The myth of a completely free-will....

Light of the East

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Okay, so here we are.

First of all, I apologize. "Full of it" is really too strong. Perhaps I should have said something like "If you believe we have a 100% free-will, I must strongly disagree with you because of the four above points."

Mea culpa. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner!

I still fail to see how one can be considered to be truly free if one is impeded by the four points which I mentioned in my post. It would be like tying a 5 pound weight to each shoe of a track star and then asking him to go out and will a 100-yard dash. Not even remotely possible.

St. Paul speaks about the "old man," who is within us, and urges us to put him away. I must think that he (the old man) is that sin-nature within that longs for sin and eagerly turns to it, the man we must "put off" and instead "put on" the new man in Christ.

But before we are saved, we cannot even do that, for no help from the Holy Spirit is available to those who are not baptized into Christ. Thus, the natural man is at a great disadvantage from the start. His sin nature does not want to hear the Gospel, he will, except by the grace of God, reject it outright, and even the baptized Christian must fight this inner enemy all the days of his life.

Jesus said that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil. With such a formidable array stacked against us, deceiving us in the many decisions we have to make - how can one possibly be said to be 100% free?

Free-will, yes! 100% free. Don't see it.

Your turn!
 

Anto9us

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the other people in the race might also have weights attached to their shoes.

No epistemological basis for saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for the track star to win, based on info given

Many people choose to believe man has no free will -- out of their own free will they choose to believe this
 
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Ken Rank

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Okay, so here we are.

First of all, I apologize. "Full of it" is really too strong. Perhaps I should have said something like "If you believe we have a 100% free-will, I must strongly disagree with you because of the four above points."

Mea culpa. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner!

I still fail to see how one can be considered to be truly free if one is impeded by the four points which I mentioned in my post. It would be like tying a 5 pound weight to each shoe of a track star and then asking him to go out and will a 100-yard dash. Not even remotely possible.

St. Paul speaks about the "old man," who is within us, and urges us to put him away. I must think that he (the old man) is that sin-nature within that longs for sin and eagerly turns to it, the man we must "put off" and instead "put on" the new man in Christ.

But before we are saved, we cannot even do that, for no help from the Holy Spirit is available to those who are not baptized into Christ. Thus, the natural man is at a great disadvantage from the start. His sin nature does not want to hear the Gospel, he will, except by the grace of God, reject it outright, and even the baptized Christian must fight this inner enemy all the days of his life.

Jesus said that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil. With such a formidable array stacked against us, deceiving us in the many decisions we have to make - how can one possibly be said to be 100% free?

Free-will, yes! 100% free. Don't see it.

Your turn!
I don't care to get into this debate, it is generally a waste of time. I will just quote God, since Moses "wrote the words of the LORD."

Deut. 30:19b I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.
 
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Light of the East

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Said with a quiet voice as a respectful request. This is an ORTHODOX debate board. I am not at all interested in any other ideas than those of the Orthodox faith. I would respectfully request that only those who are Orthodox post replies to the OP.

Thank you very much.
 
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Chesterton

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Okay, so here we are.

First of all, I apologize. "Full of it" is really too strong. Perhaps I should have said something like "If you believe we have a 100% free-will, I must strongly disagree with you because of the four above points."

Mea culpa. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner!
Don't worry about it. :)
I still fail to see how one can be considered to be truly free if one is impeded by the four points which I mentioned in my post. It would be like tying a 5 pound weight to each shoe of a track star and then asking him to go out and will a 100-yard dash. Not even remotely possible.

St. Paul speaks about the "old man," who is within us, and urges us to put him away. I must think that he (the old man) is that sin-nature within that longs for sin and eagerly turns to it, the man we must "put off" and instead "put on" the new man in Christ.

But before we are saved, we cannot even do that, for no help from the Holy Spirit is available to those who are not baptized into Christ. Thus, the natural man is at a great disadvantage from the start. His sin nature does not want to hear the Gospel, he will, except by the grace of God, reject it outright, and even the baptized Christian must fight this inner enemy all the days of his life.

Jesus said that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil. With such a formidable array stacked against us, deceiving us in the many decisions we have to make - how can one possibly be said to be 100% free?

Free-will, yes! 100% free. Don't see it.

Your turn!

