"The Myth of a Christian Nation" vs. "For God and Country"

gengwall

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I have had two extrodinary yet opposing experiences in the last couple of weeks which prompt me to post this for discussion.

Starting with the more recent. Over the weekend we attended a Baptist church in IA while visiting our inlaws. Being a national holiday, there was a slight hint of patriotism in the air (and, apparently, on the church's agenda). During the opening prayer, amongst the obligatory prayers for our leaders, the troops, etc., the pastor made a strange declaration (strange in it's content and that it was part of the prayer.) He declared with certainty that our nation was founded on the Word of God. I quickly reviewed the Preamble to the Constitution in my head and tried to picture Jesus claiming any of it. I must admit, I am still want to find any evidence within either the Word of God or the various documents and principals of our American government to support such a contention. Maybe someone out there can help me understand exactly what part of the Word of God our country was founded on and where such foundation is expressed in the Constitution or the law.

But that was just the beginning of my discomfort. What happened next truly got me squirming in my seat. After the prayer, we proceeded to pledge allegiance to BOTH the American flag and the Christian flag. Since when do God's people, at least while gathered in God's house to worship God, pledge allegiance, first of all, to symbols, and second of all, to the secular symbol of some worldly kingdom? Talk about serving two masters.

Well, that brings me to the second experience, which had happened prior to this service, but which illuminated for me why such goings on should make me uneasy. A week prior to that I had finished reading Greg Boyd's book "The Myth of a Christian Nation". In that book, Pastor Boyd (who lost 20% of his congregation when he preached on these issues), proposes that not only is it inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, it is damaging to the true mission of the Church. I can't think of a more stark illustration of the dangers he expresses than what I observed in that little IA church.

So, finally, to the point of discussion. What is the mission of the Church (big "C") and what impact does it have on that mission when Christians ally themselves to flags and countries and try to force people to comply with God and His Word through use of the sword (politics, government, and the law) rather than show them God and His Word through the loving, self-sacrificial power of the cross?
 

gengwall

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The Founding Fathers used many Christian ideas, but American law is not taken from scripture. The Christian flag? That's a little cuckoo, IMHO. It's like "The Nation of Islam". Geez.
I must admit, I do not know the pledge to the Christian flag by heart. But I don't feel so bad. I can't imagine Jesus caring too much for such a pledge.
 
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Ringo84

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I have had two extrodinary yet opposing experiences in the last couple of weeks which prompt me to post this for discussion.

Starting with the more recent. Over the weekend we attended a Baptist church in IA while visiting our inlaws. Being a national holiday, there was a slight hint of patriotism in the air (and, apparently, on the church's agenda). During the opening prayer, amongst the obligatory prayers for our leaders, the troops, etc., the pastor made a strange declaration (strange in it's content and that it was part of the prayer.) He declared with certainty that our nation was founded on the Word of God. I quickly reviewed the Preamble to the Constitution in my head and tried to picture Jesus claiming any of it. I must admit, I am still want to find any evidence within either the Word of God or the various documents and principals of our American government to support such a contention. Maybe someone out there can help me understand exactly what part of the Word of God our country was founded on and where such foundation is expressed in the Constitution or the law.

But that was just the beginning of my discomfort. What happened next truly got me squirming in my seat. After the prayer, we proceeded to pledge allegiance to BOTH the American flag and the Christian flag. Since when do God's people, at least while gathered in God's house to worship God, pledge allegiance, first of all, to symbols, and second of all, to the secular symbol of some worldly kingdom? Talk about serving two masters.

Well, that brings me to the second experience, which had happened prior to this service, but which illuminated for me why such goings on should make me uneasy. A week prior to that I had finished reading Greg Boyd's book "The Myth of a Christian Nation". In that book, Pastor Boyd (who lost 20% of his congregation when he preached on these issues), proposes that not only is it inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, it is damaging to the true mission of the Church. I can't think of a more stark illustration of the dangers he expresses than what I observed in that little IA church.

So, finally, to the point of discussion. What is the mission of the Church (big "C") and what impact does it have on that mission when Christians ally themselves to flags and countries and try to force people to comply with God and His Word through use of the sword (politics, government, and the law) rather than show them God and His Word through the loving, self-sacrificial power of the cross?
Being a national holiday, there was a slight hint of patriotism in the air (and, apparently, on the church's agenda).

There are few things in this world that are worse than 'God and country', 'wrap-the-Bible-in-the-flag' patriotism. Patriotism is fine; it's patriotism as worship I absolutely abhor.

