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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

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    What one believes about endtimes has huge worldview implications.

    For example, after the Trade Center attack Hal Lindsey came out and said that the reason America is "not in bible prophecy" is because it has to be destroyed so that God's endtimes plan can be turned back to the Middle East and Europe. He has made many such ridiculous statements which border on treason because his apocalyptic worldview demands such a predestined defeat of America in our age. That endtimes pessimism is very destructive.

    Hal Lindsey believes the Church is destined for failure when just the opposite is true. Will Hal Lindsey and the Churches he has influenced be active in revival ministries, or building top-achievement Christian schools, or developing urban renewal ministries and Churches, or helping justice reform and neighborhood crime watches, or running for local and national office or seeking to overturn abortion, or developing strong Christian economics and businesss, etc.??? No. They will not. "You don't polish brass on a sinking ship" is the popular cry of the dispensationalists. Their founders (Scofield, Darby, etc) were very much bound by a retreat and withdraw mentality, and evangelicals and their children and grandchildren are paying a high price for it.

    I recently heard someone who was against the idea that any revivals could take place in our times. I asked him why??? His response was that the endtimes doesn't allow for such to take place. But what if we're not in the endtimes? (and we're not). So his endtimes views radically effected his practical ministry and life, and for all intents and purposes this bright young man was sidelined and disabled in the purposes of God.

    I could list countless other practical effects endtimes has on how we live today and the kinds of applied ministries the Church does. It has HUGE long-term effects on our worldview and implications for ministry.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Phoenix, although I am certain I am not worthy of such High praise, thanks for the kind words anyway.

    I came to accept the truth of past fulfillment about 2 1/2 years ago.

    I became a Christian about 15 years ago, but left the faith alltogether due in no small part to my inability to accept the myriad of contradictions inherant in the futurist view.

    Thanks to the Glory of Christ, It was Preterism that brought me back into the fold!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    It is appointed for men once to die, and after this the judgement.

    We all have an appointment with physical death, at which point we are Judged and either cast into the lake of fire, or clothed in our resurrection bodies and immediatly ushered into Heaven to Be in Gods presence forever.

    This is opposite to the futurist view that when we die, we are put in a holding tank,(sheol, Hades) apart from the presence of God, to wait until Christ finishes preparing a place for us in His fathers mansion.

    If Christ has not returned, no one can be "where he is" today.
     
  4. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    GW:

    For what it's worth, I don't seem to fit quite into any of the end times formulas I've seen so far. Lahay's book for instance makes it look as if there is going to be a rapture event right smack in the middle of the tribulation, which makes no sense to me. We those who are still alive the moment Christ returns will be changed.

    I think the lingo most helpful to you would be that I am a pre-milinnial, post trib rapturist? That is, the event described as being caught up in the air with Christ will occur on His return, before his reign, but completely after the events most people describe as "the tribulation".

    This "preterist" thing you apparently belong to I have problems with because it all hinges on such questionable gramatical and rhetorical devices.

    I don't believe anyone really knows exactly when the endtimes are, but there most certainly seems that there is supposed to be an endtime event and a new heavens and a new earth which I simply do not see here. It almost seems as if you think this present earth will go on infinitely or something, hinging it all on a bizarre intperpretation of one verse in Matthew 5.

    That's just my view, not meaning to be insulting but your interpretation honestly does just strike me as flat incomprehensible. It twists and turns from any clear understanding of the scriptures you quote, till the whole story ends up being totally unrecognizable as even coming from the text of the Bible.
     
  5. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    I think these kinds of confusing problems come from people who try to hard to explain the inexplicable. I remember nothing in the Bible about believers waiting in sheol or hades. Maybe I'm wrong. I think it was Paul who referred to those who die as "sleeping". Some things are a mystery that we are not asked to solve.
     
  6. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    This all sounds like we are working towards a kingdom of this earth, which Christ taught His kingdom was NOT of this earth. If this Hal Lindsey fellow wants to stop doing good works and mark time until Jesus returns, his problem is not so much an eschatological one but one of understanding work and faith. We work for the eternal rewards in heaven based on faith.

    Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

    It is a spiritual warfare we fight, not a physical one, I read.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Shane. We are not working towards a Kingdom. The Kingdom of God was established 19 centuries ago and it came right on time:

    "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:14-15

    We are living in obedience to the Kingdom of God.


