Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello Brethren and Sistren,
So this is triggered by 2 Corinthians 5:14,15,
"...the love of Christ compels/controls us ... ... that we should no longer live for ourselves .."
But we also believe that Christ has set us free, John 8:31,32 and Galatians 5:1.
So if we are controlled and compelled, in what does our freedom consist? How are we free?
As Christians we should never think of ourselves as independent. We believe that we are totally dependent on God for everything and that we are each one, a member of Christ's body. This last means we should also consider ourselves dependent on each other. 1 Corinthians 12:18-27 and Ephesians 4:13-16
The world equates freedom with being independent. How does christian freedom operate so that it is 'independent' of the world's 'freedom'?
><>
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie123

Emmy

Senior Veteran
Feb 15, 2004
10,199
939
✟50,995.00
Faith
Salvation Army
Dear fishamongmany. Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a relationship. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us:
" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Christians know the Love of God, and Christians will live a Love-Filled life for God our Heavenly Father, and for our brothers and sisters: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends, we will treat them as we would love to be treated.
God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," to give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring,
be kind and always use friendly words. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. Love is very catching, and soon love will change us into the men and women which God wants us to be. In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to receive eternal life? Jesus answered: " You know what Matthew 22: 35-40: says? DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE. Christianity is a relationship, we Love God and love each other, everything we say or do will be from Love and Joy. That is the nature which God wants us to have, Love and Joy and Compassion and Forgiveness, a nature of Christian Freedom. I say this with love, fishamongmany. Greetings fro Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

longwait

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2016
1,118
769
42
asia
✟85,978.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Lord's yoke is easy and His burden is light. The world's burden is heavy. Christian freedom does not mean one is free to sin but it is a breaking away(freedom) from sin that keeps us in bondage and slavery to it. Being a slave to sin is being a slave to the devil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We have liberty on christ..he sets the captives free. So freedom FROM sin.
Not, as the world tells people, freedom TO sin.

Hello Goodbook,
yes - yes - maybe? - yes (edit - but see next post).
Why do I say 'maybe?' for "freedom FROM sin"?
My understanding (and belief) from God's Word is that Our Lord's substitutionary death frees me from the power and the penalty of sin. He has paid, I am acquitted and 'go free', Halleluia! But God's Word and 40+ yrs of 'going free' tells me that I am not free from sin's influences and persuasions nor can I say in any absolute sense, here and now, that I am 'free from sin'. In Christ we are without sin. This I believe and I believe that I am in Christ. But I am also in the flesh and in this world, see Romans 7:15 - 8:17.
Another great freedom we have is freedom from the many fears that oppress and manipulate those who don't believe God.

However, maybe more than 'freedoms from', I'm trying to delve into the seeming tensions between being servants/slaves and being 'free to ...' For example, do we wait to be told, go and .../ do we, go and ... on our own initiative (freedom?)/ do we make a coffee and binge on TV (or ...)(freedom?)?
Go well
><>
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Lord's yoke is easy and His burden is light. The world's burden is heavy. Christian freedom does not mean one is free to sin but it is a breaking away(freedom) from sin that keeps us in bondage and slavery to it. Being a slave to sin is being a slave to the devil.
Hi there longwait,
So is that's right, we are not free to sin? But Christians sin or is that not the case with you?
So in what does our freedom consist? We are free to ...?
Go well
><>
 
Upvote 0
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dear fishamongmany. Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a relationship. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us:
" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Christians know the Love of God, and Christians will live a Love-Filled life for God our Heavenly Father, and for our brothers and sisters: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends, we will treat them as we would love to be treated.
God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," to give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring,
be kind and always use friendly words. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. Love is very catching, and soon love will change us into the men and women which God wants us to be. In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to receive eternal life? Jesus answered: " You know what Matthew 22: 35-40: says? DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE. Christianity is a relationship, we Love God and love each other, everything we say or do will be from Love and Joy. That is the nature which God wants us to have, Love and Joy and Compassion and Forgiveness, a nature of Christian Freedom. I say this with love, fishamongmany. Greetings fro Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Hello Emmy, sister in Christ,
Thanks for this input. You say, "Christians will live a Love-Filled life for God our Heavenly Father, and for our brothers and sisters: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends, we will treat them as we would love to be treated.", I agree that that is what we want to do and mostly try to do but 'bull's-eyes' are few and far between for most of us :(:).
A relationship, yes, and relationships, yes, but with relationships come responsibilities and expectations and don't these necessarily curtail our freedom?
God bless you
><>
 
Upvote 0

Shempster

ImJustMe
Supporter
Dec 28, 2014
1,560
786
✟258,881.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Freedom is what one experiences by obeying the law.
The law we obey is the greatest commandment to Love God and others as ourselves. If we never fail in this...in our conversations, our child-rearing methods, our relationships, in our hearts and in our minds then we actually achieve real freedom. Sin isn't something we fight to resist...it just is no longer part of our shared nature with Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Emmy

Senior Veteran
Feb 15, 2004
10,199
939
✟50,995.00
Faith
Salvation Army
Dear Shempster. Freedom comes by following the Law, but sadly there are many Laws. In Matthew 22:35-40:
Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: " On these two Commandments
hang all the Law and the Prophets." Jesus tells us easy to understand and without variation. Love God with all our beings, (God made us in His Image) loving and always kind and trusting. Sadly our representatives Adam and Eve,
believed a scheming Serpent`s lies, and God banished us to Earth. In time Jesus came and we were given a second chance. God wants loving sons and daughters.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," to give up our selfish and unloving ways, and be Loving and Caring and kind, always. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told to " ask and receive," we ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. We keep doing this and The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. I believe with all my heart that we are in this world to learn to Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls and with all our minds, and that we love our neighbour as we love ourselves. God is Love and love and joy will be our GOAL to Freedom. I say this with love, Shempster. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

ken777

"to live is Christ, and to die is gain"
Aug 6, 2007
2,245
661
Australia
✟48,308.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello Brethren and Sistren,
So this is triggered by 2 Corinthians 5:14,15,
"...the love of Christ compels/controls us ... ... that we should no longer live for ourselves .."
But we also believe that Christ has set us free, John 8:31,32 and Galatians 5:1.
So if we are controlled and compelled, in what does our freedom consist? How are we free?
As Christians we should never think of ourselves as independent. We believe that we are totally dependent on God for everything and that we are each one, a member of Christ's body. This last means we should also consider ourselves dependent on each other. 1 Corinthians 12:18-27 and Ephesians 4:13-16
The world equates freedom with being independent. How does christian freedom operate so that it is 'independent' of the world's 'freedom'?
><>
Galatians 5:1 you quoted refers, in context, to freedom from the Law. Some people were trying to say Christians should be circumcised and Paul was explaining that Christ has set us free from the curse of sin and we no longer need to do anything to earn our salvation.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Galatians 5:13-14)
 
  • Like
Reactions: dayhiker
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Freedom is what one experiences by obeying the law.
The law we obey is the greatest commandment to Love God and others as ourselves. If we never fail in this...in our conversations, our child-rearing methods, our relationships, in our hearts and in our minds then we actually achieve real freedom. Sin isn't something we fight to resist...it just is no longer part of our shared nature with Christ.
Hello Shemster,
You say, "If we never fail in this ... we actually achieve real freedom."
It's a big "if" though isn't it? Is "not failing" your experience? Is the freedom that Our Lord speaks of 'achieved' or can it perhaps only be 'received'?
I disagree that sin isn't something we fight to resist, Genesis 4:7, Ephesians 6:11.
Sin is certainly not any part of Christ's nature and Christ by his Spirit lives in the Christian and we by faith can live in Him but sin, even for the Christian, will still try "to reign in our mortal bodies" and needs to be continually overcome, Romans 6:10-14.
Go well
><>
 
Upvote 0

tatteredsoul

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,941
1,034
New York/Int'l
✟14,624.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Hello Brethren and Sistren,
So this is triggered by 2 Corinthians 5:14,15,
"...the love of Christ compels/controls us ... ... that we should no longer live for ourselves .."
But we also believe that Christ has set us free, John 8:31,32 and Galatians 5:1.
So if we are controlled and compelled, in what does our freedom consist? How are we free?
As Christians we should never think of ourselves as independent. We believe that we are totally dependent on God for everything and that we are each one, a member of Christ's body. This last means we should also consider ourselves dependent on each other. 1 Corinthians 12:18-27 and Ephesians 4:13-16
The world equates freedom with being independent. How does christian freedom operate so that it is 'independent' of the world's 'freedom'?
><>

The paradox is that the only way to be 100% free is to be 100% submissive to the will of God. Nothing created and imperfect has free will; it is abdicated once you sin. Only creatures that are consequently perfect have 100% freedom to do whatever they want to do in the universe. By creatures, I mean everything from prokaryotic cell to the highest choir of archon/power/angel/principality.

