The Nicene Creed

[Norman70]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity. My wife and myself are not members of any Adventist Church, but many of my wife's family are. Recently three of them in conversation said they had not heard of the Nicene Creed.
We have a copy of the book "Seventh Day Adventists Believe - 27 Fundamental Doctrines" and there is no reference to the Nicene Creed in it. Trinitarianism is obviously fundamental to them, the book contains three chapters, one for each part of the Holy Trinity, "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" are the chapter titles.
Some knowledge of the history of Christianity must surely be part of being a Christian, therefore I sincerely hope that the Adventist Church is not trying to deny some of it by not giving the Nicene Creed some acknowledgement in their book, and in their teaching. I am sure many members do look into history, not just of their own Church but also the history of Christianity and, of course, before that back to Creation. I am not looking for a debate nor attempting to criticize, but I am interested in the views of some of you, and should I pursue my conversations with those members of my wife's family and indicate to them they ought to spend some time looking into the full history of their faith?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity. My wife and myself are not members of any Adventist Church, but many of my wife's family are. Recently three of them in conversation said they had not heard of the Nicene Creed.
We have a copy of the book "Seventh Day Adventists Believe - 27 Fundamental Doctrines" and there is no reference to the Nicene Creed in it. Trinitarianism is obviously fundamental to them, the book contains three chapters, one for each part of the Holy Trinity, "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" are the chapter titles.
Some knowledge of the history of Christianity must surely be part of being a Christian, therefore I sincerely hope that the Adventist Church is not trying to deny some of it by not giving the Nicene Creed some acknowledgement in their book, and in their teaching. I am sure many members do look into history, not just of their own Church but also the history of Christianity and, of course, before that back to Creation. I am not looking for a debate nor attempting to criticize, but I am interested in the views of some of you, and should I pursue my conversations with those members of my wife's family and indicate to them they ought to spend some time looking into the full history of their faith?

The Nicene Creed is too Catholic for Adventists. So they can't be seen as having anything to do with it. They would rather be anything but Catholic.

 

[Norman70]

The Nicene Creed is too Catholic for Adventists.

I appreciate your comment, but here in this forum perhaps some members of the SDA Church may not. I do hope they respond, as I am interested in their views, but not to criticize.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity.

Why do you think the Adventist church does not acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history?? I understand that is taught in all the Seminaries

And in at least this form of it ... is not something Adventists specifically oppose.
So there are no attacks on the Nicene creed in our statements of faith for example.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

But "do not oppose" is not the same as "we hold to the Trinity because the Nicene creed tells us to".

1. We do not believe in baptismal regeneration - but rather in "believer's baptism". See Acts 2 and 1 Peter 3.
2. We do not claim that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "one being" but rather "one God in three Persons". The Triune Godhead with the Holy Spirit as "the third person of the Godhead"

My wife and myself are not members of any Adventist Church, but many of my wife's family are. Recently three of them in conversation said they had not heard of the Nicene Creed.

I think it is fair to say that a lot of the laity are not going through the various creeds of history.

And it is also fair to say that Adventists claim to get our statement of doctrine from the Bible - not from creeds. (Sola Scriptura is a big thing in the Adventist denomination)

We have a copy of the book "Seventh Day Adventists Believe - 27 Fundamental Doctrines" and there is no reference to the Nicene Creed in it.

Indeed - it is not based on tradition or creeds.

Trinitarianism is obviously fundamental to them, the book contains three chapters, one for each part of the Holy Trinity, "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" are the chapter titles.

True - but we are very careful not to argue proof "from creeds" and always point to the Bible as the test of the validity for that doctrine.

Some knowledge of the history of Christianity must surely be part of being a Christian,

True and if you look at the free online book "Great Controversy" you find about 14 chapters there going through all the great reformations of history and a very high percentage of SDA families have read through that.

therefore I sincerely hope that the Adventist Church is not trying to deny some of it by not giving the Nicene Creed some acknowledgement in their book, and in their teaching.

