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The NATURE of the resurrection, second coming, Heavens & Earth passing, etc.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    This thread is given as an opportunity to discuss your views of the NATURE of things or events such as Jesus' resurrected Body, the ascention, the second coming, Heavens and earth passing/ New Heavens and earth coming, New Jerusalem etc..

    For example,
    Scripture gives several acounts of the fact that Jesus' resurrected Body could appear and disappear.

    A question I'd like to pose to kick things off is this:
    When Jesus would become invisible prior to the ascention, did Jesus' resurrected Body remain present on earth or did He merely, at that moment, become visible someplace besides earth?

    Based on the scriptural accounts alone, prior to the ascention, did Jesus' body have to be "visible" on earth to be "present" on earth?

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts and input.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
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  2. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I don't believe the bible gives us enough information to say for sure one way or another. Scripture indicates that on at least one occasion Jesus traveled from earth to heaven and then back again. Immediately after the resurrection he asked Martha not to touch him for he had not yet ascended to his father. Yet later on people were permitted to touch him, indicating that he had ascended.

    Scripture also indicates that Jesus was aware of things that happened while his body wasn't visible upon the earth. John 20:24-27 (doubting thomas). Again, this verse doesn't prove anything because Jesus knew the thoughts and hearts of the disciples and he could have obtained this knowledge of Thomas' statments any number of ways, whether he was an 'invisible presence' or whether viewed from on high, or simply reading the thoughts of Thomas.
     
  3. 2002 Christian

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    Chew on this, as you continue the discussion:

    Luke 20
    20.34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    20.35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    20.36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    20.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    20.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Willis, Thank for responding to this thread. I hope is spurs folks to think.

    To address your point,
    First, He didn't allow to be touched. The Greek word translated 'touch' in the KJV is 'haptomai (hap’-tom-ahee)' and it means, 'to fasten one’s self to, adhere to, cling to.' Other translations have this translated correctly.

    Second, Jesus told Mary why: 'Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God' " ' (John 20.17, emphasis added). Apparently she didn't want to let him go. But Jesus had other things to do and so did she.
    So, I don't see this as implication that Jesus ascended to the father prior to the "ascention".

    I am sure that this next point will get some attention. Let me state 'for the record' that I do not believe that Jesus was resurrected in a 'glorified' body. I believe that his body was the same as the one crucified. It had no 'supernatural' powers different than before his death. Everything was the same.(except that it could never again die)

    I'll will wait patiently for comment.


    YBIC,
    P70
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I am glad to see you made it back safely. I have been doing a little studying, and I want to bring up something here that will fit in pretty good with this thread. BUT - I am not going to allow myself any of those long debates. I just want to mainly pull up what I believe will prove to be very interesting to all on this thread. My Dad pasted away Saturday, and I am very saddened by this. So I will be very busy the next couple of days out of town. I hope you enjoy your debates, and please try to get along better this time, ha ha !!

    Although you are probably not yet ready for these scriptures, they are bound to surface and resurface. I believe that I have discovered a major difference between two scriptures that are often viewed to have the same meaning, or mean the same thing, but in my view they are two separate things. Lets go right now !!

    NIV - Acts 1: 6-11 - "So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?" (7)He said to them; "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (9)After He said this, He was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. (10)They were looking intently up into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. (11)"Men of Galilee", they said, "Why do you stand here looking into the sky?" This same Jesus who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."

    Now carefully, look at this verse.
    Matthew 24: 14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

    Notice the difference here.
    Acts says (to the ends of the earth) meaning land.
    Matt. says (in the whole world) means generations of this age.
    Notice also that they were expecting Israel to be restored to its former glory, and Jesus did not deny it, but said that, that time was not for them to know.

    And notice also, that Jesus would come back just as they saw Him going up. He was visable, and his Glorious return is also promised to be visable.

    Notice also that, it will be a testimony to all the nations, in the whole world (age), not just the nations of that day. But ALL nations. There have been many nations born since that time that weren't even known to the disciples way back then, (example - U.S.A./Mexico....)

    I will be back soon, See ya !!
     
