• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Regarding GW and Matthew 5:

    Matthew 5 is an entire sermon, the general theme of which is distinguishing between the letter of law and its spirit. It has nothing to do with eschatology.

    Using pieces and parts of verses of unrelated subject matter to make a case for an eschatological picture that is entirely foreign to the writings that clearly address eschatological matters is entirely unconvincing.

    Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28. These are directly addressed to the subject of eschatology.

    These are not insignificant nothings that are to pass without notice in one little corner of the world being described here.

    I am often dumbstruck by eschatological debates. Most of it makes no sense whatsoever to me.
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Of course. Absolutely.

    I simply maintain that Christ came back WHEN Christ and the apostles all taught -- namely, in their generation (Matt 24:34; Matt 23:36). This was at the end of the age they were born in and lived under (the Old Testament Age).

    The N.T. teaching on WHEN the second coming would be is unanimous from start to finish. They were the last days generation (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; 1 Peter 1:20; Heb 9:26; Acts 2:15-17; James 5:3; etc)
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Hi Shane.

    Are you saying that Matthew 5:17-19 is not eschatological? The passing away of Heavens/Earth is eschatological in every other place in the N.T. Why not in Matt 5:17-19? He even couples it with a future-to-them aspect of the Kingom of Heaven. Surely this passage has eschatological significance.

    With you in Christ,
    GW
     
  4. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

    24
    +0
    Shane

    There's a whole little story line there whhere Satan is bound for 1000 years and then Christ reigns on this present earth for 1000 years and then Satan is loosed and this present earth passes away. It may be figurative but whoever keeps saying it's not even there needs to be aware of this I think.


    I am always dumbstruck whan a Christian says Revelation 20 says Christ will reign on this present earth for a 1000 years. No were in chapter 20 does it mention the word "earth." :scratch: No were in chapter 20 does it mention "Christ will reign on earth."

    It does however say that the "priests of God and of Christ, shall reigh with Him a thousand years. The idea of Christ reigning on earth came from the traditions of men not the Bible. (John 18:36) :eek: According to One who knows Jesus-God His kingdom is not of this earth.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,258
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Absolutely.

    And it is today as Paul said:
    2Co 5:16
    Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

    Don't go Thunder, stand up for the truth!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

    127
    +0
    Is it better for a man to do penance for sin or to repent thereof....and sin no more...for as the jew could not to do offering for sin by the laws of sin and death for it was lifted by GRACE and since you can to recrucify Christ JESUS and your sins do NOT follow you into the new day, then perhaps it is a better thing to unburden thyself of them unto HE who is better able to carry them and try for one day to go and sin no more. amen
    adelpit
    I am nothing
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello parousia,
    I have been standing up for the truth. The verse you quoted above was in relationship to our flesh, but our bodies will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye. That means immortal. If you actually think you have received that body, then more power to ya. I have not received mine yet. I know, you think you have to die first, right?? We just keep going around in circles, like a dog chasing it's tail. It kind of reminds me of Ecclesiastes, Soloman with no Christ. Meaningless, meaningless, just like chasing the wind.

    But, I am glad that you have Jesus parousia, now I can leave this thread with a clear conscience. I want to start a new thread, and I'm going to need some time to study, so I can gather some scriptures to support my next thread. It was nice debating with you friend, and I may drop in on you from time to time. This thread just takes too much time right now. See ya !!
     
  8. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    In their early childhood we are taught by some child psychologists that babies lack what they call a sense of "permanence". That is to say, once something is gone from their sight, it is forgotten until the next time they see the thing again.

    Apparently this affliction is not unique to small babies. :D

    Seriously though, since the earth exists in all points up to Revelation 20, and since the new heavens and earth appear only at chapter 21, and since there is no literary indication that this is out of chronological order, I think it is safe to assume that the old earth is the one being discussed.

    I could, of course, be wrong. Far be it from me to claim special insights into a book that threatens every possible punishment and torment to people who add or detract from its contents. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, there was one saying that this was not mentioned AT ALL, and I felt duty bound to point out that it is at least distinclty possible that this is false.
     
  9. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    The phrase "passing away.." etc. etc. of course has some eschatological significance. No denying it. It is your interpretaion of the meaning of the whole rest of the verse, indeed the total of some 3 full chapters of scripture to which it is attached, that I found troubling.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Hi Shane.

