the new jerusalem

[LastDazed]

Originally posted by tericl2

I would like to get at exactly what you are saying here though. Maybe I don't understand. Are you trying to say that believers as a group are not the Bride of Christ, but the city is? Are you making a distinction between the two? I would like to know this so I know if i am arguing a moot point. If you believe the saints are the bride then it doesn't matter to me what you think about the New Jerusalem.

Scriputre teaches,
The Church/Saints = The Bride

Scripture also teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Bride

Therefore, Scripture teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Church

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by LastDazed
Scriputre teaches,
The Church/Saints = The Bride

Scripture also teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Bride

Therefore, Scripture teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Church

Why do some people find this so complicated?

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

John 14: 2-3 - In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Many people try to say that they will have their own private mansion way off in never, never land. Some want to build on the moon and others want to be on their own planet. Some want to live on lakefront property and I could go on and on, but that is not what the scriptures say. I see one mansion with many rooms. Why would we go to be where He is just to separate again?? I believe this mansion will be about 1500 miles long, high and wide. That's right, it's a cube, and an awesome one at that!! Just look at one of the pearly gates. It will be made of a single, solid pearl.

Impossible you say, Not for my God!! He specializes in the impossible. I think a good picture or model of this can be seen in the Traditional Jewish Wedding. I have a thread here somewhere on that.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
John 14: 2-3 - In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Many people try to say that they will have their own private mansion way off in never, never land. Some want to build on the moon and others want to be on their own planet. Some want to live on lakefront property and I could go on and on, but that is not what the scriptures say. I see one mansion with many rooms. Why would we go to be where He is just to separate again?? I believe this mansion will be about 1500 miles long, high and wide. That's right, it's a cube, and an awesome one at that!! Just look at one of the pearly gates. It will be made of a single, solid pearl.

Impossible you say, Not for my God!! He specializes in the impossible. I think a good picture or model of this can be seen in the Traditional Jewish Wedding. I have a thread here somewhere on that.

If nothing is impossible for God, why do you want to limit his realm to a measley 1500 miles?

 

[LastDazed]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
John 14: 2-3 - In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Many people try to say that they will have their own private mansion way off in never, never land. Some want to build on the moon and others want to be on their own planet. Some want to live on lakefront property and I could go on and on, but that is not what the scriptures say. I see one mansion with many rooms. Why would we go to be where He is just to separate again?? I believe this mansion will be about 1500 miles long, high and wide. That's right, it's a cube, and an awesome one at that!! Just look at one of the pearly gates. It will be made of a single, solid pearl.

Impossible you say, Not for my God!! He specializes in the impossible. I think a good picture or model of this can be seen in the Traditional Jewish Wedding. I have a thread here somewhere on that.

Boy, You sure bring up an excellent point!
I researched the Greek for your translation "Room" in this passage. The KJV and YLT indeed use the english "mansion". I do not know what translation you are using that uses "room", but the Greek is "Mone" and it means a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode, or to make an (one's) abode. Interestingly enough, it is also used as a metaphore of God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers!

Mr Thunder, You are absolutely correct that it does not denote a seperation at all, but a continuity, which would seem to indicate a spiritual reality, as opposed to a spacial location (1500 cubed miles). Indeed, even if your stated belief of the temporal measurment turns out to be correct, it would only strengthen the metaphoric meaning, for only because of the spiritual nature of His presence, could Christs Body be in every room at the same time, indwelling us all.

Luckily, we won't have to travel out of our "room" to some "main office", only to wait in an enormously long line just to spend a few moments "face to face" with our Savior, for He will be right there with us personally, indeed inside of us, forever.

Come to think of it, it's not really that different from the reality we now enjoy! Thanks be to God!

Specializing in the impossible indeed!

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
If nothing is impossible for God, why do you want to limit his realm to a measley 1500 miles?

Hello Patmosman,

I have never, nor could I limit the Great God Almighty. It is not my plan or even what I wanted. I am just believing what He has said in His word. If the Bible says something is so, who are we to say otherwise?? Even when I read something I don't understand, if God said it, then that settles it.

Just as Mary, when she was told that she was going to give birth to a son, she didn't understand how a woman that had never had sexual relations could have a child. Credit her with great faith, because she believed in something that God told her, even though she had no way of knowing how it was possible. She could have very easily refused to exercise faith, but she trusted everything her God said, even though she didn't understand.