  6. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Dig a little deeper p70. I've read that same touching explanation by scholars and it misses the whole point, and seems rather silly when you think about it. Did Jesus really think that Martha was going to 'cling to him' for more than FORTY DAYS and prevent him from ascending to the father? Was it so urgent to have Martha report the ascension to the desciples since it was more than a month away? Could Jesus not take a few minutes to hug a person whom he loved and who loved him? There is a deeper meaning, a reason for Jesus to ascend into heaven and a reason he couldn't be touched prior to the ascension.

    Think on this: Jesus is 'high priest', during time of sacrifice priests had to go through ritual cleansing. To be touched would have defiled them so that they could not perform their duties in relation to the sacrifice. The temple on earth was a model of the temple in heaven. Acting as High Priest Jesus would have had to complete his duties as priest in the Ultimate Sacrifice for sin, carrying the blood of the sacrifice into the heavenly temple.


    Your 'other bible' does not translate the verse correctly. Compare several translations and look up the greek. Properly understood the verse reads 'Do Not Touch Me'. Which in this context is a HUGE difference than 'Stop Clinging To Me'. In the first version it commands to not do something, in the second it commands to cease doing something. The original greek supports the first, but not the last.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder, Thanks for the kind welcome and your input on this thread. I appriciate your continued willingness to engage me as your brother in Christ.

    First let me say my prayers are with you in your loss of your father. I hope his passing was peaceful for him and I hope you and your family find the strength in Christ to cope with the loss.

    On to your post:
    In Acts, the word translated to "earth" is "ge" and you correctly cite the meaning as "Land".
    However, the word translated as "world" in Matt 24:14 is "Oikoumene" which means "inhabited earth" and has no time indicators at all. It does not mean "age, period of time or genrations of man" but is exclusively and entirely geographic in scope.

    Now, lets look at a couple other relevant scriptures that you might not be ready for yourself!

    Romans 1:8
    First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Colossians 1:5-6 (NKJV) because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Now, "world" in the above instances is translated from the greek "Kosmos" which goes even farther in scope than "Oikoumene". "Kosmos" means "the world, or even the entire universe", and the above verses assert that the Gospel had, at that time, gone out to the entire kosmos.

    These next verses further cement the truth that the Gospel had in fact gone out to "all the nations" and had in fact already been preached to "every creature under heaven" by the mid - late 60's AD. to deny that fact is to deny the apostles, and even Gods authority on the matter.

    Colossians 1:23 (NKJV) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Romans 16:25-26 (NKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

    I'll pause for comment here, and address your other points in a future post.

    And Thunder, May the peace of Christ comfort you in this saddening time.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

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    Thanks for your kind words parousia,
    When I posted this, I didn't expect that you would agree, since we both interpret the scriptures differently. I was pulling it up for others to view as well. But now that you almost get what I'm saying, add the rest of the missing parts.

    You agree that : ends of the earth = lands
    You agree that : >>>>>>>>>>> world = inhabited earth/people
    Now all you are lacking is (WHOLE world AND - ALL nations), it is referring to the whole church age. The way you understand it, the whole world was finished in the first century. But in actuality, the world did not end then, and neither did the preaching of the gospel, and neither did the church age end. I also agree with brother Willis that the NKJV is very poorly translated. I picked it up at work once, and it didn't even take me 5 minutes to put it back down. Luckily we have many translations to choose from where I work. But, even when you use your KJV, we still differ in our interpretations, so maybe it's a lost cause.
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    The word world has more than one meaning, the one I was referring to earlier, was clearly defined, and then added ALL nations. Look at the NIV of what you quoted.

    (NIV) Colossians 1: 5-6 - "the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood Gods grace in all it's truth."

    Your bible makes it sound like it is finished, but mine says it (is bearing fruit and growing), as in not finished. And still to this very day, the truth of the gospel is still being preached.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Willis, Deeper I have dug!

    First, the Greek states this:

    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch (680) me (3450) not (3361); for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
    17 legei auth o ihsouv mh (3361) mou (3450) aptou (680) oupw gar anabebhka prov ton patera mou poreuou de prov touv adelfouv mou kai eipe autoiv anabainw prov ton patera mou kai patera umwn kai yeon mou kai yeon umwn

    Strongs states that the word means:

    680; 1) to fasten one’s self to, adhere to, cling to
    1a) to touch
    1b) of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
    1c) of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.

    reflexive of 681; properly, to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):—touch.

