The nature of Jesus

[Doubting Brutus]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

 

[TzephanYahu]

Shalom,

Yes, many Christians can't get their story straight on this matter and even contradict themselves about it in one sentence to the next. Many of them are overly familiar with the New Testament only and poorly schooled in the Old Testament, which ia probably what leads to these problems.

That said, I'm no expert! But I will try to clear this up for you.

1. Jesus is fully

Yes and no. He is Elohim. Elohim is a plural version of the Hebrew word El - which basically means God.

In Genesis we read that in the beginning "Elohim" created the heavens and the earth. Not El, but Elohim - denoting two or more (the Trinity).

Now, Yahushua/Jesus is of God and as one with Him, but the Father is very distinct as well. So Yahweh was not missing from heaven when Yahushua came to earth. But Yahushua is absolute representation of His Father ans should be listened to and accepted as if He was Yahweh directly.

In Hebraic understanding, a father's son was the representation of him and his household. Of the kings of Israel, their sons (which we would call princes) would be seen, rule and have the same authority as the king himself. They were one, but two distinct entities.

Hopefully that makes sense!

Jesus has always existed.

Yes, but not in the guise of Yahushua, which was His new identification after the physical birth of flesh. He appears in the Old Testament as "the Word of the Lord", "the angel of the Lord", "the Servant" and a few other titles. Some believe His name prior was Yahu - but there is little evidence for this to say for sure.

Also consider the prophecy of the Messiah in Micah 5:2. It talks about how the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem but He is also preexisting this birth.

Jesus lived a perfect life.

Yes, He had to in order to be completely without blemish.

Now, could have he sinned before the baptism? It's a possibility but you would have to make some difficult assumptions and theories. I think it's very unlikely as He had an awareness of who He was at the age of 12 according to Scripture. You could argue it, but yoy would struggle to back it up sufficiently from Scripture.

But on a final note, don't follow mainstream Christians, don't read their books and don't read their popular opinions. Read the Word, with no preconcieved ideas or images, and you will find the truth in all things. There are many problems in the church today, as prophesied, so don't set your standard or knowledge by mainstream Christianity. Focus on the Word, build your opinion, and don't let any church or mainstream Christian teachings "interpret" it for you.

Ask Yahweh, the Most High God, to give you wisdom each day in the name of the Messiah, and He will give it to you.

Love & Shalom

 

[Aussie Pete]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

If the statements that you made are not true, then Lord Jesus is a liar. That is a big deal. I personally prefer truth to lies.

 

[Doubting Brutus]

If the statements that you made are not true, then Lord Jesus is a liar. That is a big deal. I personally prefer truth to lies.

Can you explain where Jesus affirms these things. I'm not saying he doesn't its just not clear to me that he does from reading the NT. Let me put it this way, when I read the words of Jesus I find it far more plausible that he talks about he and the father being one he is speaking in the same way I might speak about myself and my wife. 'We are one' being an indication of our love, our fidelity and our unique spiritual connection. Jesus may well have felt personally exalted by God, adopted as his son. This would be perfectly harmonisable with the text as far as I can see. The case for Jesus believing himself to be eternal and all powerful seems a bit more of a stretch. I'm not saying that I've got it right, merely that its not self evident without layering on centuries of church teaching.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Can you explain where Jesus affirms these things. I'm not saying he doesn't its just not clear to me that he does from reading the NT. Let me put it this way, when I read the words of Jesus I find it far more plausible that he talks about he and the father being one he is speaking in the same way I might speak about myself and my wife. We are one being an indication of our love, our fidelity and our unique spiritual connection. Jesus may well have felt personally exalted by God, adopted as his son. This would be perfectly harmonisable with the text as far as I can see. The case for Jesus believing himself to be eternal and all powerful seems a bit more of a stretch. I'm not saying that I've got it right, merely that its not self evident without layering on centuries of church teaching.

Thanks for asking. Christians need to justify their statements. My only source is the Bible.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:57-59 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him.
To explain this statement from Jesus, He was claiming to be "I Am". God said, "I Am" to Moses. You can read the account Exodus chapter 3. The Jews listening knew exactly what He was claiming. They wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.

John 8:46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?"

John 5:19 "Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.""

Matthew 8:27 "The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?""

John 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

The gospel of John is intentionally written to highlight who Jesus is, His power and might and His purpose for coming to earth. I've only given a tiny slice of a tiny slice of the life and work of the Lord Jesus. You might like to read the whole of John. It was written for enquiring people like you.

 

[Albion]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

How could an ordinary sinner atone for the sins of other people? Only a being who was without blame but paid the price, and only the one who was sinned against, could accomplish that.

In addition, it isn't just a question of "why not?" It is not as though it's an open question.

The Bible, which is God's revelation to mankind, makes clear that Christ was God himself who took on human form. The Jewish leaders of his own time accused him of claiming to be God on the basis of his own words and actions. He used the divine reference ("I AM") for himself. The evidence is there.

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.

Let's say that they don't. But you are still "stuck" with the facts as the Scriptures explain them.

Your point, therefore, is moot. If you believe in Jesus AT ALL, you have to take him as he is and for whom he is.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

If Jesus sinned under the law He could not have overcome the just punishment for His sin.

