserve His people through death.
3) This is, therefore, prophetic of Christ's death and resurrection, and as the flood involved water we see it as prophetic of baptism in particular. In baptism, the sin and death of our souls is killed and drowned, but the good image of God survives and is deeply blessed to produce the new life of the Kingdom in us.

That's my take, anyway. I'm open to it being a literal story of history; I'm open to it being a localized flood which some hyperbole in the description; I'm open to it being none of the above.
 
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jckstraw72

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the Church Fathers unanimously interpreted the story literally. that being said, Macarius provides excellent lessons to be learned from it. i think its also a foreshadowing baptism -- before the waters there was wickedness and afterwards there was only righteousness.

haha whoops: i see Macarius mentioned baptism anyways. i guess i just skimmed over his 3rd point before.
 
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Kolya

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I like your views Macarius.:thumbsup:
1 Peter 3:19 alludes to the fact that Christ's Spirit was preaching to the Souls of those who were in Hades from before the 'flood'. Whether they died in/by the flood is not too clear. The NSRV states 'who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark...' It appears to mean that some people died in a catastrophic flood, however widespread or localized it was. So we can only be sure that a deluge killed a group of disobedient people! St Peter also brings in the symbolisim of Baptisim in the passage of scripture.:)
 
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rusmeister

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I think we can be reasonably sure that it was fairly widespread, whether worldwide or not - practically every ancient people has a legend referencing it; and legends and myths tend to be mirrors of the truth. At any rate, I have no trouble buying a fairly literal view and probable worldwide flood covering most land surfaces - at least the Eastern Hemisphere (which is all you really need, if it is true that the Western Hemisphere was initially unpopulated).
 
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Jacob4707

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If the descendents of Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-cain - i.e., Genesis 4:20-22 - were living such that the author of Genesis was able to say what he did about them, then obviously they didn't perish in the flood. The only ones who entered the ark were Noah's family, and he came from the line of Seth, not the line of Cain (Adam's two surviving named sons, as Abel had been killed).

This suggests that the flood was local, or at the very least that there were other survivors besides Noah's family.
 
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icxn

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That's interesting, could you flesh that out a little for me?

Thanks for all the answers guys!
The ark is the Church. The deluge is this life with all its cares and temptations. The animals are the different characters of men found in her (the church):
It should not frighten you that in the Church the bad are many and the good few. For the Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a figure of this Church, was wide below and narrow above, and at the summit measured but one cubit (Gen. 6:16). And we are to believe that below were the four-footed animals and serpents, above the birds and men. It was wide where the beasts were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in those who are spiritual. For where she suffers the morals and beastly ways of men, there she enlarges her bosom. But where she has the care of those whose lives are founded on spiritual things, the se she leads to the highest place; but since they are few, this part is narrow .... And so the more the wicked abound so much the more must we suffer them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high the piles of chaff that are burned with fire. - St. Gregory the Great (+ 604)
Similarly, - for almost everything that takes place in the Church is a type of the spiritual life of each individual - the ark is each person or rather a spiritually mature person. Someone who has labored in the practice of the commandment applying them both outwardly and inwardly. Ten times ten make a hundred - the years it that took to build the ark - and ten commandments squared make for the building of the soul (inner and outer man). The planks are of course the virtues, the animals are the beastly passions which are placed in the lower decks of the ark to signify their subjection to the mind - the human deck. The pitch that Noah used to pitch the ark is humility and sobriety, which protect the soul from the waters of the passions and especially pride (I hope you can see the relevance: pitch is black and sobriety is often associated with gloom). The dimensions of the ark reflect the trinitarian theology (300 and 30) as well as the confession that God is the creator of the world (50 for the senses), both indispensable for a structurally (read theologically) sound soul. There's more to those numbers when taken to represent the virtues but I do not have St. Maximus handy to quote his explanations (in this particular context). I only have an explanation for the number thirty (different context but applicable), which I quote below:
The Lord appeared when He was thirty years old, and with this number secretly teaches those with discernment the mysteries relating to Himself. For, mystically understood, the number thirty presents the Lord as the Creator and provident ruler of time, nature, and the intelligible realities that lie beyond visible nature. The number seven signifies that He is the Creator of time, for time has a sevenfold character. The number five signifies that He is the Creator of nature, for nature has a fivefold character because of the fivefold division of the senses. The number eight signifies that He is the Creator of intelligible realities, for intelligible realities come into being outside the cycle that is’ measured by time. And the number ten signifies that He is the provident ruler, because it is the ten holy commandments that lead men towards perfection, and also because the symbol for ten1 is the first letter of the name taken by the Lord when He became man. By adding up five, seven, eight and ten you obtain the number thirty. Thus he who truly knows how to follow the Lord as his master will understand why, should he attain the age of thirty, he will also be empowered to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom. For when through his ascetic practice he has irreproachably created the world of the virtues as if it were a world of visible nature, not allowing his soul to be diverted from its course by the hostile powers as he passes through time; and when he unerringly gathers spiritual knowledge through contemplation, and is providentially able to engender the same state in others, then he himself, whatever his physical age, is thirty years old in spirit and makes manifest in others the power of the blessings which he himself possesses.