    Perhaps we can agree on a translation and look at the text? I'll start with KJV, and you can choose another if you'd like:

    "For verily I say unto you, Until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

    Now,
    You have agreed that "until heaven and earth pass" is a key eschatological indicator. I think we both agree it is the eschatological "passing of heaven and earth" spoken of many times in the N.T..

    Jesus CLEARLY says that UNTIL that time when Heaven and Earth passes, not even the most minute jot nor tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled AND, THEREFORE, whosoever shall break one of these LEAST COMMANDS and shall teach men to do so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Shane, this gives you a very real dilemma if you believe heaven and earth have NOT passed:

    (#1) You are presently breaking even those very LEAST of the commands of the Law of Moses and are teaching others to do so -- therefore you will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
    --OR--
    (#2) You are presently doing and teaching even those very least of the 600+ commands of the Law of Moses and therefore shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven


    I look forward to hearing whether you are doing #1 or #2 in our day. However there is a bit of a problem with #2 -- namely, that, since AD70, no human being on the planet is able to do and teach even 50 percent of the Law of Moses, much less every jot and tittle concerning the LEAST of its 600+ commands. Therefore heaven and earth has passed.

    Conclusion:
    Heaven and earth have indeed passed away and we live in the New Heaven and Earth of Christ's covenant. As Jesus said concerning the demise of the 2nd Temple, "Heaven and earth will pass away BUT MY WORDS will never pass away" (Mark 13:31).
     
  11. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    I can see I'm going to have to be more specific for you as to what is wrong with excising that one statement out of a 3 chapter disertaion that is explicitly recorded as one sermon. If you look towards the end of Jesus' sermon you will see the very fundamental Christian belief that is adressed concerning the righteousness and nature of the law.

    Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    This is certainly the same sermon as the sermon starts in 5:2 with "And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying," and ends in 7:28 with "and it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings...."

    So the dilemma is not as you have phrased it. The dilemma is Jesus has taught you that every jot and tittle of the law is summed up in the Golden Rule.

    There is another difficulty of course. There were times in the past when the Jews were in exile in Babylon that the mechanisms for temple worship were not available, and yet God did not count this as a time when the law had passed away.

    The Apostles also teach that salvation has always been through faith.

    The problem with your eschatology is you base it on false doctrines, seemingly.
     
  12. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Sorry..dont mean to barge in :) .. glad to see GW posting here.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Hi BBKing. Love that guitar, Lucille!

    "Nobody loves me but my motha... and she could be jivin' too." -- Mr. BB King
     
  14. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Haha..i'm a guitar player and he's my main man. Hence the user name. Almost bought a Lucille a couple of years ago but i think it's the heaviest guitar i've ever picked up. Sticking with a nice, lite Telecaster.

    Again, great to see you here i look forward to reading your threads in the future. Gone for a couple days..hope to see you around when i come back.
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Hi Shane. Let's stay focused on what Matt 5:17-19 says to make sure we agree on what it actually says. I think you might be challenging the very meaning of the words spoken, and we have to reach some agreement or we will not be able to move beyond it.

    Jesus is talking about the Law of Moses in Matt 5:17-19. Agreed? Jesus claims that jots and tittles of the Law of Moses will pass away at some time in Christ's future. Are we still agreed? If you say 'yes' then we can proceed.

    Next Jesus says that UNTIL the eschatological time of the passing of "heaven and earth," Christ demands that every mintue detail of the Law of Moses down to the very least of its 600+ commands be kept. He says: "therefore whosoever shall break one of these LEAST commandments and shall teach others to do so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven." The passage calls for the keeping of the Law even BEYOND what the Pharisees produced in their practice and observance (Matt 5:20). Is Jesus or is Jesus not talking about the commands of the Law of Moses? If you say 'yes' then we can proceed.

    Jesus is certainly and contextually talking about the Old Covenant Law down to the very least of its 600+ commands, demanding a strictness required to the very smallest jot and tittle. Are we still agreed that this discussion is over the Mosaic Covenant Law?

    From your posts it would appear that you are not certain that Jesus is addressing the Law of Moses in this passage with its commands written down in jots and tittles. As you know, I maintain he is talking about the Law of Moses with its written jots and tittles and he goes on to cite specific commands of Mosaic Law and he STIFFENS the threshhold requirement in every case to make his point clear what he means. He has said that they must keep EVERY jot and tittle so that their righteousness could exceed that of the Pharisees (5:20). The only way to do that is to keep both the LETTER of the Law (as the Pharisees believed they did but actually did not) AND THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW (which the Pharisees always violated). Christ did BOTH in perfect harmony, and we read in the book of Acts how the Jerusalem Church also did both until they fled Jerusalem at 66AD according to the prophecy of Luke 21:20-21/Matt 24:15-20. The Jerusalem Church kept the vows, blood sacrifices, temple worship and feasts of the Law of Moses in the book of Acts all the way up until the system was dissolved at the Day of the Lord against Israel (66-70AD).

