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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thats me Andrew! Glad you could Join us!
    Please feel free to add any insight to our discussion you may have. Even though I generally disagree with them, you're views are always welcome here!

    YBIC
    P70
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    It was not one age stopping, then the next age starting. These two ages actually overlapped. Jesus was teaching the disciples about the gospel, and even that the Son of Man would be handed over and killed. They did not understand Him totally at that point. They did not even know that He was going to die a cruel death, even after He clearly told them. The age Jesus was teaching them about was the one that was to come, "Grace". This explains why they were so fearful when He was crucified. After Jesus rose from the dead, He went to them, and taught them for 40 days after. This is when they finally understood the gospel, and why the Son of Man had to be crusified. The age of "Law" was finished when Jesus said, "It is finished", and then He gave up the ghost. That was the last Passover that was acceptable to God. It was at that very point that the age of law was fulfilled, but not abolished. The "Age of Grace" would then take center stage.

    And because the disciples did not fully understand the gospel, the question that they asked in Matt. 24:3 was acually three questions. The answer they got was very long, Matt. 24:4-50, and likewise it will also cover a long period of time, about 2000 years give or take.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Now I'm even more confused about your belief.

    First you said there is no way that Church age could start until Christ's resurrection, now you are saying (if I'm hearing you right) that the Church age was already underway before the resurrection, overlapping the age of the Law.

    :confused: :confused:

    Which is it really?
     
  4. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Many people lived in both ages. Those that rejected Messiah also rejected the age of grace, therefore, they chose to stay under the law. Those that received Him were no longer under the law, but forgiven by God's grace through faith in Christ.

    The "Age of Grace" did not begin until after Christ defeated sin and death at the resurrection. We are not saved because we believe that Jesus was born. He came to die for our sins.

    But Jesus came into this world in the age of law, but He started teaching His disciples about the age of grace while they were still under the law. So Jesus was born under the law, but when He died He ended the law for all who would believe. They went two days under no age. Jesus said that He would rise on the third day, and if He didn't, then we would still be under the law. But since His words proved to be true, we are now under "Grace". Death was swallowed up in victory. I really don't see the importance of when it began, this thread is not about that. In fact, you started this thread called "The NATURE of the second coming, Heavens and Earth passing, etc.", but I don't see where you are explaining your beliefs. It seems like we just keep beating around the bush.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ok TUNDER, I understand your view perfectly now, thanks for taking the time to clear it up. I do believe this is on topic because determining when one age began and the other ended, is paramount to the "nature" of the 2 ages.

    I of course understand that scripture indicates the apostles, and their contemporaries were living in the "Last Days", or "End Times" of the the Jewish age. An age which could not end as long as the temple still stood. In fact the apostles themselves still sacrificed in the temple, and admonished 1st century believers to do the same, long after Jesus' once for all sacrifice on the cross, indicating their understanding that as long as the temple was standing, they were bound to practice every Jot and tittle of the Law.

    Therefore, the age of the law, the Mosaic eonomy, "Operational biblical Judiasm", was the "present evil age" spoken of in scripture.

    Conversley, The Christian age, age of grace, Church age, eternal new covenant age, is the "age to come" spoken of in scripture. An age the apostles were promised was "at hand", and within their generation. They in turn promised the same to their contemporaries. Although it was most certainly bought and paid for on the cross, it didn't come in it's fullness until 40 years later (a biblical generation) when Jesus, on time, as promised, rode the cloud of Judgement into aopstate Israel, destroying Old Covenant temple Judiasm forever, taking the kingdom from them and giving it to a nation (the church) who would bear the fruits thereof.

    This "40 year" typology of Redemption -> Deliverance can be found in the Exodous.
    Israels freedom/redemption from Egyptian Slavery began when they left Egypt, but was not made fully manifest until 40 years later when they entered the promised land. In fact that Exodous "generation" remained in slavery to Egypt up until the day the promised land was delivered to them, even though their freedom was paid for 40 years earlier.