The fundamental beliefs document is a bit like the "baptist confession of faith" or the "Baptist Faith and Message" https://d3pi8hptl0qhh4.cloudfront.net/documents/bfm.pdf which also makes no mention of the Nicene creed.

But this does not mean that Baptists or Adventists do not admit that these creeds exist or that they are claiming any objection to a specific part of the Creed. It has to be taken doctrine-by-doctrine and compared to the Bible. That is the method that non-creedal groups use.

I am not looking for a debate nor attempting to criticize, but I am interested in the views of some of you, and should I pursue my conversations with those members of my wife's family and indicate to them they ought to spend some time looking into the full history of their faith?

If your purpose is to have more effective dialogue with your SDA in-laws then I think you are right to start reading the "Fundamental Beliefs" document and you might benefit from looking at the book "Great Controversy" p 49 - 351 dealing with Christianity after the time of Christ, the reformation etc. It will give you a good reference point for the POV your in-laws have on Christian history.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I appreciate your comment, but here in this forum perhaps some members of the SDA Church may not. I do hope they respond, as I am interested in their views, but not to criticize.

I am less critical of the Adventists than they are typically critical of Catholicism. Catholics recognize Adventists as Christian. I'm not sure that is reciprocated. They may not appreciate my comments. I found the last comment informative.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics recognize Adventists as Christian. I'm not sure that is reciprocated. They may not appreciate my comments. I found the last comment informative.

I have a pretty thorough understanding of what the church teaches and I don't know of any statement by the Adventist denomination that says you cannot be a saved/born-again Christian, if you are a Catholic.

We don't claim all Catholics are saved or that all Adventists are saved.
And the inverse is also true. We don't claim all of them are lost either.

Adventists are Arminian in our rejection of once-saved-always-saved and our acceptance of free will. So while we believe that all are born with a sinful nature - and have a carnal nature enslaved to sin as Romans 6 and Romans 8 point out - we believe that the supernatural "drawing of all mankind" John 12:32 that God is doing - enables choice for all mankind to the extent of choosing the Gospel or rejecting it. (But of course "all" will not choose to accept the Gospel according to what Christ said in Matthew 7)

So in Revelation 3 God says "I stand at the door and knock" not "I burst down the door and then you are a Christian".

I say this because I think that Catholic teaching is similar on a few of these points.

 

[CaspianSails]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity. My wife and myself are not members of any Adventist Church, but many of my wife's family are. Recently three of them in conversation said they had not heard of the Nicene Creed.
We have a copy of the book "Seventh Day Adventists Believe - 27 Fundamental Doctrines" and there is no reference to the Nicene Creed in it. Trinitarianism is obviously fundamental to them, the book contains three chapters, one for each part of the Holy Trinity, "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" are the chapter titles.
Some knowledge of the history of Christianity must surely be part of being a Christian, therefore I sincerely hope that the Adventist Church is not trying to deny some of it by not giving the Nicene Creed some acknowledgement in their book, and in their teaching. I am sure many members do look into history, not just of their own Church but also the history of Christianity and, of course, before that back to Creation. I am not looking for a debate nor attempting to criticize, but I am interested in the views of some of you, and should I pursue my conversations with those members of my wife's family and indicate to them they ought to spend some time looking into the full history of their faith?

LOL. I know many Christians who have never heard of any Creed. They are not taught in many churches. Neither is church history, or any thought given to those who have preceded us in this faith who are examples of Christ. They know Paul, they may even know Peter but after that for many there is just a dark hole until the present day. We live in a time when every person can get a Bible, this has only been true for a short period of time in our history. Since around the time of Wycliffe in that era. Yet we let it collect dust. Those who came before relied totally on clergy as their source of God. We have His word. Before the Word became available we had three things, Creeds, the Lords Prayer and the Ten Commandments. These were the things passed down orally by those who had no access the Words of God. Today we have the Bible which many fail to read, the Creeds are no longer repeated, the Lords prayer is not taught, and how many actually can state the Ten Commandments any more. How many can answer the question correctly, what is the Gospel, or what is atonement, what is substitutionary sacrifice, or what is imputed righteousness, what is justification? What is sanctification and how is it obtained. Instead there is a great emphasis on process or what is called orthopraxy. Orthodoxy has fallen to Orthopracxy. The practice of instead of the knowledge of. Not just the practice of the orthodox of practice that is enforced.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have a pretty thorough understanding of what the church teaches and I don't know of any statement by the Adventist denomination that says you cannot be a saved/born-again Christian, if you are a Catholic.

