The new covenant ?

Studyman

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Thanks but one that I am not sure is correct lol. But the view I have of the passage is also due to the surrounding passages. How I am looking at those I don't think you agree with. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding terms or things you have said so far. So that is why I have been very narrow in my responses. LOL if I attempted to address your other comments I am afraid the post would have been enormous enough to nauseate us both. Plus I am not sure I would have addressed then well enough to be all that clearly written to weave it to these points I am now. But will say this I think Paul was speaking as a Jew under the law of Moses specifically. Since as I mentioned before, I think there is a difference between the death men die in Adam (all men from Adam), and the death men die as a direct condemnation and judgement of sin, cutting his life short.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Here is what I am talking about.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Even though we do not sin like Adam did we die.
How did Adam sin? God gave him a direct command which he disobeyed (lacking faith in the punishment)

Adam's life doesn't seem to have been cut short, rather he was cut off from living forever. The death all men die

Yes, I have heard these beliefs before. But it seems God created the realm of time itself, and in this realm everything has a beginning and an end. Even the sun is going to burn out at some point. In fact, Time itself will come to an end one day. God is not influenced or subject to time, but Adam and I am, by creation itself. Adam's flesh had a beginning and an end as do all things in our time realm. God doesn't have a beginning or end. So I don't believe God intended the Flesh of animals or men to live forever. The Spirit or Soul of man was to continue, but the Flesh was destined to end simply because that is the creation of God. Mankind was to further their fleshy existence through reproduction as it is written;

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So when Paul said "I was alive once and the Commandment came and I died", he is speaking to the part of him that God Addressed in the beginning IMO.

Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As Jesus said "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing;"

What Adam brought to all men was the death Paul said the Commandment brought him. Adam brought the need for Atonement. Someone had to pay the penalty for the first and subsequent sins of the men of the world. It is this Atonement that we seek.

Rom. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don't believe this "Death" is the natural death of all mortal flesh.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Rom. 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Is this not the "death" Paul was speaking too in Rom. 7? If this "death" is the natural death of all men, then it is still "reigning" is it not? Even those who the Scriptures say were atoned of their sin died. Did God forgive them or not? Is the "natural death" of all men punishment?

If I believe that Paul saying "Sin was not imputed" is to mean God didn't strike a man dead when he sinned, then sin is still not imputed, because men Live in lawlessness even to this day and are not punished. But sin was imputed because there was Law. In fact, the very definition of sin is transgressing God's Law.

No, I believe Paul is speaking of Spiritual death here, the death men need atonement for. And how are we forgiven? By the "LAW" of the sin offering God gave to Aaron and his sons exclusively, a LAW that the Pharisees were still "bewitching" the people with?? Or is it by "Yielding our self" to the Word of God which became Flesh?

I agree that we should narrow our focus on one or two things. The conversations get too scattered when we try to address too many things at once. I am guilty of this myself.

It is good for men to have such discussions IMO.

I might address the rest of your post later.
 
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ralliann

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Not them only, but of the Sadduccees also.
Yes that would have been the sectarian bent of the high priests. But the judges were from the sect of the Pharisees.
In other words the Sanhedrin pronounced no sentence from that seat that both sects had not agreed upon to be law. Apart from the seat, all their sectarian views were in dispute Therefore Pharisaic doctrine was "traditions" they imposed on the followers of their sect. But both sects sat in offices of jurisprudence. So everything which was not sectarian, that they agreed upon were applicable as law. The Pharisees to try and apply their traditions as law at that time would have been equal to what people complain about today as Judges which attempt to legislate from the bench. The force of law rested upon the priests, specifically the high priest in the matter of difficult matters to hard for the lower courts.
 
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Davy

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Yes that would have been the sectarian bent of the high priests. But the judges were from the sect of the Pharisees.
In other words the Sanhedrin pronounced no sentence from that seat that both sects had not agreed upon to be law. Apart from the seat, all their sectarian views were in dispute Therefore Pharisaic doctrine was "traditions" they imposed on the followers of their sect. But both sects sat in offices of jurisprudence. So everything which was not sectarian, that they agreed upon were applicable as law. The Pharisees to try and apply their traditions as law at that time would have been equal to what people complain about today as Judges which attempt to legislate from the bench. The force of law rested upon the priests, specifically the high priest in the matter of difficult matters to hard for the lower courts.

I recognize this, a prophecy Jacob gave for the tribe of Judah in the last days...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV


But like Apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1, the law was made for the ungodly and unrighteous, and thus many of God's laws are still in effect today among Christian society. But that is not what The New Covenant is about. The New Covenant is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Promise by Faith. That also is what the topic of this thread is about, not specifics dealing with lawyers.
 
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ralliann

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I recognize this, a prophecy Jacob gave for the tribe of Judah in the last days...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV


But like Apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1, the law was made for the ungodly and unrighteous, and thus many of God's laws are still in effect today among Christian society. But that is not what The New Covenant is about. The New Covenant is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Promise by Faith. That also is what the topic of this thread is about, not specifics dealing with lawyers.
All that post was about is,
The sectarian bent of the priesthood were and the sectarian bent of the Judges were not applicable to the seat of Moses. Both sects agreed concerning the judgements pronounced from the seat, hence there was no "sectarian nature" producing those sentences. All else apart from that seat were. the sectarian views were in fact left in DISPUTE. When Christ spoke of those Judges as to not do as they do, he was speaking of them as sectarians.
 
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ralliann

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I recognize this, a prophecy Jacob gave for the tribe of Judah in the last days...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Levi and Judah....TWO FAMILES CHOSEN
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.


Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
 
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ralliann

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Levi and Judah....TWO FAMILES CHOSEN
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.


Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
 
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Davy

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Levi and Judah....TWO FAMILES CHOSEN
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.


Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

THAT'S STRANGE, your interpretation of that!

The actual subject God is talking about with the "two families" is about the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", NOT just the tribes of Judah and Levi.


Jer 33:7-8
7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.
KJV

Jer 33:14-15
14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
KJV


And of course, that "Branch of righteousness" is about Jesus Christ for those events are still future.

But I find it very telling of your influences outside Scripture that you would be blinded by what these actual Jeremiah 33 Scriptures are about, and how you instead wrongly apply it to the tribes of Judah and Levi. Per God's old historical split of Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, the "house of Judah" included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The "house of Israel" included the rest of the Israelite tribes. They even had war against each other, until God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel", and removed them from the land, the "house of Judah" left in the land only. You might want to brush up on your Bible history and quit listening to those you're heeding.
 
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pinacled

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THAT'S STRANGE, your interpretation of that!

The actual subject God is talking about with the "two families" is about the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", NOT just the tribes of Judah and Levi.


Jer 33:7-8
7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.
KJV

Jer 33:14-15
14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
KJV


And of course, that "Branch of righteousness" is about Jesus Christ for those events are still future.

But I find it very telling of your influences outside Scripture that you would be blinded by what these actual Jeremiah 33 Scriptures are about, and how you instead wrongly apply it to the tribes of Judah and Levi. Per God's old historical split of Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, the "house of Judah" included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The "house of Israel" included the rest of the Israelite tribes. They even had war against each other, until God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel", and removed them from the land, the "house of Judah" left in the land only. You might want to brush up on your Bible history and quit listening to those you're heeding.

Sorcerers lie about history.
It's a form of exploitation.

All tribes were punished after turning the Torah into a dual house of civil war.
Yet still to this era the enemy sows the same form of strife upon every governing body that serves this world.

Warning to all posters ploying with private interpretations of The Holy Word given Prophets from Havel(Abel) till the last..
Remember the warning of destruction given to those who pervert both ole sh'auls letters and The Letters written by the prophets and recorded for centuries by Honorable men.

Vain fruitless arguments in the guise of guile will not be dismissed lightly..

Seems to me that manners of humility have been replaced with lack of manners.

Ask amiss and this is what will be found in conversation over the internet forums. A multitude of unbridled tongues that chatter about only to hear their own voice.
Instead of listening and waiting in patience for fruits in the spirit of knowledge.

Crying for milk from a mother that is hated reveals more than a mere lack of compassion.
It reveals a toothless lion in dire desperation to be fed till it's dying breath.

Instead of attempting to process the English word definition of covenant with a number of debates that have nothing to do with The Most High.

I strongly suggest readers look closer at the Hebrew surrounding such an English word.

Blessings Always.
 
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ralliann

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THAT'S STRANGE, your interpretation of that!


Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Oh so you interpret the above to be Israel that is the law giver between Judah's feet?
Or
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people,
that they should be no more a nation before them.

How is it that
Two chosen familes being cast off causes the people to be despised and makes them no more a nation before him?

The actual subject God is talking about with the "two families" is about the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", NOT just the tribes of Judah and Levi.
No the original subject concerned the lawgiver between Judah's feet
 
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pinacled

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Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Oh so you interpret the above to be Israel that is the law giver between Judah's feet?
Or
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people,
that they should be no more a nation before them.

How is it that
Two chosen familes being cast off causes the people to be despised and makes them no more a nation before him?


No the original subject concerned the lawgiver between Judah's feet
And who is the fourth born of Leah?
Who is born on the fourth yom of creation.
.

If you dare to challenge with a vague garment.
Be prepared to answer with understanding in the spirit.

The Torah is washed upon the feet of Those who walk humbly.

Who is between yhdh feet ?
 
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Davy

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Sorcerers lie about history.
It's a form of exploitation.

All tribes were punished after turning the Torah into a dual house of civil war.
Yet still to this era the enemy sows the same form of strife upon every governing body that serves this world.

Warning to all posters ploying with private interpretations of The Holy Word given Prophets from Havel(Abel) till the last..
Remember the warning of destruction given to those who pervert both ole sh'auls letters and The Letters written by the prophets and recorded for centuries by Honorable men.

Vain fruitless arguments in the guise of guile will not be dismissed lightly..

Seems to me that manners of humility have been replaced with lack of manners.

Ask amiss and this is what will be found in conversation over the internet forums. A multitude of unbridled tongues that chatter about only to hear their own voice.
Instead of listening and waiting in patience for fruits in the spirit of knowledge.

Crying for milk from a mother that is hated reveals more than a mere lack of compassion.
It reveals a toothless lion in dire desperation to be fed till it's dying breath.

Instead of attempting to process the English word definition of covenant with a number of debates that have nothing to do with The Most High.

I strongly suggest readers look closer at the Hebrew surrounding such an English word.

Blessings Always.

And your actual point on my coverage of the Jer.33 subject of the two houses? All it seems you did was issue vaguely directed threats regarding God's law.

Per 1 Kings 11, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of what Solomon did (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Then when God gave Jeroboam of the tribe Ephraim ten tribes to reign over as king of Israel in the north at Samaria, Jeroboam blew it by setting up two golden calf idols in the north instead. And that caused God to end the northern "kingdom of Israel" by scattering the ten tribes out of the land (1 Kings 12 thru 2 Kings 17).

So in both cases, the children of Israel rebelled against God by falling into pagan idol harlot-ship. God simply kept His promises of Deuteronomy 4 & 28 of what He would do to Israel if they rebelled against Him.
 
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ralliann

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And who is the fourth born of Leah?
Who is born on the fourth yom of creation.
.

If you dare to challenge with a vague garment.
Be prepared to answer with understanding in the spirit.

The Torah is washed upon the feet of Those who walk humbly.

Who is between yhdh feet ?
Way above my head.
 
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Davy

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Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Oh so you interpret the above to be Israel that is the law giver between Judah's feet?
Or
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people,
that they should be no more a nation before them.

How is it that
Two chosen familes being cast off causes the people to be despised and makes them no more a nation before him?


No the original subject concerned the lawgiver between Judah's feet

Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;

KJV
 
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pinacled

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Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;

KJV
Reading from Psalms about a promise given by Ya'akov without respect for Torah is a form of insult to The Entire inheritance and promise given by

The Holy One.
 
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Reading from Psalms about a promise given by Ya'akov without respect for Torah is a form of insult to The Entire inheritance and promise given by

The Holy One.

So then you worship the LETTERS on the page!

Do you also do Kabbalistic numerology mumbo jumbo with Torah script?
 
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pinacled

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And your actual point on my coverage of the Jer.33 subject of the two houses? All it seems you did was issue vaguely directed threats regarding God's law.

Per 1 Kings 11, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of what Solomon did (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Then when God gave Jeroboam of the tribe Ephraim ten tribes to reign over as king of Israel in the north at Samaria, Jeroboam blew it by setting up two golden calf idols in the north instead. And that caused God to end the northern "kingdom of Israel" by scattering the ten tribes out of the land (1 Kings 12 thru 2 Kings 17).

So in both cases, the children of Israel rebelled against God by falling into pagan idol harlot-ship. God simply kept His promises of Deuteronomy 4 & 28 of what He would do to Israel if they rebelled against Him.
And your actual point on my coverage of the Jer.33 subject of the two houses? All it seems you did was issue vaguely directed threats regarding God's law.

Per 1 Kings 11, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms because of what Solomon did (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Then when God gave Jeroboam of the tribe Ephraim ten tribes to reign over as king of Israel in the north at Samaria, Jeroboam blew it by setting up two golden calf idols in the north instead. And that caused God to end the northern "kingdom of Israel" by scattering the ten tribes out of the land (1 Kings 12 thru 2 Kings 17).

So in both cases, the children of Israel rebelled against God by falling into pagan idol harlot-ship. God simply kept His promises of Deuteronomy 4 & 28 of what He would do to Israel if they rebelled against Him.

There was never two houses.
There was only a garment lesson in time..
Before you continue further with disregard. Consider the Torah concerning keeping spoils of war.
Devarim
Deuteronomy 20
What ever sword and armor your teachers may of offered. .
Be sure and inspect whether or not it is Holy.

Consider how ole david denied armor from certain family at the crucial moment of testing.

The way of escape has been provided.

With an honest question...

Blessings Always
 
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Davy

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There was never two houses.
....

That's FUNNY!

The Bible history of God splitting old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms, one called the "house of Judah" and the other called the "house of Israel", is an easy history to read in The Bible. It begins in 1 Kings 11. This is why the Ezekiel 37 prophecy about God in final putting the two houses back together in the future is given.

But the false Jews naturally would be against the idea of the two 'houses' in God's written Word, trying to hide it from His people.

1 Kings 12:21
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon

KJV

Amazing how some men will tell a bold face LIE against the written Word of God while acting as if they know what they're talking about. Those are deceivers brethren, and they are here on this forum too brethren. Beware.
 
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