In other words, the story of the ark is a summary of the "way of virtue," how to escape death and attain eternal life, how to avoid the passions and attain enlightenment: Tao te Ching. ;)


PS. Of course - unlike rationalists and monotonic minds - we Orthodox do not exclude the literal, albeit miraculous, events concerning the flood, as well as other allegorical interpretations that the infinite wisdom of God has interwoven with the story and which are beneficial to meditative minds.
 
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Asinner

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The ark is the Church. The deluge is this life with all its cares and temptations. The animals are the different characters of men found in her (the church):
It should not frighten you that in the Church the bad are many and the good few. For the Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a figure of this Church, was wide below and narrow above, and at the summit measured but one cubit (Gen. 6:16). And we are to believe that below were the four-footed animals and serpents, above the birds and men. It was wide where the beasts were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in those who are spiritual. For where she suffers the morals and beastly ways of men, there she enlarges her bosom. But where she has the care of those whose lives are founded on spiritual things, the se she leads to the highest place; but since they are few, this part is narrow .... And so the more the wicked abound so much the more must we suffer them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high the piles of chaff that are burned with fire. - St. Gregory the Great (+ 604)
Similarly, - for almost everything that takes place in the Church is a type of the spiritual life of each individual - the ark is each person or rather a spiritually mature person. Someone who has labored in the practice of the commandment applying them both outwardly and inwardly. Ten times ten make a hundred - the years it that took to build the ark - and ten commandments squared make for the building of the soul (inner and outer man). The planks are of course the virtues, the animals are the beastly passions which are placed in the lower decks of the ark to signify their subjection to the mind - the human deck. The pitch that Noah used to pitch the ark is humility and sobriety, which protect the soul from the waters of the passions and especially pride (I hope you can see the relevance: pitch is black and sobriety is often associated with gloom). The dimensions of the ark reflect the trinitarian theology (300 and 30) as well as the confession that God is the creator of the world (50 for the senses), both indispensable for a structurally (read theologically) sound soul. There's more to those numbers when taken to represent the virtues but I do not have St. Maximus handy to quote his explanations (in this particular context). I only have an explanation for the number thirty (different context but applicable), which I quote below:
The Lord appeared when He was thirty years old, and with this number secretly teaches those with discernment the mysteries relating to Himself. For, mystically understood, the number thirty presents the Lord as the Creator and provident ruler of time, nature, and the intelligible realities that lie beyond visible nature. The number seven signifies that He is the Creator of time, for time has a sevenfold character. The number five signifies that He is the Creator of nature, for nature has a fivefold character because of the fivefold division of the senses. The number eight signifies that He is the Creator of intelligible realities, for intelligible realities come into being outside the cycle that is’ measured by time. And the number ten signifies that He is the provident ruler, because it is the ten holy commandments that lead men towards perfection, and also because the symbol for ten1 is the first letter of the name taken by the Lord when He became man. By adding up five, seven, eight and ten you obtain the number thirty. Thus he who truly knows how to follow the Lord as his master will understand why, should he attain the age of thirty, he will also be empowered to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom. For when through his ascetic practice he has irreproachably created the world of the virtues as if it were a world of visible nature, not allowing his soul to be diverted from its course by the hostile powers as he passes through time; and when he unerringly gathers spiritual knowledge through contemplation, and is providentially able to engender the same state in others, then he himself, whatever his physical age, is thirty years old in spirit and makes manifest in others the power of the blessings which he himself possesses.

In other words, the story of the ark is a summary of the "way of virtue," how to escape death and attain eternal life, how to avoid the passions and attain enlightenment: Tao te Ching. ;)


PS. Of course - unlike rationalists and monotonic minds - we Orthodox do not exclude the literal, albeit miraculous, events concerning the flood, as well as other allegorical interpretations that the infinite wisdom of God has interwoven with the story and which are beneficial to meditative minds.