In your other post, you spoke against free will. You said "No....we are not 'free...'". In this OP you're talking about "a completely free will" and being "100% free", so you've altered it to raise the bar a bit. Anyway, as to those four points:

1. True freedom would consist of not having a sin-corrupted nature which leads us so easily to make wrong and evil choices. The only way we could be said to have "free-will" would be if we were not affected by sin.​

In the part I underlined, you admit we make choices. You're just saying that we can be influenced by things, I guess. Sure, Christians, atheists, everyone will admit that.

2. Furthermore, to make a free-will "choice," we would have to have a complete picture of both of the choices. In other words, we would have to know exactly what it was that we were choosing (such as sin and the ultimate consequences of our choices) and God (and the beauty of His love for us). Not being able to see either one of these clearly, we can only make decisions which are foundationally conditioned by our fallen state (See # 1)​

This makes no sense to me. Ever watch the game show Let's Make A Deal? The contestant has to choose one of three doors and he has no idea what's behind any of them. He has no picture of what he's choosing, nor what the consequences will be, but still freely chooses. Exercising will does not require omnipotence or anything close to it.

3. Then there is the issue of being deceived, that is, of having malevolent spirits working constantly to convince us that sinful actions are really in our best interest and good for us (such as drunkenness, fornication, drug usage, greed for as much money as we can get, etc.) How can it be said that we have a free-will choice when we have unseen spirits putting deceptive thoughts in our heads? Again, refer to #1. Our sinful and corrupt natures more than easily default to the sinful choice. That is not free-will.​

Again, you're admitting that we make choices, but only noting that we can be influenced or even tricked. ("Default" isn't really the right word. We don't have an literal default the way a computer does.)

4. Can we make a choice for God's good things when so many Christians around us give us such a horrid example of the Christian faith, especially those in authority? It was such wretched examples of Christian living that for decades kept me from examining the Catholic faith or anything like it (Orthodoxy).​

Simple answer: yes. Plus we have many excellent examples of the Christian faith. To remind us to focus on those, we Orthodox even make pictures of them and put them on the wall. ;)
 
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ArmyMatt

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we absolutely have a free will. the problem is none of those actually address what makes our will free. just because a will is darkened and fallen, that doesn't mean it's still not free.

the guy can run the 100 with the weights on his legs. it might take more time and more sweat, but it can still be done.
 
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Chesterton

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the guy can run the 100 with the weights on his legs. it might take more time and more sweat, but it can still be done.
Well, yeah, will and ability are two different things. He can still have the will to run even if he can't run. It would be absurd to say a prisoner doesn't have a will to be free because he can't be free.
 
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Light of the East

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In your other post, you spoke against free will. You said "No....we are not 'free...'". In this OP you're talking about "a completely free will" and being "100% free", so you've altered it to raise the bar a bit. Anyway, as to those four points:

Well, that's because the idea of "freedom" would involve more than just the bare ability to exercise one's will. I guess we are jousting over the meaning of words here. I can see your point, i.e., that we at least can exercise our will in certain directions, even if they are wrong. We are not unable to do so, like some kind of robot that can only move when the controller tells it to (which is a fine definition of Calvinism and predestination).

1. True freedom would consist of not having a sin-corrupted nature which leads us so easily to make wrong and evil choices. The only way we could be said to have "free-will" would be if we were not affected by sin.​

In the part I underlined, you admit we make choices. You're just saying that we can be influenced by things, I guess. Sure, Christians, atheists, everyone will admit that.

I do see your point. My concern is perhaps better described as we don't have the freedom to make the right choices when we have so many things working against us.

2. Furthermore, to make a free-will "choice," we would have to have a complete picture of both of the choices. In other words, we would have to know exactly what it was that we were choosing (such as sin and the ultimate consequences of our choices) and God (and the beauty of His love for us). Not being able to see either one of these clearly, we can only make decisions which are foundationally conditioned by our fallen state (See # 1)​

This makes no sense to me. Ever watch the game show Let's Make A Deal? The contestant has to choose one of three doors and he has no idea what's behind any of them. He has no picture of what he's choosing, nor what the consequences will be, but still freely chooses. Exercising will does not require omnipotence or anything close to it.