 

[MARANATHA2002]

A read of Revelation Chapter 21 will reveal that the city of GOD the New Jerusalem, Heaven is a physical place with three dimensions height, length, and width. The chapter also reveals other physical aspects of the place CHRIST said HE was going to prepare for us. The conversion of furlongs as we know them, to miles, is approximately 1,500 miles Imagine a cube 1,500 miles , long, wide, and high. Most of the satellites that orbit the earth are not that high up. This place is huge and CHRIST, THE CARPENTER built this place for us. It is beyond our imaginations with it’s wonders. We will be in awe. It will be made of all the precious minerals that GOD has created. It will be the most magnificent physical structure ever built, and it will be our home with CHRIST for eternity. Hear the Thunder. Peace, but not yet.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by LastDazed
Scriputre teaches,
The Church/Saints = The Bride

Scripture also teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Bride

Therefore, Scripture teaches,
The New Jerusalem = The Church

I agree with all of this, with the disclaimer that the New Jerusalem as the Bride of Christ is metaphorical and there will be an actual physical city as described in Revelation 21. My reasonng for this is, as I stated in previous posts, the manner in which God refers to Jerusalem through out scripture as a city but also as a reference to the people of Israel as a whole.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by tericl2
I agree with all of this, with the disclaimer that the New Jerusalem as the Bride of Christ is metaphorical and there will be an actual physical city as described in Revelation 21. My reasonng for this is, as I stated in previous posts, the manner in which God refers to Jerusalem through out scripture as a city but also as a reference to the people of Israel as a whole.

This sounds like the preterists that believe they are the New Jerusalem. They think they are the Jews, and they also change the prophecies of the endtimes into mere rubbish.

It would be wise to take the Lord at His word, even if you don't understand how He will bring it into reality. My God is the Great God Almighty, the God who does miracles. Noah said that God told Him that He was going to send a flood. They all laughed and perished. Now the word tells us that Jesus went to sit at His Fathers right Hand until He puts all of His enemies under His footstool, which is the earth below. For anyone who doesn't believe that Christ will return and reign for 1000 years, they don't believe the Bible, and should therefore put it down. The righteous will live by faith, just like Mary exercised when she was told that she would have a child. She didn't understand how, but she believed, and that my friend is what faith is. There are a bunch of people trying to convert people into believing only what they can see or what they can understand, but this is the opposite of faith. And then when they don't understand it spiritually, they change the meaning so they can understand it, but then it becomes their own foolishness, and it makes their faith of what God said NULL AND VOID. It appears to me that they are calling God a liar. No dice!! Fish ain't bitin'!! They should just throw the Bibles in the trash, because it is foolishness to them. Enough said.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by tericl2
I agree with all of this, with the disclaimer that the New Jerusalem as the Bride of Christ is metaphorical and there will be an actual physical city as described in Revelation 21. My reasonng for this is, as I stated in previous posts, the manner in which God refers to Jerusalem through out scripture as a city but also as a reference to the people of Israel as a whole.

Then I guess you also expect, when you see Jesus in this "actual physical city," that he will be an "actual physical" lamb.

It is just as erroneous to "over-physicalize" Scripture as it is to "over-spiritualize" it. New Jerusalem is no mere metaphor and no mere "physical" city. It is the ultimate reality of life in the presence of God, embodied by the Church. New Jerusalem is where human beings live the life they were created to live. It is a life that is defined by God (he created it to serve his purposes), characterized by the nature of God (holiness), and bestowed upon us from the realm of God ("coming down out of heaven from God").

In all references to New Jerusalem "coming down" from heaven (Revelation 3:12, 21:2, 10), the verb tense indicates continuous action, not an accomplished fact or a future event. New Jerusalem is a realm of existence that God is constantly bringing forth out of heaven; the Holy City whose boundaries are constantly being expanded throughout heaven and earth and will at last encompass all of creation, perfected and restored to God's original intention.

 

[Tallyn]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
This sounds like the preterists that believe they are the New Jerusalem. They think they are the Jews, and they also change the prophecies of the endtimes into mere rubbish.