Where did you find this? Very interesting.:)

Love,
Christina
 
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jckstraw72

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the problem with a local flood is that i think it makes God a liar. God promised He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. now if it was local, then He never destroyed the earth in the first place, and thus the whole covenant and rainbow thing is completely meaningless. or if the worldwide flood is symbolic of a local flood, then a promise to not destroy the whole earth is symbolic of promising not to destroy a local area with floods --- but that has happened many times.

i like this passage a lot:
For Plato, as we said above, when he had demonstrated that a deluge had happened, said that it extended not over the whole earth, but only over the plains, and that those who fled to the highest hills saved themselves. But others say that there existed Deucalion and Pyrrha, and that they were preserved in a chest; and that Deucalion, after he came out of the chest, flung stones behind him, and that men were produced from the stones; from which circumstance they say that men in the mass are named &#8220;people.&#8221;676676 &#955;&#945;&#8057;&#962;, from &#955;&#8118;&#945;&#962;, stone.<!-- initNote(&quot;fnf_iv.ii.iii.xviii-p1.1&quot;); //--> Others, again, say that Clymenus existed in a second flood. From what has already been said, it is evident that they who wrote such things and philosophized to so little purpose are miserable, and very profane and senseless persons. But Moses, our prophet and the servant of God, in giving an account of the genesis of the world, related in what manner the flood came upon the earth, telling us, besides, how the details of the flood came about, and relating no fable of Pyrrha nor of Deucalion or Clymenus; nor, forsooth, that only the plains were submerged, and that those only who escaped to the mountains were saved.
--- Theophilus to Autolycus III.XVIII
 
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Macarius

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the problem with a local flood is that i think it makes God a liar. God promised He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. now if it was local, then He never destroyed the earth in the first place, and thus the whole covenant and rainbow thing is completely meaningless. or if the worldwide flood is symbolic of a local flood, then a promise to not destroy the whole earth is symbolic of promising not to destroy a local area with floods --- but that has happened many times.

i like this passage a lot:

--- Theophilus to Autolycus III.XVIII
Unless you accept hyperbole. If it felt like the whole earth was destroyed, then that would be an appropriate thing to say.

Hyperbole is an underappreciated facet of scriptural interpretation. It is used an aweful lot (ie "There is no one righteous, no not one" when the scriptures call a lot of people righteous and we even call two all-holy - Christ and Mary).
 
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jckstraw72

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it still leaves the problem of the covenant that God made after the flood, of promising to never again destroy the world by flood.

see the chart on this page concernign the Fathers' understanding of the Flood:http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Chapter6.htm
 
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choirfiend

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If this thread is in the wrong place please move it! I am putting this question here at a friends request, it is also in General Apologetics.

I'm not sure if you guys consider the Noaic (sp?) flood a literal event or not, if you do this question may be moot. Do you consider it literal?

Anyway, here's my question;

Given that some stories in the Bible are designed to teach us something rather than record actual events, for example:

The Garden of Eden story can be taken to explain the cost of knowledge.

The Tower of Babel story attempts to explain the origin of language.

My question is, what is the story of Noah's flood meant to teach us?

Honestly curious here as I can't puzzle it out (well I have a couple of ideas, but I'm really looking for lessons that are complimentary to Christianity).
Well, I would say that Genesis is DEFINITELY NOT about the "cost of knowledge." Anyone want to take that misconception on and explain some of the Orthodox teaching of the Fall?

And, same goes for the Tower of Babel. It does much more than explain how multiple languages appeared.
 
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Jacob4707

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the problem with a local flood is that i think it makes God a liar. God promised He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. now if it was local, then He never destroyed the earth in the first place, and thus the whole covenant and rainbow thing is completely meaningless. or if the worldwide flood is symbolic of a local flood, then a promise to not destroy the whole earth is symbolic of promising not to destroy a local area with floods --- but that has happened many times.

i like this passage a lot:

--- Theophilus to Autolycus III.XVIII

The problem with a global flood is that there is no explanation for how Jubal's, Jabal's and Tubal-cain's descendants were still around at the time Genesis was written. The Hebrew word for earth is the same as the word for land (e.g., the land of Israel); the same situation occurs in Greek.
 
