"The Myth of a Christian Nation" vs. "For God and Country"

Ringo84

Separation of Church and State expert
Jul 31, 2006
19,228
5,252
A Cylon Basestar
Visit site
✟121,289.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This along with mention in the Declaration of Independence national days of prayer,a senate chaplin. Our money stamped with "in God we trust" putting our hand on the Bible. That all our older colleges were established in christian belief.

If we go down the road of taking religion out of government,we will be impoverished spiritually. The fact remains that this country has 82% of its people professing to be christians.

The danger is watering down the message of the gospel. As long as the message is true this country will be stronger.
national days of prayer


Which doesn't force anyone to pray to the Christian God but simply to pray.

a senate chaplin.


A Chaplain that speaks of his own beliefs - not the beliefs of the entire country as a whole.

Our money stamped with "in God we trust"


So what? Our money could say "The world is made of snow". Just because it's written on money doesn't make it absolutely true.

putting our hand on the Bible


You don't have to place your hand on the Bible. Candidates are allowed to take oaths on the religious book of their choice.

That all our older colleges were established in christian belief.


I question that statement. I also say "so what?" Just because a college is supposedly "established in Christian belief" doesn't change anything about our country.

If we go down the road of taking religion out of government


We've already been down that road for the past 200+ years.

we will be impoverished spiritually. The fact remains that this country has 82% of its people professing to be christians.


You seem to think that it's the government's job to spread the gospel. What's wrong with the church? Isn't that the church's job?

The danger is watering down the message of the gospel. As long as the message is true this country will be stronger.


That's a problem for the church. Not for the government.
Ringo
 
  • Like
Reactions: Suomipoika
Upvote 0

christalee4

Senior Veteran
Apr 11, 2005
3,252
323
✟5,083.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
But Jesus refrained from inserting religion into politics. He refused to get caught up in the political games the religious leaders, and even Pilate, wanted to play. His kingdom is "not of this world". I would argue that we are impoverished spiritually by intertwining religion with the government, because it detracts from our true calling and forces us to, as Boyd puts it, "drop the cross to pick up the sword." In reality, ANY kingdom of this world is incompatible with the Kingdom of God as manifested in Jesus and therefore any attempt at connecting those two incompatible entitites waters down both of them. IMO.

I completely agree. We don't need to wield the sword in order to spread God's word. However, other people and churches feel differently, and as a matter of fact, promote the wielding of the sword as a Christ-like endeavor.
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟14,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I completely agree. We don't need to wield the sword in order to spread God's word. However, other people and churches feel differently, and as a matter of fact, promote the wielding of the sword as a Christ-like endeavor.
That has been the sad legacy of the church since Constantine.
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟14,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Many of the most prominent "Founding Fathers" were "Deists," and did not believe in the Resurrection, Christ-Divinity, Trinity and/or Miracles.:bow:
I believe this as well, but that is being discussed in more detail and more on topic in other threads right now. My question is similar, but not quite the same. Should the church support alignment with the government, even to the point of pledging allegiance to the government and/or it's symbols within a church service? And should the government, for that matter, ally with any church? It seems like our churches want to freely exercise religion and be free to intertwine it with the government. I think that waters down the faith at best, and is actually idolatrous and blasphemous at worst. I'm curious if anyone supports the "For God and Country" perspective.
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
If Paul walked into a church meeting and saw the congregation pledging their allegiance to a statue of Caesar that they had placed up on the alter, what would he do?

Let's compare the Bible and the U.S. Constitution:

The Bible says that there is but ONE lawgiver (James 4:12) and that anyone who does not recognize Jesus as Christ is of the *antichrist* (1 John 4:2-3).

U.S. Constitution says that *it* is the supreme law of the land, not God. Furthermore it says that the United States shall not grant any title of nobility (which means that the United States does NOT recognize Jesus as Lord or King or Christ) and that anyone holding office in the United States is prohibited from receiving any type of gift from a foreign king or prince or state, which means that no one in office can receive the gift of salvation and eternal life from Jesus Christ.

You'll never hear politicians say, "I accept salvation from Jesus Christ" because they'd be impeached if they said so--the Constitution forbids them to accept such a gift. You'll never hear politicians say, "I grant Jesus Christ the title of Lord." They're not allowed, having sworn to uphold the Constitution. Thus, they are NOT Christians. If you don't confess Jesus as Lord and King and accept His gift to you, you are NOT a Christian. So think of that next time you participate in the US or believe in the Constitution.