    Next, you said: "I don't believe anyone really knows exactly when the endtimes are"

    My answer to this is that we know EXACTLY when the endtimes were, for Christ and the apostles all taught WHEN they were. The apostles stated that THEY were the last days generation (Heb 1:1-2, 1 Cor 10:11, Acts 2:15-17; 1 peter 1:20; James 5:3; Heb 9:26), and they did so because their Master told them so. Jesus told his apostles that THEY would experience the signs of the end and even be killed in their generation:


    "So, too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." --Matthew 24:33-34

    "upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." -- Matt 23:35-36


    In fact, the N.T. is unanimous on the subject.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK Shane, fair enough.
    But if that is truly your stance on the issue,
    why then did you ask me the question: "What happens when you die?" in the first place?
    :confused:
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Shane,
    your admitted puzzlement on how preterists define "heavens and earth" cut to the heart of my purpose for starting this thread.

    The Bible is not a book of the History of planet earth, although earths history is often referenced. The Bible is however, a book of the history of Gods Covenant relationship with man.

    Any interpratation that fails to recognize this fundamental truth is doomed to fail.

    You mentioned:
    "It will be interesting to hear how it is that you explain that the entire heavens and earth have been melted away and Jesus is now reigning among us without us so much as ever hearing a word about it though.

    Easy. I explain it covenantally.
    The new heavens and earth prophesied by Isaiah, Peter & John, came to replace the "heavens and earth" God created in Isaiah 51:16 after He parted the sea and brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt.
    Since we know God created the Physical planet long beofre that time, Heavens and earth in this passage must refer to something different. In fact the term "heavens and earth" in this passage referr to the creation of The Mosiac economy, And Gods exclusive Covenant relationship with Israel.

    It was that "Heavens and Earth" and the "elements" thereof (the rudementary principles of the Law) that were waxing old and about to vanish away in the late 60's AD, and finally melted with fervent heat and dissolved completely in AD70 whith the destruction of Jerusalem and The temple, removing "operational Biblical Judiasm" as Gods sole Covenant relationship with man, replacing it with the new and better covenant (New heavens and earth)

    In Isaiah 65:17-23, we see that in the New Heavens and earth, there will still be:
    Birth,
    Ageing,
    Death,
    Sinners.

    Does that sound like the edenistic, biologic, earthly paradise marked by complete behavioral errorlessness that many Christians today believe it is?

    A puzzler indeed!
     
  10. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Shane


    I have already pointed this out to you. There is a timeline explicit in Rev 20. I cannot be convinced to ignore that on the basis of the word "earth" being missing from a spot where you seem to be convinced it is required.

    Christ returns, reigns 1000 years, Satan is released again, the judgement, new heavens and new earth. This is explicitly the timeline in Rev 20.

    I note in Rev 21 the new earth is described as having no more sea. Perhaps this is the type of detail that will catch your eye. I have no idea really what you're looking for though. It is common practice in reading pretty much anything to assume continuity and to accept contextual clues.

    Jesus does not seem to agree with you that he will ever return and reign "on this earth." "A Little while longer and (the world will see Me no more,) but you will see Me, Because I live, you will live also (John 14:19) :scratch:

    So much for Jesus ever returning to earth. Jesus does not agree with your concepts and ideas here. :eek:
     
  11. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Shane

    I note in Rev 21 the new earth is described as having no more sea. Perhaps this is the type of detail that will catch your eye.



    Hi Shane The term sea is symbolic of the gentiles
    nations like the earth is symbolic for the people of Israel. The term no more sea means no more division among the two nations (Gal.3: 26-29; 6:15-16 ;Colossians 3:9-11).

    The term "earth" is often used in our translations of the book of Revelation. The Greek word yn would often be better translated "land." Its defintion is given by various Greek Lexicons as land , earth, soil, or dirt. This word does not have a "plante" meaning as does our term "earth" The Greek word is translated "earth" only 65% of the time when it appears outside Revelation.

    However, the word is translated 97% of the time "earth" in the book of Revelation. This makes many passages appear to be world-wide when the context indicates a localized action or condition in the land of Palestine.
     
  12. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Shane

    There is a timeline explicit in Rev 20. I cannot be convinced to ignore .

    Now I can agree with you on that. There was a timeline or timeframe in which these things had to be fulfilled and it cannot be ignored (Rev. 3; 6:17; 22:7,10, 12, 20)
     
  13. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Shane

    I'm sorry, but the notion that we must use a strict, literal interpratation of the 1000 year "time frame" sure sounds strange coming from someone who chooses to stretch and elasticize "shortly, soon, coming quickly, about to be, at hand, etc, etc," into 2000+years.