His resurrection and His overcoming was to the point He had power over death:

“For as by a man (Adam) came death, by a man (Jesus) has come also the resurrection of the dead” (v. 21). 1 Corinthians 15:20–57

which created the hope and reality for our own resurrection and salvation...

1 Corinthians 15:17
"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

If Christ sinned He could not have been raised in the first place. The curse came through Adam's sin, and it had to be erased/overcome by the opposite - Jesus's sinlessness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

Jesus could have been "adopted" by God, but then, if we go by the contents within the collection of the New Testament documents, there's not much therein to infer that an adoption metaphysic is the intended meaning of what the N.T. writers have written about Jesus.

 

[bling]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

It all goes back to man’s objective while on earth.

Jesus did not have to obtain Godly type Love, but already had it because he is eternal. If God had “created” Christ, then he also would have to obtain Godly type Love since God could not create a being instinctively having Godly type Love and if you have this Love unfettered you will not sin.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

 

[PloverWing]

I am not getting why this is essential.

One view of the atonement is that God entered into human existence, and, in doing so, transformed our existence, healing the damage that sin has done to us and enabling us to be in communion with God. (A good summary of this view is here: Sin Is Not A Legal Problem - Athanasius and the Atonement - Glory to God for All Things) In this view, the Incarnation is really essential.

 

[Tolworth John]

am not getting why this is essential.

Very possible because you don't want to.
Aussie Pete has given you a clear answer from scripture and you go silent.

 

[PloverWing]

Aussie Pete has given you a clear answer from scripture and you go silent.

Hey, go easy. Doubting Brutus has been "silent" for less than a day. Maybe he wanted to hear from more people. Maybe he wanted to think some more. Maybe he put down his computer and went to do something in real life. The nature of the Atonement and the Incarnation isn't a simple matter, to be settled in one or two quick Internet posts.

 

[Doubting Brutus]

Very possible because you don't want to.
Aussie Pete has given you a clear answer from scripture and you go silent.

There's no need for that. I'm thinking on what's been said.

 

[solid_core]

Time and again I hear Christians talking about the following essential doctrine...

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

I am not getting why this is essential.

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism? What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism? What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

I could certainly follow a Jesus that failed to meet any of the four points of this doctrine. I don't see why they in any way diminish the Christian experience or Christ's sacrifice.
If anything I would argue that this doctrine to some extent makes Christ feel more distant, less relatable, less noble. There's less of a sense of a life given to personal sacrifice and service. Its also a harder sell in terms of belief, at least for me. I think I can get my head around a Jesus that fails to conform to any of these point but if all of these points are non-negotiable then the journey to belief feels a lot more uncertain.

I realise that these points were argued over by the early church fathers and that the alternative beliefs were rejected and labelled heresy but I'm not interested in tradition. I'm interested in what is true (spiritually and historically).

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say because this is a big issue.

It is essential because its said explicitly on many places of the Bible and in writings of the first Christians so we can say with certainity its what apostles got from Jesus himself and taught in churches.

 

[Tolworth John]

T

There's no need for that. I'm thinking on what's been said.

Hen I apologise.

 

[redleghunter]

Important to note that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly human. We will see references in Holy Scriptures to Jesus being the son of man (truly human) and Son of God (truly God).



Verses below deal with the Deity of Jesus Christ. Both His words and also the words of His Apostles:

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

Notice here the language used in Isaiah (Old Testament before the Incarnation of Jesus)

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Now notice this in the New Testament after the birth, crucifixion, Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

We only worship God:

Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

There’s more but Thomas needed a bit more proof of Jesus Christ Risen from the dead. His proclamation tells it all:

John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

 

[redleghunter]

1. Jesus is fully god.
2. Jesus has always existed.
3. Jesus (as part of the trinity) created the universe.
4. Jesus lived a perfect life.

This is the essential doctrine:

1. Jesus has two natures — He is God and man.
2. Each nature is full and complete — He is fully God and fully man.
3. Each nature remains distinct.
4. Christ is only one Person.
5. Things that are true of only one nature are nonetheless true of the Person of Christ.

As you identify as a seeker I believe the below well written piece will help:

How Can Jesus Be God and Man?

 

[St_Worm2]

Why could Jesus not be adopted by God at his baptism?

Hello Doubting Brutus, why would anyone choose to adopt their own (begotten) child? Is that even possible to do Adoption makes kids (who are not our own, by nature) our own by choice, and by declaration, forensically.

What difference does it make if Jesus sinned before his Baptism?

This, I believe, has already been explained to you. I believe that the best place to begin understanding why can be found in the detailed explanation of the OT sacrificial system (especially the part about a sacrifice needing to be "spotless" to atone for the sins of the people, a requirement that looked forward to Jesus and His death on the Cross as the spotless, Lamb of God).

What does it matter if God became trinity at that moment?

God is the only being who "is", the only being who has always been/always will be. He is therefore both from and too everlasting. No one "becomes" God.

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no Savior besides Me."​

--David

 

[ml5363]

If the statements that you made are not true, then Lord Jesus is a liar. That is a big deal. I personally prefer truth to lies.

Also I think these things if we're untrue would make him less powerful, less unknowing, less God. It shows his power.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Also I think these things if we're untrue would make him less powerful, less unknowing, less God. It shows his power.

Agreed.