If you are part of the US, which does not recognize Jesus Christ as Lord, then the spirit of the antichrist has deceived you! This includes churches who have incorporated themselves with the federal government and thus belong to the IRS rather than being part of the corporate body of Christ.

The devil wants desperately to set up a state, such as the USA, that will rule mankind under some other laws besides the commandments of God. But the kingdom in which Jesus reigns is that in which the only laws are God's laws, namely, that we should love God and love our neighbors as ourselves. The two kingdoms are completely incompatible--you have to choose to whom you'll give your allegiance! For no man can serve two masters...
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
I completely agree. We don't need to wield the sword in order to spread God's word. However, other people and churches feel differently, and as a matter of fact, promote the wielding of the sword as a Christ-like endeavor.
About not needing to wield the sword to spread God's word, right on!!! We can't witness to sinners at the point of a gun, amen?? That's a main reason why the American church has declined. They don't seem to realize that you can't force people to go to heaven--if there were people in heaven who didn't want to be there, it wouldn't be very heavenly for them! The kingdom of God is only for those who seek it.
 
Upvote 0
T

The Bellman

Guest
I agree with much of what you said, but this paragraph:
You'll never hear politicians say, "I accept salvation from Jesus Christ" because they'd be impeached if they said so--the Constitution forbids them to accept such a gift. You'll never hear politicians say, "I grant Jesus Christ the title of Lord." They're not allowed, having sworn to uphold the Constitution. Thus, they are NOT Christians. If you don't confess Jesus as Lord and King and accept His gift to you, you are NOT a Christian.
is just nonsensical. There is nothing that prevents a US politician saying both "I accept salvation from Jesus Christ" and "I grant Jesus Christ the title of Lord." No violation of any law or mandate, including the Constitution.
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
Article 1, Section 9...
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.


So the United States as a federal corporation cannot declare Jesus to be King. An individual politician, maybe could get away with it. (But it's funny, you'll hear them talk about God a lot, when they want to get religious votes, yet you rarely hear them mention the name Jesus--they're SCARED of that name! They're scared He'll come back and rid the planet of secular governments, and then they'll be out of a job.)

It clearly indicates, however, that any person holding office cannot accept the gift of salvation from Christ. Nor can they accept the kingship that being joint heirs with Jesus implies. Rev 1, for he has made us kings and priests....
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

christalee4

Senior Veteran
Apr 11, 2005
3,252
323
✟5,083.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Here are several versions, albeit invented by various individuals and groups, who believe in, allegedly, in a Christian government:

http://www.uschristianflag.com/product_1.htm

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/chrflag.html

Plus there are Presbyterian, Methodist, Vatican, and various other Christian-themed flags.

Why focus on a government-entity themed flag that attempts to nationalize a religion? Do we want to be like the Saudis, or other theocratic Muslim countries who have nationalized their religion?
 
Upvote 0
T

The Bellman

Guest
Article 1, Section 9...
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

So the United States as a federal corporation cannot declare Jesus to be King. An individual politician, maybe could get away with it.
Of course they could "get away" with it. It wouldn't even be hard. It wouldn't remotely violate any laws or any part of the Constitution.

(But it's funny, you'll hear them talk about God a lot, when they want to get religious votes, yet you rarely hear them mention the name Jesus--they're SCARED of that name! They're scared He'll come back and rid the planet of secular governments, and then they'll be out of a job.)
What nonsense. They're not elected to preach; they're elected to govern. Their job isn't to talk about their religious beliefs. Some may well do so at some times, but that's not what they were hired for.

It clearly indicates, however, that any person holding office cannot accept the gift of salvation from Christ. Nor can they accept the kingship that being joint heirs with Jesus implies. Rev 1, for he has made us kings and priests....
This is just rubbish. Jesus isn't a king, prince, or foreign state. He's a deity. Get off this idea, it's just looking stupid.
 
Upvote 0
M

maelstrom

Guest
Jesus isn't a king? That's what the whole subject is all about--either Jesus is ruler of the Earth, or the federal government is. Either we should obey God's commandments, or we should make up our own set of rules (or elect representatives to make up those rules for us). But those in favor of making up our own set of rules are not Christians.