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uberd00b

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The ark is the Church. The deluge is this life with all its cares and temptations. The animals are the different characters of men found in her (the church):
It should not frighten you that in the Church the bad are many and the good few. For the Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a figure of this Church, was wide below and narrow above, and at the summit measured but one cubit (Gen. 6:16). And we are to believe that below were the four-footed animals and serpents, above the birds and men. It was wide where the beasts were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in those who are spiritual. For where she suffers the morals and beastly ways of men, there she enlarges her bosom. But where she has the care of those whose lives are founded on spiritual things, the se she leads to the highest place; but since they are few, this part is narrow .... And so the more the wicked abound so much the more must we suffer them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high the piles of chaff that are burned with fire. - St. Gregory the Great (+ 604)
Similarly, - for almost everything that takes place in the Church is a type of the spiritual life of each individual - the ark is each person or rather a spiritually mature person. Someone who has labored in the practice of the commandment applying them both outwardly and inwardly. Ten times ten make a hundred - the years it that took to build the ark - and ten commandments squared make for the building of the soul (inner and outer man). The planks are of course the virtues, the animals are the beastly passions which are placed in the lower decks of the ark to signify their subjection to the mind - the human deck. The pitch that Noah used to pitch the ark is humility and sobriety, which protect the soul from the waters of the passions and especially pride (I hope you can see the relevance: pitch is black and sobriety is often associated with gloom). The dimensions of the ark reflect the trinitarian theology (300 and 30) as well as the confession that God is the creator of the world (50 for the senses), both indispensable for a structurally (read theologically) sound soul. There's more to those numbers when taken to represent the virtues but I do not have St. Maximus handy to quote his explanations (in this particular context). I only have an explanation for the number thirty (different context but applicable), which I quote below:
The Lord appeared when He was thirty years old, and with this number secretly teaches those with discernment the mysteries relating to Himself. For, mystically understood, the number thirty presents the Lord as the Creator and provident ruler of time, nature, and the intelligible realities that lie beyond visible nature. The number seven signifies that He is the Creator of time, for time has a sevenfold character. The number five signifies that He is the Creator of nature, for nature has a fivefold character because of the fivefold division of the senses. The number eight signifies that He is the Creator of intelligible realities, for intelligible realities come into being outside the cycle that is’ measured by time. And the number ten signifies that He is the provident ruler, because it is the ten holy commandments that lead men towards perfection, and also because the symbol for ten1 is the first letter of the name taken by the Lord when He became man. By adding up five, seven, eight and ten you obtain the number thirty. Thus he who truly knows how to follow the Lord as his master will understand why, should he attain the age of thirty, he will also be empowered to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom. For when through his ascetic practice he has irreproachably created the world of the virtues as if it were a world of visible nature, not allowing his soul to be diverted from its course by the hostile powers as he passes through time; and when he unerringly gathers spiritual knowledge through contemplation, and is providentially able to engender the same state in others, then he himself, whatever his physical age, is thirty years old in spirit and makes manifest in others the power of the blessings which he himself possesses.

In other words, the story of the ark is a summary of the "way of virtue," how to escape death and attain eternal life, how to avoid the passions and attain enlightenment: Tao te Ching. ;)


PS. Of course - unlike rationalists and monotonic minds - we Orthodox do not exclude the literal, albeit miraculous, events concerning the flood, as well as other allegorical interpretations that the infinite wisdom of God has interwoven with the story and which are beneficial to meditative minds.
Thanks this is just what I was looking for, a deeper and more meaningful understanding of the story, very nice!

Well, I would say that Genesis is DEFINITELY NOT about the "cost of knowledge." Anyone want to take that misconception on and explain some of the Orthodox teaching of the Fall?
No it's ok, I was really just looking for a viewpoint on the flood story, I'm aware of the use of the story of Eden as an explanation for the fall and the entrance of sin (some would say the entire Christian faith hinges on this story and that interpretation!).

Thanks for your time guys n gals! :wave:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thanks this is just what I was looking for, a deeper and more meaningful understanding of the story, very nice!

No it's ok, I was really just looking for a viewpoint on the flood story, I'm aware of the use of the story of Eden as an explanation for the fall and the entrance of sin (some would say the entire Christian faith hinges on this story and that interpretation!).

Thanks for your time guys n gals! :wave:
Hi. I have a rather lenghthy study on it and I had to study on the hebrew/greek rendering in order to hamonize that event to the NT, expecially the "Jewish/Hebrew" book of Revelation and the Hebrew is pretty difficult sometimes.

Just as the Noah and his family were a "Remnant", so do Jesus and Paul speak of a "Remnant" in the last days. Pretty interesting. :hug:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Genesis 6:11 And the Land, she is being ruined before the Elohiym and the Land, she is being filled wrong/violence/02555 chamac.
12 And Elohiym is seeing the Land and behold! she is ruined/07843 shachath, that he causes to ruin All Flesh Way of Him on the Land.
Genesis 6:13 And Elohiym is saying to Noah end of All Flesh he come before Me, that she is full the land wrong/violence from presences of them and behold Me! ruining/07843 shachath them the land.

Matthew 24:38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 "And not they know until came the flood and takes all!, thus shall be also the parousia of the Son of the Man.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel "if-ever may be the number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the sea, the Remnant shall be being Saved".
Romans 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be being Saved. according as it has been written: 'shall be arriving out of Sion the One-rescuing and He shall be turning away irreverence from Jacob'.

http://www.godandscience.org:80/apologetics/localflood.html

...........This paper has shown that the Bible declares the Genesis flood to be local in extent, though universal in its judgment of humans (with the exception of Noah and his family). The evidence presented here is purely biblical, although a strong case could also be given for extra-biblical reasons
 
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