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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. Boy you really know how to show your ignorance of the Bible don't you? Just where do you think is the fulfillment of the "type or shadow" of the land that was promised to Abraham? :scratch:

    Abraham and all spiritual Israel died in faith and were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. They all desired a better, that is a heavenly country (Hebrews 11:13-16) The fulfillment of that literal land came in Christ. But now they desire a batter, that is a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God for He has prepared a city for them vs. 16

    Abraham unlike "all futurist today" know the literal land was not the fulfillment of God's promise but a type or shadow of that fulfillment that is why he looked for a city or land which has foundations, whose buider and maker is God. (Hebrews 11:8-10) This has been in the Bible all the time :)
     

  2. The problem with the Premillennialists view that the Lord must "reign on the earth" is that this is simply not true. The doctrine of premillennalim has many problems.
    " Premillennialism" teach that Christ will set up his kingdom on earth and reign a 1,000 years. But lest see what the Bible has to say. There are some passages concerning Christ being priest and king that need to be considered in view of the doctrine of premillennialism.

    In Psalms 13:2, the Lord said he would raise up one, of the fruit of David, to sit on David's throne. Peter declared in Acts 2:30 that this one was Christ. In Luke 1:31-33 the angel Gabriel told Mary that the child she was to have was to be the Son of the Highest and that the Lord God would give unto him the throne of his father David. Peter declared in Acts 2 that Christ was at the right hand of God on the throne of David. Mark 16:19 informs us that Jesus ascended into heaven and sat down on the right hand of God. Many New Testament passages show that Jesus is now at the right hand of God; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1.

    The Old Testament tells us that Christ, the Branch would, "Build the temple of the Lord, and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne, and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both" (Zechariah 6:12-13). Notice that Christ was to be priest while on his throne or priest and king at the same time. Christ was a priest after the order of Melchisedec who was also priest and king at the same time, Hebrews 7:1.

    Now think about it, if Christ was to be priest and king at the same time and if it can be shown that he could be neither priest nor king on earth, then premillennialism will have been shown to be a false doctrine.

    Since he was to be priest and king at the same time when one proves Jesus could not be one of these on earth he has proved that Jesus could be neither on earth. However, let us consider both positions of king and priest separately.
    First, consider Christ as priest on earth. The book of Hebrews tells us that we have a high priest who is now seated at the right hand of God, Hebrews 5:14; 8:1. We learn from Hebrews 8:4 that Christ could not be a priest on earth. Why? He was of the tribe of Judah, Hebrews 6:14. Remember, Zechariah 6:12,13 said Jesus would be priest and king at the same time.

    So then we have seen from the Scriptures that Christ could not be a priest on earth, therefore he could not be a king on earth.

    Next consider Christ as king. Jeremiah said of Jechonias or Coniah and his heirs, "Thus saith the Lord, write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30). When one reads the genealogy of Christ in Matthew 1:12, Jechonias was in the lineage of Christ. Thus Jesus would not prosper sitting on the throne of David in Judah. Peter declared in Acts 2:30-33 that Christ was sitting on the throne of David at the right hand of God. Notice, Christ was on the right hand of God on David's throne not in Judah. Therefore, Christ according to Jeremiah 22:30 could not be king on earth.

    Christ is presently reigning as King. Remember, Christ was to sit and rule on his throne while he was priest. Christ is now on the right hand of God as both our high priest and our king, Hebrews 4:14. If Christ is now a king of what is he king? He must then be king of a kingdom now! If he is king of a kingdom then the kingdom must exist now.
    Next, consider that Christ's kingdom could not be established at his second coming as taught by premillennialism.

    In 2 Samuel 7:12,13, it was said that the kingdom would be established while David slept with his Fathers. At the second coming of Christ, David nor anyone else will sleep, but all will be resurrected, John 5:28. Peter pointed out on the day of Pentecost, when the kingdom was established, that David was dead and buried and that his sepulchre was still there Acts 2:29.

    The fact that Christ is now at the right hand of God reigning as priest and king on David's throne proves the doctrine of premillennialism to be false. :eek:
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    There is only one problem with the pre-mill view, and that is your problem, because you can't understand it. It is God who designed it, and He also showed us the model of it. He created the earth in six days, then rested on the seventh. What do you think it means "to enter into his rest"?? Isn't He talking about the Sabbath?? What was the Sabbath for?? Why were we told to keep it Holy??

    You think Davids throne is in heaven?? Isn't that blasphemy?? You think David went up there and took over?? Who is he going to rule over?? God?? or Christ, or His angels?? What kind of drugs are you on??
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Christ sits on the Throne of David today.

    Acts 2:30-36
    " Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his (Davids) loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his(David's) throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    (Notice the past tense,,,God Promised David He would raise up Christ to Sit on Davids throne, and in vs 32 we see God fulfilled that promise in the resurrection and ascention)

    Continuing....
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made (past tense again) that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Christ is in Heaven, Ruling from the throne of David.

    If this is still future to us, then you must be asserting that David himself is not yet in Heaven with Christ yes? (vs 34)
    If David is not yet in Heaven, where is he, and If he is in Heaven, when did he go?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  5. Showing your ignorance of the Bible again I see :(
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    You have missed the whole point again. I'm not surprised because you do it every time. David's throne was on earth. This is more proof that Christ will rule on the earth. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    Why would Christ want to sit on David's throne in heaven?? Do you think it is superior to His own?? Preterists are out of gas, and your tank doesn't even hold water. See ya
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I'm sorry parousia,
    It does not say that David's throne is in heaven. Look again, you won't find it anywhere. G'day
     
  8. GW

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    How do you just ignore Acts 2:30-36 which clearly says Christ has been seated on David's Throne and is now the immortal God-King? How do you ignore Revelation 1:5 which says Christ is now the PRINCE OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH? How do you ignore that Jesus is now the "Immortal King" and King of Kings as shown in 1 Timothy 1 and 6? How do you just forget that Christ fulfilled Zechariah 9:9 when he entered Jerusalem on a donkey, taking the rulership of the Nation unto himself??? Finally, how do you understand Matthew 28:18 that says ALL AUTHORITY over Heaven and Earth is now under Christ Jesus?

    I want answers, not more insults from you. And where's an apology for calling us preterists liars about Hal Lindsey???

    You were wrong. I trust the Holy Ghost in you is convicting you for your harsh false witness against your brothers who were vindicated by the truth about Hal Lindsey. If you have the Spirit of Truth abiding in you then I expect to read a retraction of your false witness and insults.

    God bless you,
    GW
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

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    TO rollinTHUNDER

    (Here's Hal Lindsey backpedalling from his error about 1981/1988)
     
    "I also said that 'if' a generation was forty years and 'if' the generation of the 'fig tree' (Matthew 24:32-34) started with the foundation of the state of Israel, then Jesus 'might come back by 1988.' But I put a lot of ifs and maybes in because I knew that no one could be absolutely certain." -- Hal Lindsey

    For more research about Hal Lindsey's revisionism, read here:

    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/
    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/1.html
    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/3.html
    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/4.html
    http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/7.html
     
  10. Again I ask you. If the preterist view is out of gas how come people are leaving the futurist view by the droves, and becomeing a preterist. I have searched and searched for an "ex preterist" and can't find a single one.

    Most preterists I know are "ex futurists" however. Surley if preterism is out gas there ought to be at least one "ex preterist" you can point to right? So who is he thunder?
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    To Mani,
    Actually, I have never heard of preterists until just recently, on this forum. The 4 or 5 of you here, are the only ones I've ever heard of. The above post was for parousia. I would appreciate his reply, because yours and my view differ. See ya
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Brother thunder,

    Christ sits on the Throne of David today.

    Acts 2:30-36
    " Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him (David), that of the fruit of his (Davids) loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his(David's) throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    The Above scripture says God promised David He would "raise up" Christ to sit on Davids throne, and the above scripture further points out that promise spoke of Christs resurrection where God did in fact "raise up" Christ just as promised.