The meat of the paradox occurs when we see that perfect creatures with perfect will will do 100% of God's will using their free will. In other words, their entire free will deserved to them is used to freely obey and submit to 100% of God''s will.

The only entities that have free will are the ones that follow God's will 100% of the time. You will be free because you will be aligned with God 100%, so whatever He wants will be 100% what you want.

Ego, pride and selfishness can't really reconcile how submission is freedom - especially if you come from a culture that says you are basically your own god - responsible for all the success and failure of your life. It is no wonder why people think of themselves as failed (gods.) Imperfect created beings will never get free will. At best they have limited will - the freedom to respond to your experiences.

I know people also love to say, "you control your own destiny/life," or, "you make your own luck." That is spiritual bolongna if you have no faith, and are out of line with God''s will. And, it is can be a very damaging saying. The substance of your spirit is what we can "will," and God in fact tells us that we have a duty to Lord over our flesh in terms of doing good and rejecting sin. So, we do have some God given will.
 
Upvote 0
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 5:1 you quoted refers, in context, to freedom from the Law. Some people were trying to say Christians should be circumcised and Paul was explaining that Christ has set us free from the curse of sin and we no longer need to do anything to earn our salvation.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Galatians 5:13-14)
Hi there Ken,
My question, "What is the nature of christian freedom?", is trying, maybe, to get more of a philosophical handle on this than a theological one. Though of course for a Christian there is always a merging between the two. So far it's clear enough that salvation brings many 'freedoms from-s' but how do you square 2 Corinthians 5:14, "... the love of Christ constrains us ..." with being free and feeling free? Is christian freedom anything to do with freewill? :)
Go well
><>
 
Upvote 0
Sep 1, 2012
1,012
558
France
✟105,906.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The paradox is that the only way to be 100% free is to be 100% submissive to the will of God. Nothing created and imperfect has free will; it is abdicated once you sin. Only creatures that are consequently perfect have 100% freedom to do whatever they want to do in the universe. By creatures, I mean everything from prokaryotic cell to the highest choir of archon/power/angel/principality.

The meat of the paradox occurs when we see that perfect creatures with perfect will will do 100% of God's will using their free will. In other words, their entire free will deserved to them is used to freely obey and submit to 100% of God''s will.

The only entities that have free will are the ones that follow God's will 100% of the time. You will be free because you will be aligned with God 100%, so whatever He wants will be 100% what you want.

Ego, pride and selfishness can't really reconcile how submission is freedom - especially if you come from a culture that says you are basically your own god - responsible for all the success and failure of your life. It is no wonder why people think of themselves as failed (gods.) Imperfect created beings will never get free will. At best they have limited will - the freedom to respond to your experiences.

I know people also love to say, "you control your own destiny/life," or, "you make your own luck." That is spiritual bolongna if you have no faith, and are out of line with God''s will. And, it is can be a very damaging saying. The substance of your spirit is what we can "will," and God in fact tells us that we have a duty to Lord over our flesh in terms of doing good and rejecting sin. So, we do have some God given will.
Hello tatteredsoul,
In broad brush terms I agree with you say. Maybe then it is the relationship between obedience and freedom that is at the centre of this paradox? But I'm finding it difficult to get sorted. I'm one of those who think that even paradoxes can be sort of sorted :).
Have you read Arthur Pink's discourse on freewill in his book 'The Sovereignty of God', chpt 7? I've recently read it and (as I slowly digest it) am finding it very helpful regarding the question I'm asking. I'll try to summerise it sometime during the week.
Go well
><>
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0

tatteredsoul

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,941
1,034
New York/Int'l
✟14,624.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Hello tatteredsoul,
In broad brush terms I agree with you say. Maybe then it is the relationship between obedience and freedom that is at the centre of this paradox? But I'm finding it difficult to get sorted. I'm one of those who think that even paradoxes can be sort of sorted :).
Have you read Arthur Pink's discourse on freewill in his book 'The Sovereignty of God', chpt 7? I've recently read it and (as I slowly digest it) am finding it very helpful regarding the question I'm asking. I'll try to summerise it sometime during the week.
Go well
><>

The conclusion I came to was DECADES in the making, and came with my own "angel" I wrestled with until he had to pop my proverbial hip out of place, and I stopped fighting. Then listened (because I had no choice.) It may be crude, but I think there is something to the paradox.

