"The Myth of a Christian Nation" vs. "For God and Country"

christalee4

Senior Veteran
Apr 11, 2005
3,252
323
✟5,083.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
So, I take it that saying the pledge of allegiance to the American flag in a church service like I experienced in IA would have set a few alarms off in you, yes?

I assume that Maelstrom is still thinking about that one. Hmmm.
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
That happened to me before at my church I attended in KY before I moved--they brought out a big US flag on the altar and the congregation stood up and pledged allegiance to it. I stayed in my seat. I didn't forget it, though--it lowered my opinion of the whole church tremendously (we didn't get along much anyway, it was near Ft. Knox and it was one of those "Jesus wants you to vote Republican" churches that's turning everyone off to Christianity and why I used to be an atheist). That would never happen in my present congregation, happily :)

Pledging allegiance to the Christian flag isn't right, either. You're not supposed to pledge your allegiance to *anything* except GOD. You only have one allegiance, and you can only give it to one master. Pledging your allegiance to something else, whether it be a graven image or a federal incorporation, makes it your idol, i.e. something worshipped/served that isn't the Lord. We're not to have any idols--serve God and only God, and you'll be much happier. Paul, or any other apostle, would probably go off on Americans. Holy Spirit or not, he'd lose his temper if he saw what's going on here in the name of Christ. Is Jesus even going to let Americans into heaven? It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...

As they said on American Idol last year (I heard about it on the internet), ARE YOU PREPARED TO WORSHIP YOUR IDOL?? Americans give a resounding YES!!!!! Isn't the Federal Reserve Note just the most beautiful thing ever invented?? Isn't it so much sexier than some poor Jew on a cross? Let's just love on it a little, give it a hug, bow down to it... Come on, you know you want to, it sure makes women aroused, they can't help but take their clothes off anytime they see that little green picture of a man in a powdered wig--"Federal Reserve Note" is the three-word phrase every woman wants to hear, she'll do anything for you or to you if you can give her that. Doesn't it smell lovely? I bet Jesus didn't smell so good, beat up and crucified. The US government really seems to have its act together, so why not forget about silly notions like the kingdom of heaven and just focus on how we can be better Americans and show the rest of the world the light of our "mixed economy" (socialism) and fractional reserve banking (trillions in debt) and graduated income tax (it all goes straight into the pockets of private bankers)! Isn't democracy (government-controlled education and a two-party system ensuring that the people will either vote for "more government" or "less freedom") better than theocracy ("love your neighbor as yourself")? USA is #1!!!
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟14,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That happened to me before at my church I attended in KY before I moved--they brought out a big US flag on the altar and the congregation stood up and pledged allegiance to it. I stayed in my seat. I didn't forget it, though--it lowered my opinion of the whole church tremendously (we didn't get along much anyway, it was near Ft. Knox and it was one of those "Jesus wants you to vote Republican" churches that's turning everyone off to Christianity and why I used to be an atheist). That would never happen in my present congregation, happily :)

Pledging allegiance to the Christian flag isn't right, either. You're not supposed to pledge your allegiance to *anything* except GOD. You only have one allegiance, and you can only give it to one master. Pledging your allegiance to something else, whether it be a graven image or a federal incorporation, makes it your idol, i.e. something worshipped/served that isn't the Lord. We're not to have any idols--serve God and only God, and you'll be much happier. Paul, or any other apostle, would probably go off on Americans. Holy Spirit or not, he'd lose his temper if he saw what's going on here in the name of Christ. Is Jesus even going to let Americans into heaven? It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...