I say Jesus *is* my King, and thus I personally strive to follow the commandments my Lord has given me. Others can disagree if they want, but they are of the antichrist and will not inherit eternal life, if the Bible is to be believed. All those who pledge their allegiance to the USA are going to be sorely disappointed when they realize that their beloved politicians cannot resurrect them from the dead.
 
Upvote 0
T

The Bellman

Guest
Jesus isn't a king? That's what the whole subject is all about--either Jesus is ruler of the Earth, or the federal government is. Either we should obey God's commandments, or we should make up our own set of rules (or elect representatives to make up those rules for us). But those in favor of making up our own set of rules are not Christians.
No, he's not a king. Calling him that - as many do - is not meant to be literal. It is meant to denote his rulership over the universe. Just as when my wife says I am "king of her heart" she doesn't really mean I'm a king.

I say Jesus *is* my King, and thus I personally strive to follow the commandments my Lord has given me. Others can disagree if they want, but they are of the antichrist and will not inherit eternal life, if the Bible is to be believed. All those who pledge their allegiance to the USA are going to be sorely disappointed when they realize that their beloved politicians cannot resurrect them from the dead.
This is just stupid. Whether or not pledging allegiance to the USA is a good idea, nobody will be surprised when they realise that politicians can't resurrect them from the dead.

And can you point out a single thing from the bible that indicates we shouldn't follow earthly rulers and the rules they make? No. Because the bible actually specifically supports the notion of earthly rulers who we follow.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
M

maelstrom

Guest
Revelation 18:4-5 indicates that those who participate in an evil nation will be held accountable for its sins.

The Bible doesn't address the issue of democracy because Rome was an empire, not a democracy at the time. But government by the people means that if the government does something bad, the people share the guilt for it.

Paul could be a Roman citizen because citizenship of Rome was by birth and didn't imply participation or endorsement of the government, so long as he didn't condone or help enforce any policies of Caesar that went against God's commandments. The only people to blame for Caesar's evils were Caesar and his soldiers. But in America, a democratic republic, it's totally different--everyone who participates is partially to blame for everything the government does.

The authors of the New Testament certainly did not condone Caesar's government--many of them got killed by it!!

The Bible says clearly that we should not resist secular governments. But it says nothing to indicate that we should participate in them. Instead, it says the opposite: Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's! In other words, let the United States have its dollars. Don't even bother pursuing them in the first place--if Christians stopped voting and didn't use Federal Reserve Notes as currency, they wouldn't have to pay taxes (since the government can't take dollars from people who don't have dollars), and they wouldn't be participating in evil. Plus, non-Christians would stop being mad at Christians for using the government to force their morality on sinners, and it would be easier to witness to them.

Ultimately, what Jesus advocated most passionately was for us to love each other. If we take part in tyrannical governments and allow tyranny to exist on the earth, how can we claim to love our neighbors? All the bloodshed of modern history could have been prevented, if we would have obeyed God rather than men, like the Bible says. If only we would obey that commandment of love for each other, instead of making up our own stupid laws and putting each other in prison for breaking them and trying to force our opinions on each other...

So many atrocities in the world have been funded by US dollars. Most of the tyranny and socialism that the government claimed to oppose were financied by the American banks, which would never have been possible if it weren't for the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. Most people aren't aware of it because they don't study modern history (or get a perverted, false view of it from their establishment colleges and revisionist textbooks). It can't possibly be right to support evil!

The only solution for Christians is non-resistance and non-participation. We are not of the world--we are of the kingdom of God, and we are sent into the world only as ambassadors. The prince of the world is Satan, who has been given authority to do what he will but whose will is not righteous--anyone who follows him will be bound along with him during the millennium and judged along with him at the final judgment. It needs be that offences come, but woe to those by whom they come!

Few churches teach that people will be held accountable for how their actions impact the world; the church leaders WANT people to be worldly, to go out and get dollars so that they can bring them back to the church leaders, who then buy their prostitutes or mansions or whatever it is they do with church funds. The American church is involved in secular politics, not because Jesus said we should be, but merely because it is led by very evil men who have tremendous lust for power over others.

Jesus is going to come back literally to reign over the Earth as a king, and all the governments who oppose that kingdom will be struck down--those who don't accept Christ will be killed and fed to the birds (Revelation 19:17-21).

