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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

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    First, Jesus will not rule and reign in an earthly kingdom sense. Jesus reigns right now over all of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18) and his reign is perpetual throughout all generations forever (Rev 1:5; Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 28:18; 1 Peter 3:22; 1 Tim 1:17).

    Next, we are NOT in the final hour. Rather, St. John was in the final hour 2000 years ago when the endtimes antichrists heresy appeared (1 Jn 2:18-19). Now, when you say "final hour" do you mean 2000 or more years from now? Should I suppose that you mean Christ will return after the year 4000?

    Finally, evangelism is successful NOT because it is the final hour -- RATHER, evangelism is successful because Christ's Church and the gospel of the Kingdom is all-powerful and destined to succeed as it has even up to our times (Matt 16:18-19).


    Praise the Lord.

    Okay. Here's where your understanding is not taking into account the revelation given through Jesus and the apostles. The capital of the Faith will NEVER AGAIN be earthly Jerusalem. It will forever be in "Heavenly Jerusalem" in Spirit and Truth:

    John 4:20-23
    Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour comes when neither in this mountain, NOR IN JERUSALEM, will you worship the Father ... But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers.

    Galatians 4:25-26
    Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for she is in bondage with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.


    John, the earthly Jerusalem of the jews of the flesh is NOT ever again going to be a headquarters of the True Faith. Furthermore, if you believe that it is and that people are going to go up to their city of Jerusalem then you must also believe that Christ's work is in vain and we will return to the bondage of the Mosaic Law, including mandatory circumcision, blood sacrifices, and feasts. For Zechariah 14 says:


    Zechariah 14:16-19
    It shall happen, that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of Hosts, and to keep the feast of tents. It shall be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of Hosts, on them there shall be no rain. If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, and doesn't come, neither shall it be on them; there shall be the plague with which Yahweh will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents.


    and Ezekiel says:

    Ezekiel 44:7,9
    In that ye have brought [into my sanctuary] strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, [even] my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that [is] among the children of Israel.


    BUT PAUL REVEALS:
    Galatians 5:1-4
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you

    Colossians 2:14,16-17
    The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross ... Therefore suffer no one to sit in judgement on you as to eating or drinking or with regard to a festival, a new moon or a sabbath. These were a shadow of things that were soon to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


    So we are not going into the future that you have depicted. Rather, we are already in the New Jerusalem as Paul states in both Hebrews 12:22-24 and Galatians 4:26 and we are converting Nations to come inside to join us in Covenant with our King and ruler over heaven and earth (Revelation 21:24-27).

    GW
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    No, I would have to disagree with that view of the day/1000 years. You can't reverse them. God's ways are higher than our ways. We are small in comparison, while He is larger than life. A thousand years for man, is only a day for God. If we reverse that, then we would be placing ourselves ahead of God, (not a good idea).

    Rev.20: 6 - "Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign (with Him) a thousand years."

    Notice that the verse I quoted says that we will reign with Him, (not for Him or in place of Him). David can not rule in Christs place, or any man for that matter. You are also displaying that "Doubting Thomas Faith". I don't know about you, but my God is AWESOME. You are displaying a form of Godliness, but denying it's power. Look at these next verses.

    Rev.19: 14-16 - "The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (16) On His robe and on His thigh He has this name written : KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Nothing but AWESOME brother. When did anyone ever see those names written on His robe and thigh??? The saints must exercize patients and endurance. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>So we are not going into the future that you have depicted. Rather, we are already in the New Jerusalem

    Ok, that is fine, what is your understanding of the last passage in the book of Isaiah, sense that is what I was making a referance to. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Rollin Thunder:

    You do realize that Peter himself is the one who makes the day and the thousand "reversable," don't you?

    "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8)

    It would be just as correct to say 1000 of God's years are as one single 24 hour period to us!

    BTW, since you have a formula created out of your day=millennium theory, will Jesus lie in the grave for 3000 years according to the following verse?

    Mark 8:31
    And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and AFTER THREE DAYS rise again
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello GW,
    Because all of you take everything out of context, it is time to take you to school. I really don't like to combat your 3 man tag team. Lets go back to where Peter got that verse. Yes, Peter turned it around, but you have reversed it's meaning, and therefore ruined the whole thing. To answer your question, Jesus (God) was in the ground only 2 days, but any (man) who died in the 1st century must wait 2000 years before his resurrection, and they are still waiting. Now to the original verse.

    Psalm 90: 4 - "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

    Now lets see you twist that one.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hi John.

    I'm very glad to see that you don't teach we are going back to the implementation of the Mosaic Law in the future. Placing passages like Isa 66, Zechariah 14, and Ezekiel 40-48 into our future and reading them without the light of Jesus and the apostles would entirely undo the finished work of Christ. (Gasp!) Such a literal reading of those passages as if they are in our future is a common dispensationalist error. That would cause a retroactive move in redemption, going backwards even to before Christ's work of salvation.

    Now, the O.T. prophets used such depictions of a National Israel in a poetic future bliss (such as Isa 65:17-66:24) whenever they faced their exiles and when they were out of their land and in full breach of the Mosaic Covenant. In the language of the prophets "New Heavens/Earth" therefore speaks of any full restoration to God's covenant plan. For example, when Jehovah brought Israel out of Egypt and brought them into the promised land it was said that "JEHOVAH PLANTED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH... (ISA 51:15-16)."

    For the writers of the New Testament books, The New Jerusalem is something Christ ushered in for humanity and is defined as follows:

    "you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel" (Heb 12:22-24).


    So we are already in the New Jerusalem, which is the sum total of our New Covenant fullness and blessing and corresponds to Christ and the Church in heaven and on earth. The rest of that passage (Heb 12:22-28) shows that the shaking and removal of the Heavens and Earth means the removal of the Old Covenant, and the New Heavens and Earth that remains is the New Covenant (Heb 12:25-28).

    APPLICATION:
    So when you talked about converting that nation you are truly talking about Revelation 21:24-27 where the New Jerusalem is with us for the Church and we are bringing in nations of them that get saved. They bring their glory and honor into our Heavenly city just as the Queen of Sheba did in the O.T. with Solomon's Temple. The Queen of Sheba was a foreshadowing of just such a conversion of nations into the New Jerusalem of Christ and the Church.
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Also, since Jesus rose on the third day, so will the body of Christ (Church) be raised in the 3rd day (1000 year reign). But since our calendars are so messed up, no one is really even sure what year we are in, except God of course.
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

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    I have not ruined it. I have simply taken Peter's words as is. Peter does the reversal so that it works both ways. God's 1000 years are as one of our days.


    You are not at all being literal with the text. Jesus said HE would be in the grave for 3 days, which means 3000 years in your formula and Jesus is not yet risen.


    Do you know how long a "watch" is? It is a jewish measure of time of THREE TO SIX HOURS. That really messes up your "day=millennium" formula.
     
  9. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>So we are already in the New Jerusalem

    Yes, I understand that WE are the New Jerusalem. But really the New Jerusalem is on the inside of us. There is a time when the New Jerusalam will come down from Heaven, when we will be in the New Jerusalem.

    From the perspective of the Hebrew children, are they not still looking forward to the New Jerusalam? That is to say that his prophecy in Isaiah has not been fulfilled for them. Or are you saying that it has been fulfilled for the Jewish people? Thanks, JohnR7
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Let me explain it in simple terms, since the verse has completely confused you.

    :With the Lord a day is like (mans) thousand years, and (mans) thousand years are like a day (God).

    What you have done is changed it's meaning. If you still don't get it, let me ask you this : What man have you ever known, or heard of, that lived a thousand years or more?????????

    Jesus rose on the 3rd day. Early that morning when Mary got to the tomb, Jesus was already risen. So, He was there two days, and rose on the third.
     
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Revelation 21:2 and 21:9-10 show that the "New Jerusalem" is a description of the New Covenant Church (the bride, the Lamb's wife) as also Paul taught in Hebrews 12:22-24.

    The New Jerusalem is not merely inside us, but is manifest via the Church-Nation of Israel -- the manifest sons of God. Peter tells us that we are the Holy Nation (1 Peter 2:9), which is what Jesus also taught would happen as a result of the rejection of Him (Matt 21:38-43). The True Israel was the believing jews of the 1st century that taught that circumcision of the flesh no longer mattered to God and had no covenantal significance (Gal 6:15-16). The other "Israel" that continued to hold onto the Law is now become "Hagar and Ishmael," slaves who are not heirs and partakers in the inheritance (see Gal 4:24-30). Israel after the flesh is who Paul was talking about when he said: "For they are not all Israel who are OF Israel; nor are they children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Romans 9:6-7). So after AD 70 the only Israel is Christ's Israel.

    Isaiah's vision, while containing much figurative language, was for the hope of the jews that they might reach the height of the blessings promised under the Mosaic Covenant after losing hope through disobedience and exile. Unfortunately, because the jews were never able to keep the Old Covenant laws, many hopes were unfulfilled under Moses' reign. It wasn't until the NEW Covenant that Israel obtained full restoration to God (Heb 8:7-8).

    True Israel is not today's Israel after the flesh (political country of Israel), but is the 1st century remnant who followed after Jesus and his New Covenant which he established with the house of Israel and Judah according to Hebrews 8:6-13. So the True Nation of Israel was re-born in Christ and the 1st century Jews who followed Him -- they were united under one shepherd and Jesus took to himself the Davidic Throne over the Nation (Acts 2:30-36).
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Your spin on the verse makes Peter say the same thing twice. The plain grammatical reading of the text shows that Peter is saying time is "reversable" to God because he is TRANSCENDENT of it. A thousand years can be a day or even 3 to 6 hours (a watch of the night). It's all the same to God. But to us time is significant, and thus the bible speaks using normal human time statements.

    Peter did not at all believe the end was 20 or more centuries off into his future. He writes: "The end of all things IS AT HAND!" (1 Peter 4:7).
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

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    The verse has nothing to do with a watch, but this is how you avoid the truths that are so plainly laid down. You failed to tell which man lived a thousand years. Peter turned it around so they could understand it, but that does not mean that God's ways are the same as mans ways. You receive the scriptures the same way as the lost man does, with no understanding. Seeing but unable to understand. You want to run with the big dogs but you can't get off the porch. You believe that the shadow that God laid down, is the same as the things to come. Look at this scripture, and if it doesn't help your understanding, then I guess I will have to let you keep spinning your wheels. Have you ever noticed how God has always given us glimpses of our future, by making history repeat itself?? But, the end, or future of the things are on a much larger scale?? You take the shadow, instead of the main event. Look at these scriptures.

    Heb.10: 1 - "The law is only the shadow of the good things that are coming--- not the realities themselves......"

    Ecclesiastes 3: 15 - "Whatever has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account."

    Isaiah 46: 10 - "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come. I say : My purpose will stand and I will do all that I please."

    GW - don't cast your pearls before swine. Don't you realize that Christ is coming back for those who are watching and waiting for Him?? Can't you see that if you are wrong, that you could be one of the ones who gets left behind?? If you really must believe this nonsense, I guess that is your choice, but it appears to me that you all have already been deceived, you, Mami, and parousia. I wish you well though, cheers !!
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I must admit Thunder, if nothing else, you impress me with your persistance, however, I believe it is you that are confused, and are "limiting" the power of our awesome God.

    Your stance on the 1000 years/Day stuff puts a limitation on God that simply does not exist.

    You are in fact saying that God is incapable of making one earth day seem like 1000 years to Him even if He wanted to!!

    I sure can't make 1 day seem like 1000 years to me, so I am clearly not puting my ways above His as you claim.
     
  15. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I may have one more angle. Try this one. It's too simple.

    A thousand years is bigger than man, but to God it is almost nothing. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to reverse that, not in your flesh.
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    It sure does. Psalm 90:4 reads:

    For a thousand years, in thy sight, are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night

    Brother, a watch in the night is 3-6 hours long. How can you factor in 3-6 hours=1000 years and make it fit your endtimes calendar?


    Failed to tell which man lived a thousand years? What??? What are you talking about. Nevermind. I'm saying that Peter makes the statment reversable, suggesting that man's time means nothing to the transcendent God. A thousand of God's years are like one of our days and vice versa.


    Biblically speaking, it is the righteous ones that get "left behind" and it is the wicked that get "taken." Read closely and you'll see that it is so.

    Blessings to you!
     
  17. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Psycho-Babel - Boy o Boy and mam o man are you guys ever lost.

    See ya
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Brother, are you so sure it is we that are so lost? St. Peter declared the end of all things was at hand and the time of the judgment had begun! And notice how St. John and Jesus back him up 100 percent:

    1 Peter 4:7
    THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND!

    1 Peter 4:17
    because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God? (Young's Literal Translation)

    1 John 2:18
    Children, IT IS THE LAST HOUR; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; FROM THIS WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST HOUR!

    Revelation 1:1,3
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    Matthew 24:34
    "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    We have a unanimous witness of Christ and the apostles that Christ's return had to be in their generation. He either did as he said or else they were false prophets. There is no middle ground.
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day rollinTHUNDER,

    In your scheme of things:

    Could the millennium be 1000 days?
    Did creation take God 6000 years, needing another thousand to catch up on some rest? etc etc.

    davo
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello davo,
    No, by the wonderful design of our creator. A millenium is 1000 years in mans time, but it is only one day to the Lord. The Lord lives in Eternity and has no limits, but man lives in time, which has it's limits, and so does man. At the resurrection of the living, or the first resurrection, all who accepted God's Son will become Sons of God. They will at that time no longer be bound by time, or even their flesh. They will live in eternity forever in their new immortal, incorruptible bodies.
     
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