It would be wise to take the Lord at His word, even if you don't understand how He will bring it into reality. My God is the Great God Almighty, the God who does miracles. Noah said that God told Him that He was going to send a flood. They all laughed and perished. Now the word tells us that Jesus went to sit at His Fathers right Hand until He puts all of His enemies under His footstool, which is the earth below. For anyone who doesn't believe that Christ will return and reign for 1000 years, they don't believe the Bible, and should therefore put it down. The righteous will live by faith, just like Mary exercised when she was told that she would have a child. She didn't understand how, but she believed, and that my friend is what faith is. There are a bunch of people trying to convert people into believing only what they can see or what they can understand, but this is the opposite of faith. And then when they don't understand it spiritually, they change the meaning so they can understand it, but then it becomes their own foolishness, and it makes their faith of what God said NULL AND VOID. It appears to me that they are calling God a liar. No dice!! Fish ain't bitin'!! They should just throw the Bibles in the trash, because it is foolishness to them. Enough said.

"Who died and appointed you judge?? Where did you get your plastic throne?? "   

Tallyn

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
For anyone who doesn't believe that Christ will return and reign for 1000 years, they don't believe the Bible, and should therefore put it down.

I share Eusebius' perspective of people like you.  "Limited intelligence" and too confident of your own ways to see the truth, blinded by your own arrogance to even consider the possibility that you could be wrong:

"Papias supplies other stories that reached him by word of mouth, along with some strange parables and unknown teachings of the Savior, as well as other more legendary accounts.  Among them, he says that after the resurrection of the dead there will be a thousand-year period when the kingdom of Christ will be established on this earth in material form.  I suppose that he got these notions by misunderstanding the apostolic accounts, not realizing that they had used mystic and symbolic language.  For he was a man of limited intelligence, as is clear from his books." Church History 3:39

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Good ol' Eusebius! But that's not just his opinion. It has been the consensus opinion of the Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Reformed) for nearly 1700 years!

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Good ol' Eusebius! But that's not just his opinion. It has been the consensus opinion of the Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Reformed) for nearly 1700 years!

Yes indeed, which would make the new kids on the block technically speaking "heretics".  Now, I personally don't believe that, but I am saying "technically"

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Wow! I think I opened up a can of worms. I think this would be an appropriate time to let you all gather around and scratch your itching ears again. It seems like everytime I mention something about having faith, quite a few people get angry. I really wasn't looking for an argument though, and sorry if I made someone angry. Now that we're way off the subject at hand, I see no better time to split. Geronimo!!!!

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
It seems like everytime I mention something about having faith, quite a few people get angry.

You are having faith in tradition and what other people tell you.  If your faith would be based on the Scripture I would be very happy for you...

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by Frank
Yes indeed, which would make the new kids on the block technically speaking "heretics".  Now, I personally don't believe that, but I am saying "technically"

Officially, "superstition" is the word applied to such a belief. If you want to read some heavy duty repudiation of "millennarianism," see the Catholic Catechism and the Lutheran Book of Concord.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Frank
You are having faith in tradition and what other people tell you.  If your faith would be based on the Scripture I would be very happy for you...

You couldn't be any more wrong if you tried to be. First, you don't know me.  Second, I have my own teachings. They don't come from another book. But, if you believe this, then I would be glad if you would show everyone which book I stole it from. And third Frank, I would lay odds that you are much more traditional than I am, mainly because I have gotten rid of a lot of the ones I received growing up with.

It appears that I have made you angry, or maybe that is just your attitude, and that's probably why we got into it before. I choose not to lower myself to others standards, but sometimes I must kick the dust off my feet. Who knows, we may never agree on anything? And that's probably okay? 

 

[Frank]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
You couldn't be any more wrong if you tried to be. First, you don't know me.  Second, I have my own teachings. They don't come from another book. But, if you believe this, then I would be glad if you would show everyone which book I stole it from. And third Frank, I would lay odds that you are much more traditional than I am, mainly because I have gotten rid of a lot of the ones I received growing up with.

It appears that I have made you angry, or maybe that is just your attitude, and that's probably why we got into it before. I choose not to lower myself to others standards, but sometimes I must kick the dust off my feet. Who knows, we may never agree on anything? And that's probably okay? 

The point is your reign with Christ for 1,000 years...you still didn't show us why you think you'll reign with Christ since your head will not be cut off.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Frank
The point is your reign with Christ for 1,000 years...you still didn't show us why you think you'll reign with Christ since your head will not be cut off.

Frank,

I'll be happy to see your side, but only if you can show me where it says, "Only those who are beheaded will reign with Christ for 1000 yrs."

All you have is your interpretation, but God will not act on something just because that's what you believe, and neither will He allow you to use it as an excuse. Either you believe what He says, or you don't. I don't think He will tolerate any excuses, let alone listen to them.