    If 1000 years is as a day to God, and a Day is as 1000 years, and this is a correct mathmatical formula for interprating prophetic time, the the Millennium can last only one earth day and satisfy 1000 years to God.

    2Peter 3:8 is a 2 way street!!



    Many retreat to this verse when confronted with the subject God speaks to man in the time frame he lives in. Here Peter is defended the promises of God and the timing thereof against the scoffers of his day. They taunted Christians, saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming?' (2 Peter3:4a)

    Peter says they willfully forgot the God promised to destroy the world of Noah's day, and He did it! Then Peter reminds them that God promised to destroy the heaven and earth (Old Covenant and the rulers Isaiah 51:15-16) by fire in their day.

    It is at this juncture that Peter uses the verse we are considering. See the context. He is defending the truth of God's word, especially the promises and compleatness against those who jeer and mock God's faithfulness. Peter ministers to the household of faith as he strengthens them. He says, if God promises to do a certain thing in a day, the promise is sure, and it will come on time.

    If God promises to do a certain thing in a thousand years, the promise is sure, and it will come on time. It makes no difference to God if the time is a day or a thousand years; God will be faithful, and He will be on time. The very next verse begins, God is not slack concerning His promise...(2 Peter 3:9a).

    Peter's verse strengthens the compleatness in Scripture, not the opposite. God's dependability, are incomprehensible :clap:
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    What an exellent point!

    2 Peter 3:8 is not some clever built in excuse for God to delay what He said He would not delay. It's not an "opt out" clause for God to God back on his word without actually going back on it.

    Just Like after the flood when God said He would "never again curse the ground for mans sake" or again destroy the world as He did.

    "as He did" is not an "opt out" clause either. Gods promise and words of Comfort to Noah were not simply to change the method of His destruction, but to never again destroy the World. After all, what comfort is there in getting destroyed by fire instead of water?

    Our God isn't some slimey contract lawyer, crafting loopholes and fine print just so he can say one thing and do another.
    Our God can be trusted to do exactly what He says He'll do, exactly when He says He'll do it!

    2 Peter 3:8 means that if God promised to do something tomorrow, He'll do it tomorrow, and If he promised to do something in a thousand years, He'll do it in a thousand years. He is not slack concerning His promises.
    It does not mean that if God promised to do something tomorrow, He can wait a thousand years to acomplish it and still be true to His word.

    A more ridiculous trifiling of scripture could not be imagined by this Christian.

    P70
     
  15. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    This is real qute. You either get you information second hand or worse, or you could have a reading comprehension problem, or you could just be a liar. It's already clear to me that you love to twist scripture, the same way you twist my words. I don't have time for your kind. While some are seeking unity, you took a wrong turn somewhere and got lost. Now you find yourself in Division City.
     
  16. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I am curious. In the course of human events is there anything which could happen that would cause the advocates of fulfilled prophecy to reconsider their viewpoint? I'm going to ask a lot of questions in this post so don't feel the need to go question by question and answer every single one, but I will try to restrict most of my questions to events that have at least a good chance of happening.

    Since we already see countries adopting a uniform currency, and national borders becoming less distinct we can theorize that at some point in the future that most countries will unite under one government, with a universal currency, and lead by a single man. We see many people from different denominations calling for a merger between religions, starting with more tolerant attitudes and again it is possible that someday the differences between catholics and protestants, Christians and muslims, etc. will be supressed for the greater good and unity. Now with a preterist viewpoint wouldn't all these things be good and pointing toward the kingdom of Christ filling the whole earth? As such will you support these agendas?

    Do you support current technology which would allow government to implant a chip in individuals to make life easier and more convenient? If government decided that EVERYONE should receive this chip, or similar device or mark of identification in order to reduce crime, keep track of terrorists, etc. wouldn't that be a good thing? If government decided that refusal of the identification system would be grounds for punishment wouldn't that be logical since the only people who would want to avoid the system must be wanting to engage in criminal activity or terrorism?

    With all the trouble in the mid-east it is difficult to see how the nation of Israel will ever be at peace, but assume for a moment that the US (or some other country) manages to come up with a plan whereby Israel can feel secure and still placate the Palestinians to the point that the rampant violence settles into a wary peace. Do you think that Israel will attempt to rebuild their temple if they have the means and opportunity to do so? Would it be significant to you if part of the peace process allowed for the rebuilding of the temple and resumption of sacrifice?

