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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Willis

    Ok, I'll bite. No I didn't see jesus when he was manifested in the flesh.


    In Isaiah chapter 40 it tell us about the coming of John the Baptist and the manifestion or reveal of the Lord.

    The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places
    plain:

    And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. (Isaiah 4:3-5)

    Notice here that Isaiah says "All flesh" would see the first manifestion of Christ together. :scratch:

    Well no one today has ever seen Christ in the flesh so this verse cannot be taken literally or physical any more then Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will seem Him. even they who pierced Him. Revelation 1:7 has a similar effect. The Romans who pierced Jesus are dead by the way.

    Scripture is the best way to Interpret Scripture. These tow chapters are figurative language designed to show the scope and force of Christ's revelation, and especially the effect it would have upon the Jewish commonwealth. :) Remember the Bible also say Christ came to the Jews first.

    You cannot say the Bible means what it says literally and physical in one place of the Bible but not in another place for that would be a bad hermeneutical approach. :(

    Unless you can proof to me with scripture why unlike (Isaiah 4:3-5) we should believe Revelation 1:7 has to be taken literally and physically there could be another biblical view.
     
  2. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    But Isaiah 40:5 is physical and literal. Isaiah doesn't say that 'all flesh shall see the FIRST manifestation of Christ', in fact, the old testament doesn't make distinctions between the manifestations of Christ. You pointed out (correctly) that Isaiah didn't see two thousand years between the first coming and second coming. That doesn't prove that there wasn't a time lapse between his two appearances, even you and p70 admit that there are two 'appearances' of Christ with at least a thirty year difference between the two. Isaiah didn't see a thirty year gap any more than he saw a gap of thousands of years. OT prophecies combine appearances of Christ into one continuous dialogue.

    What you are quoting in Isaiah is another one of those examples where the two comings are combined into a continuous dialogue. So I understand the verse to mean that ALL FLESH will see Jesus AT THE SAME TIME. Other scripture reveals that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a judgement, so it is literally, physically possible for everyone who has ever lived to actually see Jesus in the flesh. No need to apply a 'spiritual' or figurative fullfillment to this verse in Isaiah. Does that mean you concede that since Isaiah 40:5 can be literal and physical that we can apply the same concept to 'every eye shall see him' or do you want to use a different verse to make your point?
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I am now pulling up a verse that will prove my point about the (whole world = entire church age). Matt. 28: 19-20 - "Therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the (age)."

    We are still in this age now, obeying those very same teachings. And we will remain in this age until Christ returns to rule and reign in this world a thousand years.
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, just so I'm clear, when do you contend "this age" began? The Cross? Pentacost? Jesus' Birth? Jesus' baptism? 6 day creation? Noah's departing out of the ark? Moses coming off the mountain?

    None of the above?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Isa 52:10a
    "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations;"

    P70's rendering as requested.

    "The Lord has made all nations understand His power."

    My point, Willis, in bringing this up , it that troughout the OT, God was "seen" doing 'this and that', from riding on a cloud, to bearing His "arm" and in none of those instances was God physically "seen". In fact scripture is clear that no one can physically look upon God and Live.

    Based on that unwaivering scriptural precedent, I believe we must step out of out 21st century nike's and into 1st century sandals and ask ourselves, "how would they (1st century audience) understand Jesus promise to them that they would "see" Him "coming on the clouds"?

    Coming on the clouds is a direct reference to the many "cloud comings in Judgement" of OT Jehovah where those being Judged , as well as those who were spared, absolutely, unequivically, saw (understood) who was doing the work, even though God was never physically "seen".

    There was a great tug of war in the 1st century between the Jews and Christians about "who" was actually Gods chosen ones. The Events of AD70 removed all doubt. Just like all OT Cloud coming Judgements of God, Every eye "saw" Jesus in his fathers Glory, bearing His Holy arm, coming on the clouds of Judgement against Old Covenant apostate Israel, exactly How and when He promised to do so.

    It is only when we rip this out of it's 1st century context, and force fit it into our time, that we lose sight of the true meaning of "every eye shall see", that would have been clearly understood by those who first recieved the message.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Was Jesus not the arm of God? Did not all the nations see him (in the form of dispersed Jews returning for feast days from all nations)?

    -----------"how would they (1st century audience) understand Jesus promise to them that they would "see" Him "coming on the clouds"?---------------

    The first century perspective is explained by the bible itself. Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    I don't see how the bible could make it any plainer or simpler. It takes the visible, physical, literal exit of Jesus from this earth and tells us that his return will the same way.
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    It would seem very obvious to me, that the age could not begin before the cross, because Jesus came the first time as the suffering lamb of God, to pay the sin debt for all who would believe. But this was only the beginning. All of the disciples were trembling with fear at this point and did not understand what had just happened, even though he told them ahead of time. Although the act of paying the sin debt with His earthly body was complete when He said,"It is finished", it still was not official. So, when did it become official?? In my humble opinion, it could not be official until death was defeated, which would require Jesus to rise from the dead. We are told that we must believe that He died for our sins, AND that He rose from the dead after three days. Anyone who believes that, and confesses it with their mouth, he is saved by the blood of God's Lamb. So, we have received the promise of the first coming, but we have not yet received the promise of the second coming, that will also be fulfilled when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords returns with His saints to rule and reign for 1000 literal years on this earth. This too, requires faith, and we must believe that Jesus will keep His promise.
     
  8. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Willis

    42



    But Isaiah 40:5 is physical and literal. Isaiah doesn't say that 'all flesh shall see the FIRST manifestation of Christ', in fact, the old testament doesn't make distinctions between the manifestations of Christ. You pointed out (correctly) that Isaiah didn't see two thousand years between the first coming and second coming. That doesn't prove that there wasn't a time lapse between his two appearances, even you and p70 admit that there are two 'appearances' of Christ with at least a thirty year difference between the two. Isaiah didn't see a thirty year gap any more than he saw a gap of thousands of years. OT prophecies combine appearances of Christ into one continuous dialogue.

    What you are quoting in Isaiah is another one of those examples where the two comings are combined into a continuous dialogue. So I understand the verse to mean that ALL FLESH will see Jesus AT THE SAME TIME. Other scripture reveals that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a judgement, so it is literally, physically possible for everyone who has ever lived to actually see Jesus in the flesh. No need to apply a 'spiritual' or figurative fullfillment to this verse in Isaiah. Does that mean you concede that since Isaiah 40:5 can be literal and physical that we can apply the same concept to 'every eye shall see him' or do you want to use a different verse to make your point?


    Nice try again Willis but on points. The old testament does make a didtinctions between the manifestation of Christ. (SEE Isaiah 9:6)

    In fact it tells us about the coming manifestation of John the Baptist in the very same verses of Isaiah 40. The voive of one crying in the wilderness. (Matthew 3:1) So Isaiah here is talking about the "first coming of Christ" not two comings that are combined. He is only talking about the first.

    Isaish says when John the Baptist crys in the wilderness. "Make straight in the the desert A highway for our God. The glory of the Lord shall be revealed. And all flesh shall see it together. So un-lest you and proof to me everyone today has seen the first coming of the Lord. Then the every eye shall see him literal and physical is not a biblical view. :)
     
  9. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Isaiah is talking about Christ. I don't see how you can say that Isaiah's prophecy ends at Jesus birth, or his crucifixion, or ascension or is only his first coming. It is giving details about Jesus which includes Eliah (John T. Baptist). I've shown how the verses can have a literal, physical fulfillment without resorting to smoke and mirrors.
     
  10. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Willis

    Isaiah is talking about Christ. I don't see how you can say that Isaiah's prophecy ends at Jesus birth, or his crucifixion, or ascension or is only his first coming. It is giving details about Jesus which includes Eliah (John T. Baptist). I've shown how the verses can have a literal, physical fulfillment without resorting to smoke and mirrors.

    The point here is you have failed to show how these verses were fulfilled. And the true meaning. :(
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello 1Mamifestation70a.d,
    The point here is that you fail to answer the bell, way back on page 3, post # 26. First answer that, and then we can get on to some delightful debating !! You should not go on to the next question unless you answered the first one.
     
  12. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Mamifestation

    I already covered your points earlier

    All flesh sees jesus at the same time, when all men who ever lived have been resurrected and stand before God.

    This is twice I've given you the meaning and the fulfillment.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    "shall come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"

    How did Jesus Enter heaven?
    Hidden from the eyes by a cloud (vs 9)

    Did the apostles witness the ascention with physical eyes?
    They certainly witnessed it, but can the spiritual realm of Heaven be viewed with physical eyes?

    Lets see, the Apostles in Acts 1:10 "Gazed into heaven"

    Look at Acts 7:55-56
    "55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

    The apostles in Acts 1 were given eyes to see "into heaven" much the same as Stephen was in Acts 7. The exact same wording is used in both passages, so it is safe to conclude the exact same type of "seeing" is being described as well.

    In "like manner as" Grk: "Tropos"
    Does this mean "exactly the same in every detail"?
    Lets examine it's use elsewhere.

    Matt 23:37
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together,(in like manner) as [tropos] a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

    Is Jesus expressing a disire to sprout feathers, wings, and a beak & scoop all Israel under his breast onto a nest of hay "exactly" as a hen gathers her brood?

    Clearly "Like manner as" has more to do with "similar in some fashion" than "exactly the same in every detail"
    Besides, if Jesus return were to be "exactly the same in every detail" He would return as the humble servant, He would Judge nobody, He would not have his armies of angles with Him and ONLY the apostles would see Him return.

    Again, the OT is rampant with accounts of God being "seen" Coming on the clouds in Judgement.

    Since Jesus is God, I find no scriptural reason to interprate His NT Cloud coming any differently than Those of OT Jehovah.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So the "this age" spoken of of scripture, referrs to the "church age" and began at the resurrection of Christ, and the Jewish Age of the Law ended then as well.

    THUNDER, What age then were the apostles asking Jesus about here:
    Mt 24:3
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    According to your view, the age the apostles were in at the time they asked the question was not the Church age but the Jewish age. Is your contention that they were not asking Jesus about the end of the age they were in at the time, but about the end of a "future" age that they had no idea was going to arrive in the first place?

