The Need to Hang With Holiness Folk

[~Zao~]

Scriptures like..."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (1 Tim 2:12) ?

Your just an embarrassment to those who are spiritually minded. Keep silent you that knows not what it means to be reborn. Go preach that to the nations who may understand the law. But when they are reborn be sure to tell them the truth of being betrothed to Christ that they have attained to.

 

[bèlla]

hanging with holy people doesn't make us holy, it only keeps us in the company and presence of these people where you can do the same with the Lord who is the true holy one...

A desire for like-minded company in relation to ones faith is fine. We do the same with friends and no one complains. I would never resign anyone to a place that didn’t feed their spirit and left them parched and frozen.

 

[Quasiblogo]

Hello, Rockytop.

One morning I tuned in to a secular radio station in Greenville, SC. The topic was denominations, and listeners were invited to caller in and to briefly state their denominational affiliation, if any, and to also summarize why they associated with such.

One gent called in to proudly say, "I'm a Wezlen". The moderator muffled a chuckle and asked, "You're a what?"

"A Wezlen, sir. I attend because we preach holiness and sing hymns."

The listener's explanation, a concise, confident, and peaceful answer, has always stuck with me. Alas, his quaint accent did not.

 

[His student]

OSAS is a false doctrine invented by man to accommodate sin in the body of Christ.....

I disagree. Like Rapture and Trinity - OSAS is a term not found directly in the Bible.

It is short hand for what some find as the overall systematically arrived at picture of a certain area of doctrinal inquiry.

Like the Trinity, it may well turn out to be a term not really justified by a complete systematic approach to the subject. But I don't believe for a minute that anyone invented it to justify sin. Perhaps to "accommodate", as you put it, the fact that even born again Christians sin and even sometimes die while in that sin before confession.

But I doubt very much that the latter is all you meant by accommodate.

.........No matter what you do...you have salvation. That is a lie.

No one I have ever talked to in my 60+ years in the faith who was of the OSAS persuasion would say that "salvation", in the complete sense, is unaffected by sin.

But to say that born again believers are lost and reborn again over and over and over throughout their lives- after being truly born again - as they sin and confess is IMO - the lie (or at least a false picture of the work that God has done on our behalf).

 

[MayYouBeBlessed]

There are no more true Holiness folk in my area. I believe I am going to drive down to Flovilla, GA and catch the camp meeting down there later this week.

http://indianspringscampmeeting.org/

Only God is holy.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hello, Rockytop.

One morning I tuned in to a secular radio station in Greenville, SC. The topic was denominations, and listeners were invited to caller in and to briefly state their denominational affiliation, if any, and to also summarize why they associated with such.

One gent called in to proudly say, "I'm a Wezlen". The moderator muffled a chuckle and asked, "You're a what?"

"A Wezlen, sir. I attend because we preach holiness and sing hymns."

The listener's explanation, a concise, confident, and peaceful answer, has always stuck with me. Alas, his quaint accent did not.

That's so cute...

Rocky, I hope you get up there. Brother Jason, I hope get over there, too.

 

[Jen35]

I disagree. Like Rapture and Trinity - OSAS is a term not found directly in the Bible.

It is short hand for what some find as the overall systematically arrived at picture of a certain area of doctrinal inquiry.

Like the Trinity, it may well turn out to be a term not really justified by a complete systematic approach to the subject. But I don't believe for a minute that anyone invented it to justify sin. Perhaps to "accommodate", as you put it, the fact that even born again Christians sin and even sometimes die while in that sin before confession.

But I doubt very much that the latter is all you meant by accommodate.

No one I have ever talked to in my 60+ years in the faith who was of the OSAS persuasion would say that "salvation", in the complete sense, is unaffected by sin.

But to say that born again believers are lost and reborn again over and over and over throughout their lives- after being truly born again - as they sin and confess is IMO - the lie (or at least a false picture of the work that God has done on our behalf).

There's no OSAS, there is a Lord and savior named Jesus who told us in the Bible he would lose none that belonged to him. So Jesus is the shepard calling and tending for his sheep now, those he are gathering in his sheep pen and claiming his. And i believe he has other sheep who are lost but is found later. Once we are saved, we don't lose our salvation, we fight the good fight by clinging to Jesus where he puts us on a different road to strengthen us where we can be sustained and not be moved to run a difficult race where there willwalways be obstacles in front of us, we may fall but Jesus helps us back up to continue running to win a prize, a prize the promises God made for us. God does not take ones salvation away because the Bible says when the son sets us free, we are truly free indeed and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom...and I believe the trinity is real...

 

[Blade]

Well this post went up down left right lol. In searching I didn't know "holiness" was tied to a group.. "that live their lifes to the best of their abilities, being holy like God."

To to stay on topic.. .I say.. AMEN!

 

[rockytopva]

All.... In this day and time labels mean very little. I would venture to say all 'Holiness' churches are different and are, if not just a little, unique from one another. RW Schambach used to preach on the virtues on holiness, and then every now and then say, "There are a lot of devils in those Holiness churches." Not to say they are all bad, some are good churches, and others are not. My dad tunes into various ministries and will say things like, "Brother so-and-so was with it" or "Brother so-and so wasn't with it today!"