He declared with certainty that our nation was founded on the Word of God. I quickly reviewed the Preamble to the Constitution in my head and pondered Jesus claiming any of it. I must admit, I am still want to find any evidence within either the Word of God or the various documents and principals of our American government to support such a contention. Maybe someone out there can help me understand exactly what part of the WOrd of God our country was founded on and where such foundation is expressed in the Constitution.

The pastor was completely wrong. This nation is founded neither on Christianity nor on the Bible. The religious beliefs that are so often trotted out in support of this notion are the expressions of the founders' personal beliefs - not, as they would claim, proof that this is a "Christian nation".

Moreover, just because the Constitution shares some of the same beliefs about freedom as the Bible does not mean that the Constitution was founded on the word of God. Some of my talking points may match the talking points of the Republican party. Does that mean that my beliefs are founded from the Republican party? No; it means that some of my beliefs regarding certain issues happen to match those of the Republican party.

But that was just the beginning of my discomfort. What happened next truly got me squirming in my seat. After the prayer, we proceeded to pledge allegiance to BOTH the American flag and the Christian flag. Since when do God's while gathered in God's house people pledge allegiance, first of all, to symbols, and second of all, to the secular symbol of some worldly kingdom? Talk about serving two masters.

I'm not sure about that one. I'll think on it for a while.

Well, that brings me to the second experience, which had happened prior to this service, but which illuminated for me why such goings on should make me uneasy. A week prior to that I had finished reading Greg Boyd's book "The Myth of a Christian Nation". In that book, Pastor Boyd (who lost 20% of his congregation when he preached on these issues), proposes that not only is it inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, it is damaging to the true mission of the Church. I can't think of a more stark illustration of the dangers he expresses than what I observed in that little IA church.

I disagree that it's inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, because that's civic involvement in the direction of one's country. However, I can see the pastor's point that sometimes Christians get too involved in politics, thinking that they have the right to impose their views on others. It is, like most things in life, a question of balance.

The pastor is right about this country's status as a "Christian nation".
Ringo
 
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Vylo

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The nation was founded by a large percentage of Christian, not upon Christianity, and not exclusively for Christianity or Christian ideals. If you look at what many of the founding fathers said, like Washington, what matter was being a good citizen. While certainly many of not most of them would have liked everyone to be Christian, they weren't going to shove it down people's throats.
 
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Ringo84

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The nation was founded by a large percentage of Christian, not upon Christianity, and not exclusively for Christianity or Christian ideals. If you look at what many of the founding fathers said, like Washington, what matter was being a good citizen. While certainly many of not most of them would have liked everyone to be Christian, they weren't going to shove it down people's throats.
Exactly. The founders' religious beliefs (as well as those of the populace) were their own. They did not intend for those beliefs to become law in this country. Don't ever believe anyone that tries to say that; they're either lying deliberately or attempting to mislead people about the true nature of our country because of some agenda. The people who so publicly declare this to be a nation founded on Christian principles would not be able to defend those arguments very well in a real debate.

Considering how diverse this country has become, it's probably not even true anymore that this is a predominantly Christian country.
Ringo
 
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gengwall

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I disagree that it's inappropriate for Christians to get involved in politics, because that's civic involvement in the direction of one's country. However, I can see the pastor's point that sometimes Christians get too involved in politics, thinking that they have the right to impose their views on others. It is, like most things in life, a question of balance.
Boyd's point is not to prevent people from engaging in the political process, it is that they should not attempt to "marry" their political participation with their citizenship in the Kingdom of God. Basically, we are "in this world", so we should contribute to society and we are required to follow our leaders and the laws, but we are "not of this world", so we shouldn't mistake such societal or cultural participation with any Godly mission or calling. What we are called to do as citizens in the Kingdom of God, through the example of Jesus, is radically different and incompatible with any agenda or function within any kingdom of the world.
 
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Vylo

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Boyd's point is not to prevent people from engaging in the political process, it is that they should not attempt to "marry" their political participation with their citizenship in the Kingdom of God. Basically, we are "in this world", so we should contribute to society and we are required to follow our leaders and the laws, but we are "not of this world", so we shouldn't mistake such societal or cultural participation with any Godly mission or calling. What we are called to do as citizens in the Kingdom of God, through the example of Jesus, is radically different and incompatible with any agenda or function within any kingdom of the world.
Christians should ALWAYS be involved in politics. Not being involved at all would mean you would have to rely on the benevolence of the groups participating to not oppress or persecute you, and the likelyhood of that lasting for a significant time probably isn't too good.
 