    If a large number of people were to suddenly disappear from the earth with no apparent explantion would you believe:

    a) There is a natural explantion although we may not currently understand it.
    b) That rapture had occured.
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

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    The advocates of fulfilled prophecy don't have to reconsider our viewpoint in the light of newspaper headlines. We have the scriptures themselves which mandate that the 1st century was the time of the last days. Christ and the apostles, who could not err, unanimously taught that theirs was the last days generation (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; 1 Peter 1:20; James 5:3; Heb 9:26; Acts 2:15-17). Christ had taught them this many times in many settings (Matt 24:33-34; Matt 10:22-23; John 21:21-22; Matt 16:27-28; Matt 16:3) and they understood the plain sense of his words:

    Matthew 24:33-34
    "So, you too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

    If Christ did not come WHEN he and the apostles said he would, then our faith is in vain, being buit upon the testimony of false prophets (and we are yet in our sins). Praise God that Christ kept his word exactly as he promised, even coming upon the Sardis Church (and all the 1st century churches) as a thief, as stated in Rev 3:2-3.
     
  18. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    GW,

    I find it strange that the only terms which you don't find elastic are terms which you believe indicate immediacy, yet every other event can be massaged to fit your viewpoint. You also prohibit God from fulfilling prophecy in BOTH a symbolic way (such as you and p70 have presented) and in a physical way. If God so chooses to fulfill HIS words in a physical way at some future time why does that negate your faith?

    So if I understand your post correctly there is no physical event which can convince you to change your mind and if someday you see Christ descend to this earth on a white horse you will give up your faith because you didn't have a full understanding of the word of God. Is that correct?
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Questions, questions, questions!

    Let's say that in the year 2007 the world becomes "One Government," and let's say that this "One Government" cruelly persecutes Christians.

    Would these events indicate that preterism is false?

    No.

    Why not? Because in the preterist view of Scripture and history, every Christ-hating empire is destined to fall in the course of history. It is either destroyed or it gradually disintegrates. Evil empires, no matter how powerful they become, are little more than a pack of mad dogs outside the eternal City of the great King. (Ps. 48:2-8; Rev. 22:15)

    Zech. 14:16-18 refers directly to every person and nation that refuses to worship Christ in the years following the Parousia:

    "Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths." (Zech. 14:16-18)

    After the Coming of the Messiah (Zech. 14:5) and the eternal establishment of the New Jerusalem, (Zech. 14:11) there have been "families of the earth" that do not worship the King, the Lord of hosts. What happens to these "Egyptians" today, among whom God does not dwell? According to the Scriptures, they have "no rain."

    They need to hear and obey Hosea 10:12:

    "Sow with a view to righteousness. Reap in accordance with kindness. Break up your fallow ground. For it is time to seek the Lord Until He comes to rain righteousness on you." (Hosea 10:12; cf. 6:3)

    Today, in the Messianic (Christian) Age, God's enemies --individuals and states-- have "no rain." They "lick the dust." (Ps. 72:9) They are on the "outside." They rise for a season, but they soon vanish like a vapor. Their goals are sheer futility. (Eccl. 1:2ff)

    Where is the Assyrian Empire today? The Babylonian Empire? The Egyptian Empire? The Grecian Empire? The Ottoman Empire? The Persian Empire? The Roman Empire? The Nazi Empire? The Soviet Empire?

    They are all licking the dust. They had no rain and they perished, because they were not founded on the imperishable Word of Christ. And it will be the same for any other empire in our future that rises up against Jesus, the King of kings.

    In contrast to those empires, where is the Church?

    She is ever-increasing, (Ps. 72:17; 115:14; Isa. 9:7; Jn. 3:30) and has been perpetually worshiping the Father and the Lamb for almost 2,000 years now. We will continue to serve God, and to have peace and fellowship with Him without interruption, "to all generations forever and ever" (Eph. 3:21) --no matter what cruelties an evil empire or religious institution might inflict upon us for a moment in history. (II Cor. 4:17)

    "Let them fear You while the sun endures, and as long as the moon, throughout all generations. May He come down like rain upon the mown grass, like showers that water the Earth. In His days may the righteous flourish, and abundance of peace till the moon is no more. May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Let the nomads of the desert bow before Him; And His enemies lick the dust." (Ps. 72:5-9)
     
  20. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I didn't ask if any of these events would prove that preterism was false, I asked whether you would reconsider your viewpoint. Are you open to the idea that prophecy has a meaning beyond your current understanding?
     
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