We don't claim all Catholics are saved or that all Adventists are saved.
And the inverse is also true. We don't claim all of them are lost either.

Interesting, considering the rhetoric I often see from SDA members about the Catholic Church. You know, maybe, that this thing about Catholics being saved (sometimes) works both ways. Adventists can be saved as well.

Adventists are Arminian in our rejection of once-saved-always-saved and our acceptance of free will. So while we believe that all are born with a sinful nature - and have a carnal nature enslaved to sin as Romans 6 and Romans 8 point out - we believe that the supernatural "drawing of all mankind" John 12:32 that God is doing - enables choice for all mankind to the extent of choosing the Gospel or rejecting it. (But of course "all" will not choose to accept the Gospel according to what Christ said in Matthew 7)

So in Revelation 3 God says "I stand at the door and knock" not "I burst down the door and then you are a Christian".

I say this because I think that Catholic teaching is similar on a few of these points.

Catholics are neither Arminian nor Calvinist. We're just not on that particular scale. Jimmy Akin once said that a Catholic can be about a three and a half point on the TULIP thing. I don't know. But I suspect we do have a few common beliefs. (But don't say that aloud as some people might go ballistic if they knew.) For example, I know Adventists are Trinitarian even if they don't all have a fondness for the Nicene Creed.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics are neither Arminian nor Calvinist. We're just not on that particular scale

I've heard some people claim that - but the issue is free will or not and as it turns out - even Catholics can have an opinion on free will.

 

[reddogs]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity. My wife and myself are not members of any Adventist Church, but many of my wife's family are. Recently three of them in conversation said they had not heard of the Nicene Creed.
We have a copy of the book "Seventh Day Adventists Believe - 27 Fundamental Doctrines" and there is no reference to the Nicene Creed in it. Trinitarianism is obviously fundamental to them, the book contains three chapters, one for each part of the Holy Trinity, "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit" are the chapter titles.
Some knowledge of the history of Christianity must surely be part of being a Christian, therefore I sincerely hope that the Adventist Church is not trying to deny some of it by not giving the Nicene Creed some acknowledgement in their book, and in their teaching. I am sure many members do look into history, not just of their own Church but also the history of Christianity and, of course, before that back to Creation. I am not looking for a debate nor attempting to criticize, but I am interested in the views of some of you, and should I pursue my conversations with those members of my wife's family and indicate to them they ought to spend some time looking into the full history of their faith?

When we try to apply our feeble standards of man, we cannot truly grasp the fullness of the mystery of the GodHead. This post describes the issue...'Creeds are inadequate attempt by man to describe the glory of the GodHead. When God Himself is the subject, there is no finality of understanding, and there is no creed that can fully explain the infinite nature of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. We must stick to the scriptures and not presume anything they do not reveal, and not deny anything they do.'

 

[chevyontheriver]

I've heard some people claim that - but the issue is free will or not and as it turns out - even Catholics can have an opinion on free will.

And my personal opinion is that God has absolute free will in everything. We, created in the image and likeness of God, have our own free will, real as given by God although it is obviously not absolute. This isn't Calvinism, where God is sovereign and we can only drool. It isn't Arminianism where we are sovereign and God in the end is forced to drool.

 

[BobRyan]

And my personal opinion is that God has absolute free will in everything.

It's not very surprising to find someone who believes God has free will. I would be more surprised to find someone who did not believe God had free will... Christian or not.

It isn't Arminianism where we are sovereign and God in the end is forced to drool.

Sounds like you have not looked into this subject much.