As they said on American Idol last year (I heard about it on the internet), ARE YOU PREPARED TO WORSHIP YOUR IDOL?? Americans give a resounding YES!!!!! Isn't the Federal Reserve Note just the most beautiful thing ever invented?? Isn't it so much sexier than some poor Jew on a cross? Let's just love on it a little, give it a hug, bow down to it... Come on, you know you want to, it sure makes women aroused, they can't help but take their clothes off anytime they see that little green picture of a man in a powdered wig--"Federal Reserve Note" is the three-word phrase every woman wants to hear, she'll do anything for you or to you if you can give her that. Doesn't it smell lovely? I bet Jesus didn't smell so good, beat up and crucified. The US government really seems to have its act together, so why not forget about silly notions like the kingdom of heaven and just focus on how we can be better Americans and show the rest of the world the light of our "mixed economy" (socialism) and fractional reserve banking (trillions in debt) and graduated income tax (it all goes straight into the pockets of private bankers)! Isn't democracy (government-controlled education and a two-party system ensuring that the people will either vote for "more government" or "less freedom") better than theocracy ("love your neighbor as yourself")? USA is #1!!!
And one more confirmation - you then, I believe, fall in the "Myth of a Christian Nation" camp, yes. In reality, there is no such thing as a "Christian" nation from Christ's perspective since His kingdom is not of this world. Would you agree with that statement?

You definately are coming at things from the same perspective as Boyd (as I also do). BTW - have you read the book? The one difference is that Boyd sees no problem with engaging the political process, just as long as you a) don't try to invoke God or Jesus or claim they are on your side; and b) always operate from a Christlike attitude of "love your neighbor". My take from you is that you believe we shouldn't engage politics or the culture at all, not even vote. Am I reading you right?
 
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,469
908
Pohjola
✟12,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I pledged my soul to Boss Hogg a long time ago.

We need more good ole boys like him.

Is he related to Hugo Boss? I fear my DH may have pledged his soul to Hugo.

Look, we have a "Christian flag" and a "national flag" brilliantly combined. So that makes our national religious cult a little more succinct.;)
:idea:

Hey, once you earn your teacher's spurs you can reform the traditional morning service, turn our blue cross 45 degrees clockwise, and start making the students pledge their allegiance to our National Cross. Hail the Republic and long live Il Presidente!

P.S. Congrats on your 1,001st post! :pink:
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟14,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Is he related to Hugo Boss? I fear my DH may have pledged his soul to Hugo.
LOL - Boss Hogg is a cultural reference to "The Dukes of Hazard". You are probably WAY too young (or way too Finish?)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kalevalatar
Upvote 0

Flynmonkie

The First Official FrankenMonkie ;)
Feb 23, 2004
3,803
238
Home of Harry Truman - Missouri
Visit site
✟20,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
LOL - Boss Hogg is a cultural reference to "The Dukes of Hazard". You are probably WAY too young (or way too Finish?)

:doh: hee... hee... hee...^_^
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Touma

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2007
7,201
773
36
Virginia
✟19,033.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We used to have recite pledges to the flag, christian flag, and the bible...in SUNDAY SCHOOL. Talk about indoctrination. I know now that I serve non but Christ, and am not a citizen of any nation, but rather the Kingdom of God.

Also, Christians should have no part in gov't or anything like that. We are to be separate from the world, not mingle in its affairs. We are to be focusing on things of above, not things that the world creates. America should not be labeled as a chrisitian nation. It is far from it.
Christian is a term that the world coined in order to give an earthly meaning to the servants of Christ. Now we use it to describe ourselves. I'd rather much call my self a slave of Christ, than a Christian.


A bit off topic from what i just said, but does any else think its sacrilegious to put "In God We Trust" on money? The love of such money is the root of all evil, and its used to do very evil things, and we put an oath to God on it? Sickening.
 
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,469
908
Pohjola
✟12,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
LOL - Boss Hogg is a cultural reference to "The Dukes of Hazard". You are probably WAY too young (or way too Finish?)

Well, if those are the choices, then it has to be the latter. ;) I'm afraid I'm closer to finish(ed) than "young" as well as being also verry Finnish.

If I really strain my brain, I may have heard of "The Dukes of Hazard," I *think*, but that's it. Thanks for the tip, though. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Flynmonkie

The First Official FrankenMonkie ;)
Feb 23, 2004
3,803
238
Home of Harry Truman - Missouri
Visit site
✟20,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Well, if those are the choices, then it has to be the latter. ;) I'm afraid I'm closer to finish(ed) than "young" as well as being also verry Finnish.