    I just don't follow the logic THUNDER.

    Since They had no idea that the "church age" was ahead of them, how could they be asking about it's end?

    Thanks,
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Hello Parousia70,

    Are u the same preterist from the 5Solas.org forum run by kermie?

    I think you are the same person. Anyway, you know my views on preterism. I consider it a terribly erroneous teaching.

    I really hope Christians here wont buy into preterism. :(
     
  16. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    p70,

    You're getting sloppy by providing too many arguments against my position, which allows me to easily pick apart one or two statements, show how silly they are, and discount the rest of your post. You are better than that :) Put a little more effort into it or concede defeat.

    Acts 1 doesn't imply that the apostles looking INTO the heavenly realm. They looked upward seeing the sky (a better translation than 'heaven' and saw Jesus disappear into a cloud. They didn't see God, the holy of holies, angels or anything supernatural (discounting a man floating upward that is). Now with Stephen we are specificly told that the 'heavens opened up' allowing for the sight of supernatural things. Now while the words might be the same, what was seen was far different in the two cases. Since there were no other witnesses in Stepen's case we could easily state that he was indeed seeing a 'vision', at that point given 'supernatural' sight. There is nothing in Acts 1 which indicates the apostles were experiencing a vision, in fact I can't think of any verse in which a vision is revealed to more than one person, let alone a group of people.

    So let me get this straight. Do you actually believe that the ascension of Jesus was a simple vision? So did it physicly happen or not?
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Willis Deal, you made the following comment:

    "There is nothing in Acts 1 which indicates the apostles were experiencing a vision, in fact I can't think of any verse in which a vision is revealed to more than one person, let alone a group of people."

    You may find this interesting:

    Matthew 17:9 (NKJV) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    blessings

    davo
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Willis Deal, you made the following comment:

    "There is nothing in Acts 1 which indicates the apostles were experiencing a vision, in fact I can't think of any verse in which a vision is revealed to more than one person, let alone a group of people."

    You may find this interesting:

    Matthew 17:9 (NKJV) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    blessings

    davo
     
  19. 1Mamifestation70a.d

    1Mamifestation70a.d New Member

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    Willis

    All flesh sees jesus at the same time, when all men who ever lived have been resurrected and stand before God.

    This is twice I've given you the meaning and the fulfillment.

    Willis I don't wont your understanding of the verse. I would like to know what the Bible says about the verse. There is no mention that "all men who ever lived will be resurrected at that time". :(
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Are you sure you aren't simply focusing on the points you think you might be able to refute and glossing over the ones you simply don't have an answer for?
    That's what it appears like to me and perhaps to other readers here anyway, when you fail to provide a response to one particular point in favor of another.

    Well willis, Luke's gospel describes the ascension using the word epérthe (Gr. ephrqh), aorist passive of epaíro (Gr. epairw)

    This word "does not have to do with an active physical lifting up but with a lifting up of someone in stature or divinity". The "use of this word does not denote a literal and physical elevation of the person, but rather describes in figurative terms the elevation of the person in honor and dignity, i.e., exaltation". Note the similarity to Elijah's ascension:

    As Norman H. Snaith says [The Interpreter's Bible, 2 Kings] of Elisha's beholding of Elijah's theophanic chariot,

    >>> "It was not every man who could see this heavenly chariotry (6:17). The youth needed to have his eyes opened in order that he might see them." Special spiritual insight was necessary in order to "see" the ascension of Elijah as he was enwrapped by the stormcloud which then arose to heaven. That special spiritual insight was also the privilege of the disciples as they now looked for Jesus to usher in the kingdom in its fullness. This accent on the centrality of spiritual insight further attests to the impossibility of a universal beholding of Christ at his parousia. Faith is required to see the theophanic exaltation of God's chosen mediators in their vanishing amidst a stormcloud (p. 256).

    "The cloud, of course, symbolizes the Divine Glory of God, which, as always, must be hidden from men (even of faith), due to their incapacity to see it in its unveiled splendor".

    The cloud (a) manifests by symbolic and representational means the presence of the Divine Glory, (b) veils that glory from men, who cannot behold it, (c) exalts the one enveloped by the intimacy of the association with the Divine Glory, and (d) signals by its physical and visible rise into the heavens the spiritual and invisible nature of the exaltation of the one hidden by and enveloped within the cloud (P. 257).

    "We must emphasize that the Lord himself is invisible and is only made visible by the symbolic and representational cloud, which reveals the presence of his Divine Glory by hiding it".<<<<

    Willis, while Acts 1:10-11 is generally cited by you and most futurists, to prove that the glorified Jesus will himself be personally visible at his second coming, it is in fact the case that the glorified Jesus cannot be seen by any man because his glorified person is veiled, hidden, and enveloped within the cloud of God's presence. ...Just as the disciples had not seen Christ going up to heaven, but rather the cloud which veiled him and his Divine Glory, so in the same manner, i.e., hidden within the cloud, he would return.

    Thats my story and I'm stickin to it! :p
    YBIC,P70
     
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