Not a good comparison to me, and the reason is this: the contestants are not choosing between eternal life and eternal torment. That puts this thing in a whole 'nother category of seriousness, and quite frankly, it terrifies me. It does so because my "default setting," as it were, has been all my life to make the wrong decisions. So I am in danger of being condemned forever because I can't get my head screwed on straight, no matter how hard I try.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should even continue with the Great Fast. It hasn't done me a whole lot of good for all the years I have tried hard to keep it. I'm still weak in my faith, an angry person inside, constantly at Confession, failing, and don't have a real sense of God as love. So to me, from a personal level, when people say "free-will," because my will is precisely NOT FREE to do the things I know I should do, but defaults to sinful behavior, and that behavior will condemn me -- yeah, I get a little upset about the whole situation.


3. Then there is the issue of being deceived, that is, of having malevolent spirits working constantly to convince us that sinful actions are really in our best interest and good for us (such as drunkenness, fornication, drug usage, greed for as much money as we can get, etc.) How can it be said that we have a free-will choice when we have unseen spirits putting deceptive thoughts in our heads? Again, refer to #1. Our sinful and corrupt natures more than easily default to the sinful choice. That is not free-will.​

Again, you're admitting that we make choices, but only noting that we can be influenced or even tricked. ("Default" isn't really the right word. We don't have an literal default the way a computer does.)

Then why is it so very, very easy to sin and so very hard to become holy? No, I'm sorry, but I cannot see our default setting as being anything other than being less than Christlike. Look, in Orthodoxy we believe in healing of the soul, right? Well, that would mean that the default setting is a sickness, not health. This is why even those who have been monks for years struggle.

4. Can we make a choice for God's good things when so many Christians around us give us such a horrid example of the Christian faith, especially those in authority? It was such wretched examples of Christian living that for decades kept me from examining the Catholic faith or anything like it (Orthodoxy).​

Simple answer: yes. Plus we have many excellent examples of the Christian faith. To remind us to focus on those, we Orthodox even make pictures of them and put them on the wall.

Yeah, I thought of that after I typed it, but I left it up anyway. That's really nice if you are born into an Orthodox country or the Orthodox faith. Something that I wasn't even interested in for 52 years of my life. And then you sit under the teaching of some Fundamentalist bupkis spewing out his venom against anything Orthodox or Catholic and instead of seeing the saints as an example, you are so glad you are a good little Fundamentalist because these poor people are deceived and going to hell forever.

As you can see, I feel like I have a real "dog in the fight" when I start discussing this. I look back over my life and all I see is a horror story that is continuing to this day because my will is not free to make the right decisions. Never was and I wonder if it ever will be.
 
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ArmyMatt

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the problem is the Mother of God disproves the whole argument. her will is just as naturally free as ours today. just because it's harder to choose the good, that doesn't mean we don't have free will.

and again, the Fathers are very clear that we have a free will, and that God perfectly respects our freedom.
 
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Chesterton

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Well, that's because the idea of "freedom" would involve more than just the bare ability to exercise one's will. I guess we are jousting over the meaning of words here. I can see your point, i.e., that we at least can exercise our will in certain directions, even if they are wrong. We are not unable to do so, like some kind of robot that can only move when the controller tells it to (which is a fine definition of Calvinism and predestination).

I do see your point. My concern is perhaps better described as we don't have the freedom to make the right choices when we have so many things working against us.
We believe that God will take into account the things we have working against us individually. He is just, and will not judge unfairly. Here's a very short story.
Not a good comparison to me, and the reason is this: the contestants are not choosing between eternal life and eternal torment. That puts this thing in a whole 'nother category of seriousness, and quite frankly, it terrifies me. It does so because my "default setting," as it were, has been all my life to make the wrong decisions. So I am in danger of being condemned forever because I can't get my head screwed on straight, no matter how hard I try.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should even continue with the Great Fast. It hasn't done me a whole lot of good for all the years I have tried hard to keep it. I'm still weak in my faith, an angry person inside, constantly at Confession, failing, and don't have a real sense of God as love. So to me, from a personal level, when people say "free-will," because my will is precisely NOT FREE to do the things I know I should do, but defaults to sinful behavior, and that behavior will condemn me -- yeah, I get a little upset about the whole situation.