    I assume that you are not keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and thus you will be the least in the Kingdom since you don't believe heavens and earth have passed yet and the Mosaic Law is therefore still in existence.

    I look forward to your response.

    Blessings in the Covenant of Christ, the new heavens and earth.

    GW
     
  16. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

    24
    +0
    Shane

    In their early childhood we are taught by some child psychologists that babies lack what they call a sense of "permanence". That is to say, once something is gone from their sight, it is forgotten until the next time they see the thing again.

    Apparently this affliction is not unique to small babies.

    Seriously though, since the earth exists in all points up to Revelation 20, and since the new heavens and earth appear only at chapter 21, and since there is no literary indication that this is out of chronological order, I think it is safe to assume that the old earth is the one being discussed.

    I could, of course, be wrong. Far be it from me to claim special insights into a book that threatens every possible punishment and torment to people who add or detract from its contents. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, there was one saying that this was not mentioned AT ALL, and I felt duty bound to point out that it is at least distinclty possible that this is false.


    When Preterist teach covenantal eschatology we are challenging people to rightly divide the word of truth. It takes some spiritual maturity to be able to answer that challenge. Babes are unqualified. They are Christians, but their diet is milk. Those who are called to rightly divide the word of truth (God's Word) dine on solid food not the traditional teaching of men.

    The Millennial reign is only mention in Revelation 20. There is on evidence in Bible out side of Chapter 20 that Christ would reign on earth. There is ON mention or any evidence in the Bible that Christ would reign on earth a 1.000 years after the New heaven and New earth. 'Rightly dividing' literally means 'cutting it straight' (John 18:36) :)
     
  17. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    No. He is talking about any salvation that would come through works. This is made more clear later. The writings of the Apostles make it clearer in hindsight what Christ is refering to. They state quite unequivically that all salvation in all times has been by grace through faith, from Abraham on.

    If indeed Christ did both in perfect harmony, then Christ taught there was some leniency coming from somewhere, because Christ let the prostitute caught go free along with all her acusers who by their behavior also apparently had broken the law, rather than declaring exactly what all had done and executing the judgement on them all. He also when asked about the Sabbath declared that the Sabath was made for man and not the other way around.

    Perhaps the problem you are having with the jots and tittles is that you aren't interpreting THEM correctly either.

    Matthew 12:7 "But if ye had known what this meaneth, 'I will have mercy, and not sacrifice,' ye would not have condemned the guiltless"

    So yes, basically we have a very very fundamental disagreement here over the nature of the verse in question.
     
  18. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Perhaps you assume too much. Also, since the book of the Revelation is after all a divine revelation, one would expect to perhaps learn a few new things there. Thanks though for you're concern. :) We should all try to help one another for sure.
     
  19. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Hello GW and parousia,
    This is exactly why we can go no farther. Because I will never be able to agree with someone who twists the scriptures around, so that they will fit in his agenda. Yes, Jesus was talking about the law, but that is where my agreement ends. Look how you twist what is said.

    NIV - Matt.5: 17-18 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, (not) the smallest letter, (not) the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    Your words say "will", but Jesus said "will not", and then He adds "until everything is accomplished. You obviously have a small view of everything. Eternity will never end. Now, let me show you another scripture to prove my point all the more.
    Matt. 24: 35 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will (NEVER) pass away."
    And NEVER my friend, is a very, very, very long time.........And so is eternity.

    Do you know that Christ's future never will end?? But you seem to think that you can pin-point something, that may never happen at all. First, define everything in your human imagination, and then when you get that, realize that Gods ways are much higher than mans ways. So, I guess this disqualifies me. So I shall not proceed any further.
     
  20. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Thunder? I luv ya Bro, but you're using a different version than he was quoting, and the word "until" in your version fulfills the place of the implication he was giving as far as there being a time when the law will pass away.

    Lil misunderstanding. :)

    My guess would be that "untill all is accomplished" would refer to the New heavens and the New earth, but the Revelation implies that this sis another world shaking event that simply will not pass by with the world totally unaware.

    Well, I shouldn't talk for you Thunder, but this is how I'm reading it. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...