If I really strain my brain, I may have heard of "The Dukes of Hazard," I *think*, but that's it. Thanks for the tip, though. :thumbsup:

The movie (based on the series with Jessica Simpson) was a box office hit last summer, and the summer prior I believe(2005)? You have to have heard of "Daisy Dukes"? (short-shorts on women – this is where it comes from) I mean really? I thought I was naive!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dukes_of_Hazzard

Not poking fun, just this little voice running through my head “generation gap, generation gap, generation gap”.;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kalevalatar
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,469
908
Pohjola
✟12,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The movie (based on the series with Jessica Simpson) was a box office hit last summer, and the summer prior I believe(2005)? You have to have heard of "Daisy Dukes"? (short-shorts on women – this is where it comes from) I mean really? I thought I was naive!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dukes_of_Hazzard

Not poking fun, just this little voice running through my head “generation gap, generation gap, generation gap”.;)

Yeah, it must be 75% of that pesky generation gap, 20% of pure ignorance, and 5% of living in the periphery of all things. :)

Now, I *think* I have heard of this Jessica Simpson lady and the "Daisy Dukes." However, ;) and I say this as someone who has done her "time" in both Phoenix, AZ, as well as in Canada, as well as having very nice, long, lean legs of my own ;) , that I A) don't recall wearing shorts of any kind, ever, during our life in North America, and B) Jessica Who, really, and why should I care?

Alas, as someone who really believes that knowing your cultural icons is pretty much *everything* these days, I really and truly appreciate what I've learned in this thread. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

TG123

Regular Member
Jul 1, 2006
4,964
203
somewhere
✟14,469.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have had two extrodinary yet opposing experiences in the last couple of weeks which prompt me to post this for discussion.

Starting with the more recent. Over the weekend we attended a Baptist church in IA while visiting our inlaws. Being a national holiday, there was a slight hint of patriotism in the air (and, apparently, on the church's agenda). During the opening prayer, amongst the obligatory prayers for our leaders, the troops, etc., the pastor made a strange declaration (strange in it's content and that it was part of the prayer.) He declared with certainty that our nation was founded on the Word of God. I quickly reviewed the Preamble to the Constitution in my head and tried to picture Jesus claiming any of it. I must admit, I am still want to find any evidence within either the Word of God or the various documents and principals of our American government to support such a contention. Maybe someone out there can help me understand exactly what part of the Word of God our country was founded on and where such foundation is expressed in the Constitution or the law.

But that was just the beginning of my discomfort. What happened next truly got me squirming in my seat. After the prayer, we proceeded to pledge allegiance to BOTH the American flag and the Christian flag. Since when do God's people, at least while gathered in God's house to worship God, pledge allegiance, first of all, to symbols, and second of all, to the secular symbol of some worldly kingdom? Talk about serving two masters.

Well, that brings me to the second experience, which had happened prior to this service, but which illuminated for me why such goings on should make me uneasy. A week prior to that I had finished reading Greg Boyd's book "The Myth of a Christian Nation". In that book, Pastor Boyd (who lost 20% of his congregation when he preached on these issues), proposes that not only is it inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, it is damaging to the true mission of the Church. I can't think of a more stark illustration of the dangers he expresses than what I observed in that little IA church.

So, finally, to the point of discussion. What is the mission of the Church (big "C") and what impact does it have on that mission when Christians ally themselves to flags and countries and try to force people to comply with God and His Word through use of the sword (politics, government, and the law) rather than show them God and His Word through the loving, self-sacrificial power of the cross?
Amen, brother to almost everything you said.

I don't thing Christians being politically involved is necessarily a bad thing, but we need to follow Jesus and reject political ideas and practices that contradict His teachings. That would make a person really unpopular with both the 'left' and 'right'. I believe it would mean calling for an end to abortion as well as the wars being waged in Afghanistan and Iraq and other covert wars like in Somalia. It would mean saying 'no' to tax cuts for multinational corporations and the super rich as well as refusing to allow the secularization of our schools and society to continue. It would mean doing away with a lot of things that both 'Republicans' and 'Democrats' hold dear.