This is a good generality. Some are with it, others are not.

 

[His student]

All.... In this day and time labels mean very little. I would venture to say all 'Holiness' churches are different and are, if not just a little, unique from one another. ......... This is a good generality. Some are with it, others are not.

Right on.

IMO - the holiness groups who are with it correctly are those who attempt to inspire holiness as an act of worship in thanksgiving for the salvation by grace we have in Christ.

Those who are not with it are those who require a certain level of holiness in order to attain salvation or keep the salvation they have.

These errors range from legalism in life to certain modes of baptism, belonging to a certain denomination, and to subscribing to certain doctrines like "oneness" vs. Trinitarian and such.

I currently attend a charismatic "holiness" church that refrains from violating most of those common errors.

 

[Phil W]

Your just an embarrassment to those who are spiritually minded. Keep silent you that knows not what it means to be reborn. Go preach that to the nations who may understand the law. But when they are reborn be sure to tell them the truth of being betrothed to Christ that they have attained to.

So you don't believe all the word of Paul are from God?

 

[Phil W]

I disagree. Like Rapture and Trinity - OSAS is a term not found directly in the Bible.

It is short hand for what some find as the overall systematically arrived at picture of a certain area of doctrinal inquiry.

Like the Trinity, it may well turn out to be a term not really justified by a complete systematic approach to the subject. But I don't believe for a minute that anyone invented it to justify sin. Perhaps to "accommodate", as you put it,...

Why else are false doctrines invented?

... the fact that even born again Christians sin and even sometimes die while in that sin before confession.

It is your version of 'born again" that manifests the same old man after allegedly dying to sin and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

But I doubt very much that the latter is all you meant by accommodate.
No one I have ever talked to in my 60+ years in the faith who was of the OSAS persuasion would say that "salvation", in the complete sense, is unaffected by sin.

If they really believe in OSAS they believe sin doesn't matter a whit.

But to say that born again believers are lost and reborn again over and over and over throughout their lives- after being truly born again - as they sin and confess is IMO - the lie (or at least a false picture of the work that God has done on our behalf).

One rebirth is all that should be necessary to manifest God on earth now.
To manifest servitude to sin in nowise manifests rebirth.
We can only serve one master.

 

[Phil W]

Only God is holy.

Are we not told to "Be ye holy for I am holy" ? (1 Peter 1:15-16)
God doesn't demand the impossible.

 

[~Zao~]

So you don't believe all the word of Paul are from God?

Only if they are interpreted in the spirit that they were intended for. Paul is well known for rejecting law and promoting grace. Grace is for everyone not just men. But the mission of Paul was to people who had no other means of understanding God, never mind Jesus. If you know anything about Paul at all you would know that his mode of teaching was to take what was there and transform it into what people saw in their everyday life. Marriage to God was a common form of understanding to the Jews. Paul took what was familiar to Jews to try to explain betrothal to Christ.

To do that he had to have them understand what they were in old nature to God to bring them to the new nature. No easy task. But He had a lot of knowledge of God. And he knew that God speaks and people listen, not the other way around.

I think that the work you need to do is to sort tradition from the gospels. You have no right to drive a wedge between women’s relationship with God by placing yourself in His place. Women need encouragement in their freedom to obey only Him.

When the natives of America were indoctrinated to Christianity they threw the baby out with the bathwater by making obsolete their culture. If Paul had been there he would have given them a Mars Hill speech which pointed to God’s strength and wisdom found in nature and how that reflects on the Creator.

There’s no way that you can throw out the culture of marriage but you can certainly see God and the church reflected in it. If you look a bit closer you can see Jesus in submission to God as the church is also thru His accomplishment.

The baby is the church, the bathwater is not. One is the substance and the other the shadow. When the light shines the shadow disappears. Only those who fear the light will hide in the shadows.

 

[MayYouBeBlessed]

Are we not told to "Be ye holy for I am holy" ? (1 Peter 1:15-16)
God doesn't demand the impossible.

Try to be, yes. Only God is Holy

 

[His student]

Why else are false doctrines invented?

They are not "invented" nor do they develop for the same reason in every instance.

Some develop through misunderstanding what is being said. The Trinity might be a good example of that - depending on your point of view. Transubstantiation could be another.

Others develop because a particular person or group rejects a certain concept from scripture because they can't reconcile it with others. False ideas one way or the other concerning predestination vis a vis free will might be an example of that.

But when you use the word "invent" it connotes the idea of someone purposefully developing a false doctrine for strictly nefarious reasons. That has seldom been the case with the reasons for false doctrine in the history of the church.

It is your version of 'born again" that manifests the same old man after allegedly dying to sin and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

No - it is sin still living in us even after the rebirth. We may put it to death in most instances. But it still manifests from time to time.

If you are an exception to that rule - more power to you. You have done well.