 

[Norman70]

I do hope this discussion which has developed is not turning out to be eristic. There are no winners or losers when we all fellowship.
I try to be a good Christian and claim to be a member of the universal church of Christ. This was well described in an Adventist Quarterly entitled "Oneness In Christ ", late 2018 I think, where they stated quite clearly that the SDA Church was not the universal church of Christ. They went on to give many Scripture references to make their point.

 

[BobRyan]

This was well described in an Adventist Quarterly entitled "Oneness In Christ ", late 2018 I think, where they stated quite clearly that the SDA Church was not the universal church of Christ. They went on to give many Scripture references to make their point.

Indeed Adventist doctrinal statements never claimed that Seventh-day Adventists are the only people that are saved. So I fully agree to that point and it is not one we even debate internally - though we hear it from the outside now and then.

But it raises the topic of God leading people no matter the denomination they are currently in - along a path that increasingly brings them together - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". Eph 4:5. Like spokes on a wheel ... as they progress towards their goal - they are coming closer together.

There is such a thing as "the end of the world" coming up soon according to Daniel and Revelation. And God has given Seventh-day Adventists the mission of declaring the Rev 14 message that, as we see in that chapter, - is the final warning given to the world before the close of probation in Rev 15:8 and the 7 last plagues in Rev 16.

It is for us in that we are to give it out -- and it is for others as they are the beneficiaries - as intended recipients.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Nicene Creed is too Catholic for Adventists. So they can't be seen as having anything to do with it. They would rather be anything but Catholic.

Unfortunately, not true... most Adventists today accept wholeheartedly the trinity doctrine contained in creed. Sadly, the heads of the SDA have been prominent in many ecumenical councils headed by the vatican.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I
I try to be a good Christian and claim to be a member of the universal church of Christ.

This is a Catholic works based religious statement... I am not a "good Christian" I am a sinner that has been redeemed by the blood of Christ... not by my works lest I boast.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed

Where in scripture or SOP does it state anything about acquiescing to a man made doctrine?

 

[BobRyan]

And my personal opinion is that God has absolute free will in everything.

agreed.

We, created in the image and likeness of God, have our own free will, real as given by God although it is obviously not absolute.

True - as created by God.

but then man fell into sin where as Romans 8:4-12 points out the lost person "does not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

God solves this by his supernatural act John 12:32 where He "draws ALL mankind unto Him" - and that supernatural drawing of God enables the free will to choose to accept the Gospel or not.

This isn't Calvinism, where God is sovereign and we can only drool.

That is for sure. but the problem in Calvinism is "arbitrary selection" where they claim God arbitrarily "zaps" some (the "few" of Matt 7) but not others (the "many" of Matt 7) to choose Him.

It isn't Arminianism where we are sovereign and God in the end is forced to drool.

Most Arminians do not believe that. We pretty much all believe that fall mankind is deprave by his sinful nature - enslaved to sin, but God supernaturally "draws all" in that was enables all "to choose" life - if they will.

the result is that even in the most extreme cases of God's outreach you can still have some failures.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

 

[BobRyan]

The Nicene Creed is too Catholic for Adventists. So they can't be seen as having anything to do with it. They would rather be anything but Catholic.

Which Nicene Creed is "too Catholic" ? (Just out of curiosity)

We point out that in John 17:1-11 Christ is not "praying to Himself" so then our belief in the Trinity is of the form "one God" Deut 6:4, "in three persons" Matt 28:19. It is not stated with reference to Catholics agreeing or disagreeing.

For Seventh-day Adventists something is not "wrong because the Catholic Church teaches it" and it also not determined to be "right just because the Catholic church teaches it".

Rather it has to be according to the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a little concerned that that the Seventh Day Adventist Church does not seem to acknowledge the existence of the Nicene Creed and its place in the history of Christianity.

There are a number of Adventist documents that talk about the Nicene Creed - but none of our doctrinal statements are based on creeds... all of our doctrines stand or fall "sola scriptura". We use the Protestant principle of testing all doctrine by what the Bible says.