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Ringo84

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Boyd's point is not to prevent people from engaging in the political process, it is that they should not attempt to "marry" their political participation with their citizenship in the Kingdom of God. Basically, we are "in this world", so we should contribute to society and we are required to follow our leaders and the laws, but we are "not of this world", so we shouldn't mistake such societal or cultural participation with any Godly mission or calling. What we are called to do as citizens in the Kingdom of God, through the example of Jesus, is radically different and incompatible with any agenda or function within any kingdom of the world.
I absolutely agree, now that I better understand his argument. The duties of being a United States citizen are much different than those of being a Christian.

I'm glad there are some outspoken Christians out there that don't believe that patriotic duties equate to religious duties.
Ringo
 
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christalee4

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It's the so called "Christian flag" thing that I have a problem with.

We are not worshipping a Christian icon in terms of a flag.

We love Jesus, we love God.

What is the matter with these people, who posit a flapping iconic flag that represents their system of worship? Does not God spring from higher than that that mountain?
 
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GraceLikeRainFallsDown

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It's the so called "Christian flag" thing that I have a problem with.

We are not worshipping a Christian icon in terms of a flag.

We love Jesus, we love God.

What is the matter with these people, who posit a flapping iconic flag that represents their system of worship? Does not God spring from higher than that that mountain?
I had not heard of the Pledge to the Christian Flag until my daughter attended a Christian school and Awana.

I thought it was odd. I did not take it as worshipping the flag though. It think it is a way for people to publicly pledge unity with Christians and Jesus.

I am not a fan of it.

My church does not do it during service. I have been to many churches and nvever heard it during service. That is unusual.

I have seen the flag in the classrooms though so I do not know if they do it during Sunday School. I will have to ask my daughter and have her ask the teacher what the point of it is if they do do it.
 
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Joykins

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We used to pledge allegiance to the US flag and the Christian flag every day in my Christian school growing up.

Lessee if I remember it right.

I pledge allegiance
to the Christian flag
And to the gospel
for which it stands
One Savior
crucified,
risen,
and coming again,
with life and liberty
for all who believe.

It really is kind of weird, in retrospect. This sort of thing has left me with a lifetime non-interest in dwelling too much on symbol as opposed to reality in religious practice.
 
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T

The Bellman

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We used to pledge allegiance to the US flag and the Christian flag every day in my Christian school growing up.

Lessee if I remember it right.

I pledge allegiance
to the Christian flag
And to the gospel
for which it stands
One Savior
crucified,
risen,
and coming again,
with life and liberty
for all who believe.

It really is kind of weird, in retrospect. This sort of thing has left me with a lifetime non-interest in dwelling too much on symbol as opposed to reality in religious practice.
Are you serious? That is the funniest and at the same time most stupid thing I ever heard. A 'Christian flag' was stupid enough, but a 'pledge of allegiance' ripped straight off the US Pledge? That is so laughable it's sickening.

My opinion of "American Christianity" (not all American Christians, mind you, but the organisation which promotes such idiocy) just descended to subterranean levels.
 
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Joykins

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That is just soooo stupid. Where again in the bible did Jesus mention his flag?

Unbelievable.

Maybe in one of the lost gospels?

Lucas 17:128 Thou art Peter. Upon this rock I will plant my flag, and all the little ones shall pledge their troth to it. :p
 
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This along with mention in the Declaration of Independence national days of prayer,a senate chaplin. Our money stamped with "in God we trust" putting our hand on the Bible. That all our older colleges were established in christian belief.

If we go down the road of taking religion out of government,we will be impoverished spiritually. The fact remains that this country has 82% of its people professing to be christians.

The danger is watering down the message of the gospel. As long as the message is true this country will be stronger.
 
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gengwall

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This along with mention in the Declaration of Independence national days of prayer,a senate chaplin. Our money stamped with "in God we trust" putting our hand on the Bible. That all our older colleges were established in christian belief.

If we go down the road of taking religion out of government,we will be impoverished spiritually. The fact remains that this country has 82% of its people professing to be christians.

The danger is watering down the message of the gospel. As long as the message is true this country will be stronger.
But Jesus refrained from inserting religion into politics. He refused to get caught up in the political games the religious leaders, and even Pilate, wanted to play. His kingdom is "not of this world". I would argue that we are impoverished spiritually by intertwining religion with the government, because it detracts from our true calling and forces us to, as Boyd puts it, "drop the cross to pick up the sword." In reality, ANY kingdom of this world is incompatible with the Kingdom of God as manifested in Jesus and therefore any attempt at connecting those two incompatible entitites waters down both of them. IMO.
 
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