    If as you claim Christ does not sit on Davids Throne today, what throne did God "raise up" Christ to sit on if it is not the throne God promised David He would raise up Christ to sit on?

    Or maybe you are saying Christ is NOT on any throne today...is that it??
    Christ does not rule from a throne today?
    Is that your contention?
    If He does indeed rule from a throne today, what throne other than Davids did God promise to "raise up" Christ to rule from?

    Lemme know K?
    Don't forget to include Chapter & Verse!

    Peace,
    P70
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I take that verse to mean : That God promised David, that through his seed would come Christ the Messiah, who would one day Rule and reign where Davids throne was, in Jerusalem, which is on the earth. Jesus is now sitting at the Fathers right hand. Davids throne got destroyed. But Christ will rule in the midst of His enemies (Psalm 110:2).

    Psalm 110:1 - "The Lord (Father) says to my Lord (Christ): "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a (FOOTSTOOL) for your feet."

    Acts 7: 49 - "Heaven is my throne, and the (EARTH is my FOOTSTOOL)........"

    Messiah was cut off, but don't count Him out. He will rule and reign in Jerusalem for 1000 years, AMEN !!
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Acts 2:30-36
    " Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his [Davids] loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his [David's] throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses..."Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ

    Peter is stating a COMPLETED prophecy has occurred. "He seeing this before SPOKE OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST...THIS JESUS HATH GOD RAISED UP."

    Peter sees Christ's resurrection by the Father as one that gave Jesus the eternal and immortal throne of his father David. Jesus took that throne unto himself in Matthew 21:1-17, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9. His death and resurrection made his reign IMMORTAL AND ETERNAL over all of heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19).
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well Thunder, The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways!
    It's no accident that God is asking you today to test preterism against what you've been taught, and we preterists are simply asking you to test what you've been taught against what the Bible actually says.


    Praise God for guiding you to this forum!
    Keep asking questions, keep testing, keep searching!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

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    Well parousia,
    It seems that we can never agree on anything. You are now assuming that David is Christ's Father. That is not so. Although God sent Christ through Davids seed, he was not his father. Christ has only one Father. Don't you remember when Jesus said,
    "Before Abraham was, I Am."
    How can David be the Father of the creator??
    Jesus was there before the foundations of the world. Read John Chapter 1.
    I don't see any point in us continuing. There is nothing to gain, only dead ends. You have plenty of preterist friends here that will agree with you. There are too many heated arguments brewing, and nothing good comes from that. I guess I'll see ya when I see ya. G'Day
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK Thunder, I'll gladly prove you wrong on that one....

    "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior"

    Surley we can agree on that, yes?

    There, now that that's out of the way, you claimed I believe David is Christs father?

    When did I say any such thing?

    Christ is descended from Davidic liniage, and in that sense David was His "forfather" geneologicly, and by your post I assume you agree, but nowhere, nohow, no way have I ever claimed anything but God the father as Christs Heavenly father.

    You are mistaken in that assertion. I never said any such thing.

    Peace,
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  18. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    hello parousia,
    I stand corrected. It was not you who made that claim. It was GW in Post #274 above. My apologies, but I'll let you straighten him out on that. We don't see eye to eye if you know what I mean?? I guess that sort of thing happens when someone butts his way in. But even he wasn't the worst one in your croud. Manifestation wins the bad attitude award hands down. See ya around parousia
     
  19. GW

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    Blessings, rollinThunder.

    Straighten who out? Read on...

    Luke 1:32
    He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David

    (see also Matthew 21:9's "Hosanna to the Son of David")



    In jewish reckoning, the Christ's father is David. Christ became the final (and eternal) king in the DAVIDIC Monarchy/Kingdom (Mark 11:10; Matt 21:4-9; Acts 2:30-36).
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder:
    It appears that GW is the one who has "straightened" me and you out on this.
    Thanks GW!

    I now wish to ammend my earlier statement:
    David is Christ's Father persuant to Luke 1:32 & Matt 21:9.
    Scripture can't be wrong about this (or anythigng for that matter)

    YBIC,
    P70
     
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