    Likweise, The Church, while initially purchased out of the slavery of the Law by Christ's finished work on the cross, remained slaves to the Law up until the Temple was destroyed, 40 years later, finally making manifest the way to the Holiest of all. (Hebrews 9:8)

    Peace in Christ,
    P70
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    Why do you think that the Jewish age (Law) could not end as long as the temple still stood?? Can you show the scripture for that??

    Here is more proof that the law was finished, and also that Jesus is still waiting to rule and reign on the earth.

    Hebrews 10: 11-14 - "Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. (13) Since that time He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool, because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

    Also, show me where you say that the disciples still sacrificed after the crucifiction and encouraged others to do likewise.
     
  7. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    If you will have FAITH, then what so ever you should imagine and is good is thus true and will come to pass by your FAITH, for such is the reward of the FATHER and the SON to he who will go and have ALL FAITH.
     
  8. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    There is an age of GRACE given to men to gain understanding and FAITH in the LORD. It begain with the Church and had the sign of the cross....It will continue into the Spirit and have the sign of the pentagon. You are of two bodies...the flesh and the spirit. And then comes the SPIRIT and two become three, all of one mind, for the natural man shall be taught by that SPIRIT to follow after IT and not the flesh.When upon perfection by that SPIRIT and a single day in which the natural man after the SPRIT does not sin in sleep, in wake , in thought or action, then the SPRIT presents him befoer the FATHER and the SON for translation and at that moment sameas Enoch, the natural flesh falls awawy and the spiritual flesh rises....and the FATHER and the SON dwell within....and now you are of five bodies, all of one mind. And when comes the SON and the saints rise, for 1000 years they shall walk among natural men to show them how to be changed in the twinkling of an eye and thus not have to sleep to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    The sing of the spiritual age is the five sided pentagon.
    First side the spiritual flesh of a man....IHVH
    Second side spirit of a man...................JHVH
    Third side the HOLY GHOST...................JHWH
    Fourth side the SON..............................YHVH
    Fifth side the FATHER.............................YHWH
    And thus the union of GOD and man. The LORD has set his sign down on the banks of the Potomac and men knew it not. And this sing shall be set upon the foreheads of the army of GOD and led by the avenger who with GOD in him will send the army east and west those being the handsof the LORD and the Sword of GOD will be sent south across the americas rising up inot african and when the antichrist sets his eyes north, the sword shall strike from the south.
    The LORD has rested the world upon HIS lap and HIS chin on the norht pole. HIS hands touch the pentagon and ther will rise the rod and be ginve unot the avenger. And the avenger will demonstrate unot all the body the very same miracles of the LORD JESUS and greater and same as Paul he sahll proclaim before all the body 'I am nothing before the LORD but dust and ashes He has blown life and spirit into." The churches shall tear down all their buildings and take of the funds and build for the avenger a reconstruction batallion.
     
  9. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    The avenger with the rod shall cast out all jews back into Isreal and so to the muslums unto arabia. The christian body shall be placed into all high offices in govt. and in business. The avenger shall lower taxes to 9.9 % and ask of men to tithe unto the reconstruction batallion as their heart moves them. Business shall increase 10, then 100 , then 1000 fold. The avenger shall take of the rod and beat down all the nations of the world. After him into each nation will proceed the reconstruction batallion and to rebuild those nations not as they were before his coming, but as the UNITED STATES of america will stand in GOD> The peoples of those nations sorely hate the avenger and more so when he rebuilds them. always they shall complain he makes them look bad. BUT the avenge does not this thing for their sake alone, but for the children among them who are like angels before the LORD. WHEN in 18 years they have seen the avenger come again and again always lifting the enemy up to love him by the LORD, the children when grown will leave out from under the god of their parents and come unto the God of the avenger. And when all the children become those nations they and he will take of their weapons and beat them into plowshares...this done, the avenger places the nations of the world now before the LORD JESUS Christ of nazareth. amen
    You have been told.
    adelpit346
    I am nothing
    I go in peace
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Heheh, of course I can! Have you ever known me to make a claim that I didn't provide scripture for?
    If you'll notice in my post you quoted, I already gave the reference of Hebrews 9:8 for that claim, But I'll go ahead and paste it here to save you the time:

    Hebrews 9:8-9
    "8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time(65ADish) in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--"

    Also see Matt 5:18
    "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

    Once the temple fell, The "heavens and earth" God planted in Isaiah 51:16 (Covenant Judiasm) Had passed away. No longer could every Jot and tittle of the Law be practiced, for they too had passed.
    Matt 5:18 makes those 2 events simultainous and inseperable. If each Jot and tittle of the law has passed, you can bank on the fact that Heavens and earth have passed as well.
    The raizing of Jerusalem and temple Judiasm in 66-70AD were the days of vengance when all things written were fulfilled.
    (Luke 21:20-22)

    Well THUNDER, it's proof that in 65AD or so, Jesus was still "waiting" and that the "law" was "obsloete",but thats all it proves. It does nothing to support the notion that Jesus is still waiting today, and Hebrews 8:13 clearly states that although "obsolete", the Law had, as of that time, not yet vanished.

    With pleasure ;)

    Acts 21:26
    Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them. (Paul included!)

    YBIC, P70
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thanks for your input. I must confess I am confused about your point you are attempting to make, what with the "pentagram on the patomic",(is that in scripture?) but if nothing else, your post was very entertaining!
    Drop back anytime.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Heb.9:9 just shows a picture of what was at that time, but it also says that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to take away their sins.

    in Matt.5:18 - The Lord was not talking about the practicing of the law. He was talking about the (writing itself). Here it is : "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear,( not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen), will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."

    This is not proof that everything was accomplished already. It is saying that the words of the old testament will remain until everything has been accomplished. Most of the things told in the old testament were but a shadow of the things still yet to come. It would be very easy to show things that have not happened yet. Some of them we have already talked about.
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Remember parousia,
    We are in the Age of "Grace". God is slow to wrath, because He is merciful and wants to give everyone the chance to be forgiven, and saved out of their sin. He is still gathering sheep my friend. Granted - Jesus could come right now if He wanted to, and judge the world and do away with all who perverted His ways and commands, but if He did that now, then He would also be finished gathering His sheep. He does not want any to perish, He is patient and kind. But, when He is finished gathering the sheep, look out. That will be a great and terrible day, great for His own, but terrible for the goats.
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    This was just a plan that his brothers had come up with, so the religious leaders would not bring him to justice. This was not there normal custom anymore. Listen to what the new converts were telling the religious leaders.
    Acts 21:21 - "They had been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles (big mouths) to turn away from Moses (Law), telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."

    Now lets look at their plan. It reminds me of when Abraham told Sarah to say that she was Abrahams sister.
    Acts 21:22-23 - "What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, (23) so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. (24) Take these men, join in (their) purification rights and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law."
    So by helping these men celebrate their own desires, it would appear that he still follows the law. Did the plan work?? See ya !!
     
  15. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    Someone has posted twice now that the Bible doesn't say Christ will reign 1000 years. Revelations 20:4 in both the KJV and the New American standard state that He will.

    There's a whole little story line there whhere Satan is bound for 1000 years and then Christ reigns on this present earth for 1000 years and then Satan is loosed and this present earth passes away. It may be figurative but whoever keeps saying it's not even there needs to be aware of this I think.

    What gives?
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    rollinthunder said:
    Heb.9:9 just shows a picture of what was at that time, but it also says that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to take away their sins.

    GWreplies:
    Hi RollinT, and Christ's blessings. Sorry to join in so late to the discussion.