    681; 1) to fasten to, adhere to 1a) to fasten fire to a thing, kindle, set of fire

    The primary meaning is to cling to something. The example is setting something on fire. Fire doesn't just 'touch' something, but rather consumes it. However, I can see your interpretation based on 1c above. But, the onus is not on me but you. You have to prove that Jesus ascended before the ascension! Something that the Bible neither states nor implies. I will stick with my answer.

    Lastly, no one is claiming that Mary would not ever let Jesus go. Or that He couldn't hug her.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I'm sorry thunder, but this you'll have to back up with scripture. Where does the Bible tell you to interprate whole world and all nations as "Church Age"?

    I think I'm finally seeing where you misunderstand me entirely. Your assesment of me above is incorrect. Please allow me to clarify for you what I really believe.

    Clearly , since we are typing to eachother today, I do NOT believe the whole world ended in the first century. I believe the AGE of "operational Biblical Judiasm" ended then. As I have stated before, The Bible teaches that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

    And since I myself preach the gospel today, I do not believe it's preaching ended in the first century, nor do I believe the "church age" as you call it, ended then or will ever end.

    Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

    Since Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," we necessarily must infer that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

    Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

    Since the Gospel, which is for sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," this necessarily implies that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

    The Eternal new covenant age we live in today and the Gospel of Christ are "everlasting"

    Whatever Jesus meant when he exhorted his disciples with "the great comission" of Matt 24, we can be confident in Pauls inspired, infallible declaration that it indeed was acomplished by the late 60's AD.


    Thats why I feel going to the greek is soooooo important. It dosen't take a rocket surgeon to obtain a mild grasp of the greek language, and a mild grasp is all you really need to understand much of the nuances that are lacking in ANY english translation. I picked up the NIV once, and it only took me 3 minutes to put it down! My Bible study group has coined it the "Nearly Inspired Version" (tongue in cheek of course) I like the NAS, NKJV, KJV but my favorite for settling disputes (besides going tot he greek itself) is the YLT, an excellent word for word rendering of the Greek. Check it out if you have the chance!

    YBIC,
    P70
    PS: I'll get to your comments on Acts 1:11 soon, (and not 2000 years "soon" as you interprate the term!!LOL!) :D
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK, Lets compare:

    (NIV) Colossians 1: 5-6 - "the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood Gods grace in all it's truth."

    (KJV)
    Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit , as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    Greek:
    Ho pareimi eis humas kai kathos ejn pas kosmos kai esti karpophoreo

    (which is present to you, as also in all the world, and is bearing fruit,)

    Now Thunder, was the Gospel present in all the world at the time Paul claimed it was, or not?

    Of course it continues to bring fruit even today, that is not in question. But the above verse, combined with the others that state "every creature under heaven, all the nations, and all the world" had in fact heard the gospel by the Mid - late 60's AD, Confirm for me that the Great comission Jesus gave to His apostles was in fact fulfilled by them just as Jesus said it would be, and just as Paul infallibly claimed it had been, thus enabling the end of the "age" of "operational Biblical Judiasm" to come, as promised, on time, before the apostles had finished going over the cities of Israel, before some of them had tasted death, within a Biblical "generation". (Matt 10:23, Matt 16:28, Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32)

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I didn't expect to still be here, because of the red tape that my Mom ran into, I am still waiting on her call. So while I am still here, I will chat with ya.

    I see another long post, or sorta long. I won't mess around with trying to quote from it. sorry I got what you believe wrong. I was guessing of course, because you have never fully explained your view or where it comes from. As promised, I won't get into a long debate about this stuff. When my Mom calls, I'm gone.

    So now I would say that it appears from your last post, that you don't believe that Jesus will return a second time and rule for a thousand years. Do I have that right??
    It seems like you believe that He will rule and reign in us and through us like we are now, but forever. So this would mean that it is as good as you expect to see it, until you die, or finish this earthly life, right or wrong??
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Where does it say that their work was fulfilled, that means finished?? It clearly says that it was still bearing fruit, but nowhere does it say that the great commission was already finished.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Romans 16:25-26 ,Colossians 1:23 for starters.
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    But they were told that "some of them would NOT taste death, before they saw the Kingdom come. That is because they would never see death at all, only Judas would. He is the only one of the 12 disciples that would ever taste death, because Jesus said that one of them was a devil. The rest of them passed from life to eternal life.
     
  17. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Col. 1: 23 - Paul clearly states that he is still a servant to it, so how can it be finished if he is still serving??

    Romans 16: 25 - talks about (Christ), which was a mystery in the old testament, just as the rapture is a mystery in the new testament.

    Romans 16: 26 - talks about how the mystery (Christ) was revealed and made known to man.

    There is nothing about finishing the great commission my friend. We are still in the very same age and doing the same work that Christ and his disciples started. We are still living by faith. Our hope is still in heaven, and we still have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, giving us the power to overcome this evil world. Lunch break.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Boy are you getting close! Thank you for at least taking the time to try to understand my position. I appriciate it more than you can know!

    First, I do not deny the fact of the 2nd coming. To deny that is to deny Gods word, however, I also believe that to deny the timing of the 2nd coming is just as abominable as denying the fact of it.

    Now the 1000 years:
    can we use 2 Peter 3:8 here? 1000 (earth) years is as a day to God and one (earth) day is as 1000 years.

    therefore, the millennial reign could only last one earth day and still satisfy 1000 years of Gods time.

    Let me be clear that I do not adhere to the above interpratation, but anoyne who uses 2 Peter 3:8 as a mathmatic formula for interprating prophetic time, must accept the above as true.

    As for my belief about the 1000 years, I do not necessarily believe it to be a literal 1000 earth years for several reasons:

    1) The Bible constantly uses 1000 as a term to describe "many" or even "all" For example, The Bible says God owns the cattle on a "thousand" hills.
    Do you believe that means that the cow on the 1001st hill is NOT owned by God?....I didn't think so.

    2) Paul says that the "day of the Lord" is the 2nd coming. Peter says that at the "day of the lord" the Heavens and earth pass away.

    Where'd the 1000 years go?

    I believe the millennial reign was fulfilled during the 40 years between the ascention and the destruction of Jerusalem, but was representative of the completion of the Davidic Monarchy, with Christ as the Final King in the line, which Lasted from David to Christ, interestingly enough, a timespan of 1000 years!

    I have no doubt this raises more questions for you than it answers!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, are you saying we are to stop serving the Gospel After Jesus returns?

    :confused:
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I never put it in those words, or in any words, but this age to will come to a close (fulfillment). Right now, in this current church age, you must live by faith. Faith is believing in something unseen. When someone exercises this faith, he is at that point sealed by the Holy Spirit (indwelt), and the Holy Spirit is our comforter and our strength to overcome this evil world. Our spirits are then re-born, and we have become sons and daughters of God. But our hope is in heaven (in Christ). We will still go through trials and tribulations in this world, and that even includes being martyred, but we don't see dying the same as the world sees it. To us, to die is gain, and to live is Christ. If I died right now, which is impossible, my work on this earth would be over. My spirit would go on to be with the Lord, but my body would have to wait until the ressurection, which is also the rapture. At the moment of the rapture, my old body will be exchanged for a new immortal body, like Jesus has. It will be redeamed for a new incorruptible body. Our works done in our earthly bodies will be judged, and everything that did not produce good fruit will be burnt up, but everything that did produce fruit, we will be rewarded for. We will cast our crowns at his feet. In heaven we will meet all the old saints, and we will know them, and be known ourselves by them. This will be a great family reunion, a great feast. Then we will be clothed in garments white as snow, and return with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will put us in charge of cities, but He will be in charge of everything in the world. We will still be under Christ and He will still be our head. This is the Kingdom that will last 1000 literal years, and satan will be bound the whole time. I already know this is not what you believe, but I went a little farther than I expected to.

    So now - we are living by faith in what is unseen, but this will change, and be fulfilled when Christ comes to claim what is rightfully His. The Devil is a thief. The next age will be the Day of the Lord, or the Lords Sabbath. 6000 years under mans government, 1000 under Christ, and then a new heaven and new earth will be made. We will then live in heaven for the rest of eternity. But the 1000 year reign will not require faith, because it will be seen (literal).
     
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