I will read the chapter and get back to your comment in context.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hello Brethren and Sistren,
So this is triggered by 2 Corinthians 5:14,15,
"...the love of Christ compels/controls us ... ... that we should no longer live for ourselves .."
But we also believe that Christ has set us free, John 8:31,32 and Galatians 5:1.
So if we are controlled and compelled, in what does our freedom consist? How are we free?
As Christians we should never think of ourselves as independent. We believe that we are totally dependent on God for everything and that we are each one, a member of Christ's body. This last means we should also consider ourselves dependent on each other. 1 Corinthians 12:18-27 and Ephesians 4:13-16
The world equates freedom with being independent. How does christian freedom operate so that it is 'independent' of the world's 'freedom'?
><>

The freedom that we have in Messiah is the freedom to do the things that God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good, and the freedom from doing the things that God has revealed to be sin.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Dear fishamongmany. Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a relationship. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us:
" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Christians know the Love of God, and Christians will live a Love-Filled life for God our Heavenly Father, and for our brothers and sisters: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends, we will treat them as we would love to be treated.
God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and Bless us.
The Bible tells us to " Repent and be Born Again," to give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring,
be kind and always use friendly words. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," we keep asking for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. Love is very catching, and soon love will change us into the men and women which God wants us to be. In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to receive eternal life? Jesus answered: " You know what Matthew 22: 35-40: says? DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE. Christianity is a relationship, we Love God and love each other, everything we say or do will be from Love and Joy. That is the nature which God wants us to have, Love and Joy and Compassion and Forgiveness, a nature of Christian Freedom. I say this with love, fishamongmany. Greetings fro Emmy, your sister in Christ.

[ri-lij-uh n]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Christianity is a religion by definition. It is a religion that teaches about the importance of having a relationship with God, but it is nevertheless still a religion. Jesus came to teach true religion.
 
Upvote 0

tatteredsoul

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,941
1,034
New York/Int'l
✟14,624.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Hello tatteredsoul,
In broad brush terms I agree with you say. Maybe then it is the relationship between obedience and freedom that is at the centre of this paradox? But I'm finding it difficult to get sorted. I'm one of those who think that even paradoxes can be sort of sorted :).
Have you read Arthur Pink's discourse on freewill in his book 'The Sovereignty of God', chpt 7? I've recently read it and (as I slowly digest it) am finding it very helpful regarding the question I'm asking. I'll try to summerise it sometime during the week.
Go well
><>

Arthur Pink sounds more restrictive on free will than my paradox, though perhaps not by much.

It sounds like he is for predestination in the sense that God determined the elect, who would be saved for what purpose, who would not receive salvation, and what all of those "agents" will do in order to completely serve Him and His will, for His good.

In that sense I agreen with Pink. As I posited, no one has free will, and at best we have limited will to choose how to respond to what happens (i.e. this day worship God, or face judgment...) Though, Pink would argue even that limited will is an allusion.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hi there longwait,
So is that's right, we are not free to sin? But Christians sin or is that not the case with you?
So in what does our freedom consist? We are free to ...?
Go well
><>

People have the freedom to do all sorts of things that they don't choose to use, or they have the freedom not to do something, but choose to do it anyway, so having a freedom does not necessarily entail using it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Galatians 5:1 you quoted refers, in context, to freedom from the Law. Some people were trying to say Christians should be circumcised and Paul was explaining that Christ has set us free from the curse of sin and we no longer need to do anything to earn our salvation.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Galatians 5:13-14)

Do you think that God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them back under bondage to His law? No, it for freedom that God sets us free. God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:145, James 1:25), and it is sin, which is the transgression of the it (1 John 3:4) that puts us in bondage. It can't be both obedience and disobedience to the law that puts us in bondage. God said that what He commanded was for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13), not to put us in bondage. While being legalistically required to obey God's law in order to earn our salvation would be bondage, God never required that of anyone, and that is fact a perversion of His law. The one and only way to be saved is by faith and living by faith is living in a way that demonstrates that we trust God that His commands are for our own good.

God's law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and it does not require anyone to become circumcised in order to become saved, so in Galatians 5:1, Paul was not arguing against obeying God's law, but rather he was speaking against obeying man's law. We must obey God rather than man, so we should be careful not to take something that was against obeying man as being against obeying God. So if God had commanded all Gentiles to become circumcised and Paul said that Gentiles don't need to, then we should obey God rather than Paul, but again, God never commanded that. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, it is up front that what God had commanded brings life and a blessing for obedience and death and a curse for disobedience, so choose life. Messiah summarized God's law as being about how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so it missing to point to say that we just need to obey the one command to love, so we don't have to obey to any of God's other commands for how He wants us to love.
 
Upvote 0