I also don't believe that either America or Canada are or ever were Christian nations. Our founding fathers displaced, ghettoized and murdered First Nations peoples and owned slaves, and fought with other imperialist powers over land we stole from people who our countries really belong to. Politically, as Christians I believe we need to spread the Gospel, and live out our faith by working for justice and peace for all the people around the world and in our homelands who our governments have hurt and continue to hurt,

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Flynmonkie

The First Official FrankenMonkie ;)
Feb 23, 2004
3,803
238
Home of Harry Truman - Missouri
Visit site
✟20,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Yeah, it must be 75% of that pesky generation gap, 20% of pure ignorance, and 5% of living in the periphery of all things. :)

Now, I *think* I have heard of this Jessica Simpson lady and the "Daisy Dukes." However, ;) and I say this as someone who has done her "time" in both Phoenix, AZ, as well as in Canada, as well as having very nice, long, lean legs of my own ;) , that I A) don't recall wearing shorts of any kind, ever, during our life in North America, and B) Jessica Who, really, and why should I care?

Alas, as someone who really believes that knowing your cultural icons is pretty much *everything* these days, I really and truly appreciate what I've learned in this thread. :thumbsup:

Relax! Just keeping you in the loop! :wave:

(I don't wear the hoo-hoo shorts either!)
Hoo-hoo: Monkies personal term you wouldn't know!;)
 
Upvote 0

Flynmonkie

The First Official FrankenMonkie ;)
Feb 23, 2004
3,803
238
Home of Harry Truman - Missouri
Visit site
✟20,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Amen, brother to almost everything you said.

I don't thing Christians being politically involved is necessarily a bad thing, but we need to follow Jesus and reject political ideas and practices that contradict His teachings. That would make a person really unpopular with both the 'left' and 'right'. I believe it would mean calling for an end to abortion as well as the wars being waged in Afghanistan and Iraq and other covert wars like in Somalia. It would mean saying 'no' to tax cuts for multinational corporations and the super rich as well as refusing to allow the secularization of our schools and society to continue. It would mean doing away with a lot of things that both 'Republicans' and 'Democrats' hold dear.

I also don't believe that either America or Canada are or ever were Christian nations. Our founding fathers displaced, ghettoized and murdered First Nations peoples and owned slaves, and fought with other imperialist powers over land we stole from people who our countries really belong to. Politically, as Christians I believe we need to spread the Gospel, and live out our faith by working for justice and peace for all the people around the world and in our homelands who our governments have hurt and continue to hurt,

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz


And where does this fit into "God gives us choice"? Sounds more right than middle of the road to me. Then of course I agree with the tax cuts but the rest of it is pretty much situational. (Tired of hearing the word "secular" used so often by Christians Secular usually denotes Christians who decide where and how God wants them to work or not, instead of doing it the other way around IMHO) No one “stole” anything. They fought to develop a civilized country and the recent political groupies are doing their best to debunk that all in the name of capitalism. If Illegals really wanted/needed to do the right thing they would overthrow their own governments and become civilized too. Quit making excuses for criminals that are bogus and call it "Of God". God said to follow the law, unless it is unjust. There is nothing unjust about following a set of rules that are mandated by God himself.
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
And where does this fit into "God gives us choice"? Sounds more right than middle of the road to me. Then of course I agree with the tax cuts but the rest of it is pretty much situational. (Tired of hearing the word "secular" used so often by Christians Secular usually denotes Christians who decide where and how God wants them to work or not, instead of doing it the other way around IMHO) No one “stole” anything. They fought to develop a civilized country and the recent political groupies are doing their best to debunk that all in the name of capitalism. If Illegals really wanted/needed to do the right thing they would overthrow their own governments and become civilized too. Quit making excuses for criminals that are bogus and call it "Of God". God said to follow the law, unless it is unjust. There is nothing unjust about following a set of rules that are mandated by God himself.
People will change when others do, too!
They'll drop their delusions.
They disagree with starting a new system when they are doing well, but eventually circumstances will force them to see I am right.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

christalee4

Senior Veteran
Apr 11, 2005
3,252
323
✟5,083.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Right, I don't believe Christians should participate in evil at all.

So, 1) do you think Christians should or should not believe in wielding the sword as a Christian government to spread Christ's word, , or 2) fight non-believers, like the Muslims in international battles that will benefit our government, or 3) should do whatever it takes, even if it means by stealth, to get government positions in order to influence local and national policy?

I am just curious.
 
Upvote 0