Then why is it so very, very easy to sin and so very hard to become holy? No, I'm sorry, but I cannot see our default setting as being anything other than being less than Christlike. Look, in Orthodoxy we believe in healing of the soul, right? Well, that would mean that the default setting is a sickness, not health. This is why even those who have been monks for years struggle.

Yeah, I thought of that after I typed it, but I left it up anyway. That's really nice if you are born into an Orthodox country or the Orthodox faith. Something that I wasn't even interested in for 52 years of my life. And then you sit under the teaching of some Fundamentalist bupkis spewing out his venom against anything Orthodox or Catholic and instead of seeing the saints as an example, you are so glad you are a good little Fundamentalist because these poor people are deceived and going to hell forever.

As you can see, I feel like I have a real "dog in the fight" when I start discussing this. I look back over my life and all I see is a horror story that is continuing to this day because my will is not free to make the right decisions. Never was and I wonder if it ever will be.
It just seems like you're arguing that it's hard to be good, not that we don't actually have will. Of course it's hard for all of us to be good, we fight against the world, the flesh and the devil. That's why we needed a Saviour.
 
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Lukaris

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I think we either choose to do good or evil in thought and action. In the church we read John 5:24-30 during the funeral services and the Gospel seems clear in the basic summation of good vs bad. The faithful who God says we’re good and those by nature who were good are saved and those who were evil are unsaved. It seems that basic to understand but impossible to live by but by the mercy and grace of God in God, the Son of God, Jesus Christ there is salvation.
 
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When we look at lives of the Saints, we can see where some Saints had a more natural inclination towards God and piety than others. I believe it was in the life of Saint Nicholas where it even says that he wouldn't nurse from his mother as a baby on Wednesdays and Fridays so as not to break the fast. Compare that to Mary of Egypt who spent years violently fighting against the memories of what she had done.
I think this all underscores why it's so important to raise children as part of the church. It gives them an easier starting point. It's still difficult, but at least they know more what to do and don't get too mired in a sinful life.
I think it's fair to say that the deck is stacked against us mightily, but with God working in us, all things are possible.
I doubt that Mary of Egypt or Saint Nicholas felt very "free" but they trusted in God and continued to make the right choices. We are slaves of sin or servants of God. The good news is that we get to choose who to serve. But we work for the master we choose. This too is a choice. We can choose to do evil or good at any time. Sin is usually the easier choice, but that is not always even the case. I would have a very hard time taking someone's life, but lust or gossip come quite easily if I let them.
 
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... Just read somewhere, (Archimandrite Sophrony's biography of St. Silouan the Anthonite, I think) that our freewill is most precious to God. This makes profound sense, since without it we can't Love Him back for His Love towards us. Only our freewill makes us any more than mere brute beasts operating solely on natural instinct, or Lifeless puppets responding to the pulling of strings.
 
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Okay, so here we are.

First of all, I apologize. "Full of it" is really too strong. Perhaps I should have said something like "If you believe we have a 100% free-will, I must strongly disagree with you because of the four above points."

Mea culpa. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner!

I still fail to see how one can be considered to be truly free if one is impeded by the four points which I mentioned in my post. It would be like tying a 5 pound weight to each shoe of a track star and then asking him to go out and will a 100-yard dash. Not even remotely possible.

St. Paul speaks about the "old man," who is within us, and urges us to put him away. I must think that he (the old man) is that sin-nature within that longs for sin and eagerly turns to it, the man we must "put off" and instead "put on" the new man in Christ.

But before we are saved, we cannot even do that, for no help from the Holy Spirit is available to those who are not baptized into Christ. Thus, the natural man is at a great disadvantage from the start. His sin nature does not want to hear the Gospel, he will, except by the grace of God, reject it outright, and even the baptized Christian must fight this inner enemy all the days of his life.

Jesus said that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil. With such a formidable array stacked against us, deceiving us in the many decisions we have to make - how can one possibly be said to be 100% free?

Free-will, yes! 100% free. Don't see it.

Your turn!

An overly high anthropology seems to be common in Eastern Christian thought. It's not uniformly present, though, but it does pop out at times.
 
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ArmyMatt

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An overly high anthropology seems to be common in Eastern Christian thought. It's not uniformly present, though, but it does pop out at times.

actually, our anthropology is balanced between why God created us and what we have done with the gifts He gave. God did become man after all.

high anthropology? yes. overly high anthropology? no.
 
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