But if you are preaching that being as successful as you have been is necessary for salvation you have not done well. In fact you are preaching a false gospel. Which is no gospel at all when all is said and done.

If they really believe in OSAS they believe sin doesn't matter a whit.

Non sense. "They" know from scripture that is does matter and even more than a "whit". They always teach that so far as I have seen.

One rebirth is all that should be necessary to manifest God on earth now.

I agree. Why would you think I believe otherwise?

But - if you believe in loss of salvation for those who are in sin and you believe in confession and repentance for true believers as the scriptures clearly teach - you are obviously teaching the necessity of multiple rebirths.
QUOTE="Phil W, post: 74106026, member: 418801"]
To manifest servitude to sin in nowise manifests rebirth. We can only serve one master.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Again- why would you think I believe otherwise? Why do you wrongly assume that proponents of OSAS believe or teach otherwise?

Do you honestly believe that those who teach that those who have been truly born again have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation to the extent that their salvation is lost - are teaching that sin doesn't matter a whit?

Where do you get this stuff?

As I said - I have interacted with believers in eternal security for over 60 years and have never seen that to be the case.

 

[Phil W]

Only if they are interpreted in the spirit that they were intended for. Paul is well known for rejecting law and promoting grace. Grace is for everyone not just men. But the mission of Paul was to people who had no other means of understanding God, never mind Jesus. If you know anything about Paul at all you would know that his mode of teaching was to take what was there and transform it into what people saw in their everyday life. Marriage to God was a common form of understanding to the Jews. Paul took what was familiar to Jews to try to explain betrothal to Christ.

As you seem to recognize the hierarchy of God, Jesus, man, then woman, how is it you suddenly want to elevate women above men?
Paul knew what he was writing about, as it was of the Holy Spirit.

To do that he had to have them understand what they were in old nature to God to bring them to the new nature. No easy task. But He had a lot of knowledge of God. And he knew that God speaks and people listen, not the other way around.

Except in 1 Tim 2:12?
Why is that verse to be ignored, or worse, defied?

I think that the work you need to do is to sort tradition from the gospels. You have no right to drive a wedge between women’s relationship with God by placing yourself in His place. Women need encouragement in their freedom to obey only Him.

If they are to obey Him, why not obey what is written?
It seems you are creating exceptions to the rules.

When the natives of America were indoctrinated to Christianity they threw the baby out with the bathwater by making obsolete their culture. If Paul had been there he would have given them a Mars Hill speech which pointed to God’s strength and wisdom found in nature and how that reflects on the Creator.

Scripture please, or are you citing some man's wisdom?

There’s no way that you can throw out the culture of marriage but you can certainly see God and the church reflected in it. If you look a bit closer you can see Jesus in submission to God as the church is also thru His accomplishment.

You are providing the argument against your POV.
God, Jesus, man, woman.
God, Jesus, church, man, woman.
Not God, Jesus, woman, church, man.

The baby is the church, the bathwater is not. One is the substance and the other the shadow. When the light shines the shadow disappears. Only those who fear the light will hide in the shadows.

The elevation of women over men is of the shadows.
It is of the same mind that elevates men over Jesus.

 

[~Zao~]

As you seem to recognize the hierarchy of God, Jesus, man, then woman, how is it you suddenly want to elevate women above men?
Paul knew what he was writing about, as it was of the Holy Spirit.

I’m not and never would want to elevate myself above God as that is the beginning of the enemy of God. However, man is not God. But that is where you draw your analogy of God from in relation to women. Poor example of the truth.

Except in 1 Tim 2:12?
Why is that verse to be ignored, or worse, defied?


If they are to obey Him, why not obey what is written?
It seems you are creating exceptions to the rules.


Scripture please, or are you citing some man's wisdom?


You are providing the argument against your POV.
God, Jesus, man, woman.
God, Jesus, church, man, woman.
Not God, Jesus, woman, church, man.


The elevation of women over men is of the shadows.
It is of the same mind that elevates men over Jesus.

 

[Phil W]

Try to be, yes. Only God is Holy

I've got good news for you!
God made holiness the norm' in the NT.
How?
By allowing our rebirth from His seed. Incorruptible seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
He has given us the gift of repentance from sin, a permanent turn from wickedness.
He has provided water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our past sins, plus it allows our crucifixion and burial, with Christ.
To top it off, He allows us to be raised from the dead with Christ to walk in newness of life...with Christ.
He promises the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who will turn from sin.
And He has left us verses for our edification, like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes!
Be holy!

 

[~Zao~]

I’m not and never would want to elevate myself above God as that is the beginning of the enemy of God. However, man is not God. But that is where you draw your analogy of God from in relation to women. Poor example of the truth.

Ok so now your going to say but that is Paul’s analogy. No duh! Poor example when it condemned thousands to death for having a voice. I’m sure that’s wasn’t his intention so to promote that intention is not of God imho.

PS, I’m not arguing anymore that I have no right to the Holy Spirit. And that the HS in me has no right to speak!