    Heb 9:8 states that the standing Temple with its priesthood and sacrifices is the Holy Spirit's signification that the way into the true holy of holies (Heaven with Christ) was not yet available to the rest of the saints. We of course know also from John 14:1-3 that the rest of the saints get to join Chirst in Heaven at his return (and not sooner).


    rollinthunder said:
    in Matt.5:18 - The Lord was not talking about the practicing of the law. He was talking about the (writing itself). Here it is : "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear,( not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen), will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."... It is saying that the words of the old testament will remain until everything has been accomplished.

    GW repliles:
    Let's look at Matt 5:17-19 more carefully once again. You have left out the next sentence from your analysis:
    "Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    We are not just talking about keeping the law, but keeping it far better than even did the Pharisees and scribes! And so they did just that, up until AD70. The Jerusalem Church kept the law in true righteousness up until AD66 when they fled the city according to Luke 21:20-21/Matthew 24:15-20. The jewish Church had continued to honor feasts (Acts 18:21), were zealous of the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20), kept the Temple and Jerusalem as their worship headquarters (Acts 15:2, 2:46, 3:1, 5:42), and even made vows and offered blood sacrifices (Acts 21:21-26) in obedience to Matt 5:17-19. The Old Testament Heavens/Earth passed away at AD70 when the whole Old Covenant System was removed and its commands and curses no longer in effect anywhere on the planet for anyone. All that's left are Christ's laws and teachings which will NEVER pass away as did the Mosaic Heavens and Earth: "Heaven and earth will pass away, BUT MY WORDS will not pass away -- Mark 13:31

    Christ's blessings be with you.
     
  17. GW

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    Hi Rollin T:

    I just read over your speculations concerning Acts 21:21-26.

    We don't need to speculate on this, for the passage itself is explicit and clear. James is asking Paul to answer to the accusation that Paul has strayed from the decision of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. That council determined that the genties did not have to honor the Mosaic system (Acts 21:21; Acts 15:3-21) but the Hellenized jews living among the gentile nations would continue to honor Moses' Law as was status quo. The headquarters Church in Jerusalem under Peter and James were indeed ZEALOUS for the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20) and were disturbed that Paul might be breaking the decision reached at the Council. To settle the issue, Paul goes in with James' men (at James' urging) and participates with those followers of Jesus Christ in fulfilling the Nazarite Oath which included blood sacrifices (Numbers 6:13-21). James urged this to prove to the Christians of the Jerusalem Church that Paul himself "walked orderly and kept the Law" even as they all did (Acts 21:24).

    It was actually Paul's obedience to the Law that finally got him "captured" in Jerusalem (Acts 21:27-28), since the accusations of Paul's "lawlessness" were widespread.
     
  18. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I differ with you both. GW, I wasn't trying to explain the whole verses, just the points of disagreement between parousia and myself. I believe that jot and tiddle means : writings, or words written. Even though the law was fulfilled, the words will never pass away.

    Who was it that said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will NEVER pass away??" I can see that you both believe that the earth has already passed away, you must also believe that the great commission has been finished and a number of other things as well. I don't know how much longer I can debate this theory with you two. Maybe you should debate it yourselves.
     
  19. GW

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    Hi rollin. But Jesus was not saying the "words written" as if that could somehow exclude the obedience to those words -- and he says so:

    "THEREFORE, whoever shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." (Mt 5:19)

    So Jesus clearly states that obedience to the Law of Moses is absolutely required until the Mosaic Heavens and Earth passed (which was at AD70).

    Now, since you still believe the Mosaic Heavens/Earth are still intact, either you are "breaking the commandments of Moses and teaching others to do so" or you are "doing and teaching them" so as to be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't know how you try to obey Moses, but I assure you you cannot even DO fifty percent of your duty now that the Mosaic System has been removed from the planet.

    To help grasp the significance of the blessing that the Mosaic Heavens/Earth have already passed, we can be inspired by Spurgeon's sermon on the matter:

    C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Before I go, I would like to ask you both a question, parousia and GW.

    Was Jesus God in the flesh????
     
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