God's will is for us to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. "All who are not with me are against me." Anytime we promote an alternate kingdom, we are being sinful because we are wasting the time we could be spending to promote the true kingdom, Christ's kingdom. James 4:4 says that friends of the world are enemies of God.
 
Upvote 0

gengwall

Senior Veteran
Feb 16, 2006
5,003
408
MN
✟14,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Revelation 18:4-5 indicates that those who participate in an evil nation will be held accountable for its sins.

The Bible doesn't address the issue of democracy because Rome was an empire, not a democracy at the time. But government by the people means that if the government does something bad, the people share the guilt for it.

Paul could be a Roman citizen because citizenship of Rome was by birth and didn't imply participation or endorsement of the government, so long as he didn't condone or help enforce any policies of Caesar that went against God's commandments. The only people to blame for Caesar's evils were Caesar and his soldiers. But in America, a democratic republic, it's totally different--everyone who participates is partially to blame for everything the government does.

The authors of the New Testament certainly did not condone Caesar's government--many of them got killed by it!!

The Bible says clearly that we should not resist secular governments. But it says nothing to indicate that we should participate in them. Instead, it says the opposite: Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's! In other words, let the United States have its dollars. Don't even bother pursuing them in the first place--if Christians stopped voting and didn't use Federal Reserve Notes as currency, they wouldn't have to pay taxes (since the government can't take dollars from people who don't have dollars), and they wouldn't be participating in evil. Plus, non-Christians would stop being mad at Christians for using the government to force their morality on sinners, and it would be easier to witness to them.

Ultimately, what Jesus advocated most passionately was for us to love each other. If we take part in tyrannical governments and allow tyranny to exist on the earth, how can we claim to love our neighbors? All the bloodshed of modern history could have been prevented, if we would have obeyed God rather than men, like the Bible says. If only we would obey that commandment of love for each other, instead of making up our own stupid laws and putting each other in prison for breaking them and trying to force our opinions on each other...

So many atrocities in the world have been funded by US dollars. Most of the tyranny and socialism that the government claimed to oppose were financied by the American banks, which would never have been possible if it weren't for the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. Most people aren't aware of it because they don't study modern history (or get a perverted, false view of it from their establishment colleges and revisionist textbooks). It can't possibly be right to support evil!

The only solution for Christians is non-resistance and non-participation. We are not of the world--we are of the kingdom of God, and we are sent into the world only as ambassadors. The prince of the world is Satan, who has been given authority to do what he will but whose will is not righteous--anyone who follows him will be bound along with him during the millennium and judged along with him at the final judgment. It needs be that offences come, but woe to those by whom they come!

Few churches teach that people will be held accountable for how their actions impact the world; the church leaders WANT people to be worldly, to go out and get dollars so that they can bring them back to the church leaders, who then buy their prostitutes or mansions or whatever it is they do with church funds. The American church is involved in secular politics, not because Jesus said we should be, but merely because it is led by very evil men who have tremendous lust for power over others.

Jesus is going to come back literally to reign over the Earth as a king, and all the governments who oppose that kingdom will be struck down--those who don't accept Christ will be killed and fed to the birds (Revelation 19:17-21).

God's will is for us to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. "All who are not with me are against me." Anytime we promote an alternate kingdom, we are being sinful because we are wasting the time we could be spending to promote the true kingdom, Christ's kingdom. James 4:4 says that friends of the world are enemies of God.
So, I take it that saying the pledge of allegiance to the American flag in a church service like I experienced in IA would have set a few alarms off in you, yes?
 
  • Like
Reactions: christalee4
Upvote 0

Flynmonkie

The First Official FrankenMonkie ;)
Feb 23, 2004
3,803
238
Home of Harry Truman - Missouri
Visit site
✟20,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
We used to pledge allegiance to the US flag and the Christian flag every day in my Christian school growing up.

Lessee if I remember it right.

I pledge allegiance
to the Christian flag
And to the gospel
for which it stands
One Savior
crucified,
risen,
and coming again,
with life and liberty
for all who believe.

It really is kind of weird, in retrospect. This sort of thing has left me with a lifetime non-interest in dwelling too much on symbol as opposed to reality in religious practice.

That is really creepy? I have never heard this, and I thought my school was the worst in extremist there is!:scratch:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums