The Mystery of the Church Age

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

Thank you for explaining a bit more of why you think as you do.

So for clarity could you please share which world rulers are represented by the components of the Great Image of Dan. 2.

And then also who are the kingdoms represented by the 4 beasts.

regards, Marilyn.

The 4 Beasts I see are a traditional interpretation: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The 4th Kingdom, Rome, breaks up into 10 states, ultimately dominated by one King, the "Man of Sin." He leads a major apostasy in the world against God and against Christianity. The "Son of Man" comes to destroy him so as to set up God's Kingdom on earth.

 

[RandyPNW]

So you do not regard the Body of Christ as separate from the nation Israel?

The Church is made up of *all* ethnicities. These ethnicities often form into nation-states, although some states, like the U.S., include a melting pot of ethnicities.

Israel is both a nation and an ethnicity, but was created to be a nation-state. It was created to be a theocracy, with God's Law being the common rule over all the people.

Israel was created to merely be a precursor and model for many other nations doing the same. Obviously, nations under God, like Israel and "Christian nations," do not always remain godly nations.

And so, it may appear to you that there never was an Israel nor a "Christian nation." But I believe not only have they been "godly nations" for a time, but I believe they will also come to a greater fulfillment at the coming of Christ in the Millennium.

 

[Thuycidides]

Many would sorely disagree with the doctrine of this video but I'm presenting it that at least you know how I perceive the gospel teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe you are already aware of dispensationalism, and reject it with a passion, but I still think you might at least get some insight as to my (and others') viewpoint, in order to more specifically form your counter-points.
The study's main thrust are 3 Pauline passages clearly stating that the church, and consequently, the church-age, were an unrevealed mystery in the days of Christ on earth, and that therefore, Christ's teachings in the gospels were not church-age teachings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that nothing in the gospels applies to us; but when it comes to doctrines affecting soteriology (salvation) then we better be careful about going back to the gospels - especially since the gospels are before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
It's just 18 minutes, so if possible, please listen to the whole thing.

Your point is correct pertaining to law of God.

The law of Moses was changed to the law of Christ with the old covenant being changed to the new.

Once Jesus died on the cross, at that very moment, the Old Covenant was done away with, along with the Levitical priesthood and the Law of Moses, and the New Covenant was brought in, along with the priesthood of Jesus and the law of Christ.

So, the 'carefulness' is about not preaching for law to Christians anything written before His crucifixion on the cross.

The law of Christ for all Christians today is written in the Scriptures following the death of Christ in each verse of the 4 Gospels.

 

[Marilyn C]

The 4 Beasts I see are a traditional interpretation: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The 4th Kingdom, Rome, breaks up into 10 states, ultimately dominated by one King, the "Man of Sin." He leads a major apostasy in the world against God and against Christianity. The "Son of Man" comes to destroy him so as to set up God's Kingdom on earth.

Hi Randy,

Scripture tells us that the first 4 parts of the Great Image are, (as you rightly said) Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. However, the `feet and toes,` kingdom of 10 is not the broken down Roman empire. God judged that, as well as the other world rulers and they could not rise again.

In Dan. 7 we see a description of that last kingdom. (Dan. 7: 23 & 24) And the 10, are 10 kings of the final kingdom. I think you may mean this. And then these kings/leaders are dominated by the Man of Sin. So we agree there.

However where do you read that they are against Christianity?

So are you saying this is yet future?

Marilyn.

 

[Guojing]

The Church is made up of *all* ethnicities. These ethnicities often form into nation-states, although some states, like the U.S., include a melting pot of ethnicities.

Israel is both a nation and an ethnicity, but was created to be a nation-state. It was created to be a theocracy, with God's Law being the common rule over all the people.

Israel was created to merely be a precursor and model for many other nations doing the same. Obviously, nations under God, like Israel and "Christian nations," do not always remain godly nations.

And so, it may appear to you that there never was an Israel nor a "Christian nation." But I believe not only have they been "godly nations" for a time, but I believe they will also come to a greater fulfillment at the coming of Christ in the Millennium.

May I clarify, is your answer a yes or a no to my question?

 

[RandyPNW]

May I clarify, is your answer a yes or a no to my question?

You don't even have to read between the lines. You just have to read what I wrote.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

Scripture tells us that the first 4 parts of the Great Image are, (as you rightly said) Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. However, the `feet and toes,` kingdom of 10 is not the broken down Roman empire. God judged that, as well as the other world rulers and they could not rise again.

In Dan. 7 we see a description of that last kingdom. (Dan. 7: 23 & 24) And the 10, are 10 kings of the final kingdom. I think you may mean this. And then these kings/leaders are dominated by the Man of Sin. So we agree there.

However where do you read that they are against Christianity?

So are you saying this is yet future?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, I feel that the 10 kings emerge out of the old Roman Empire, because the *last* Beast represents the final empire in this present age. Rome may have fallen in 476 AD, but it did not stop being a kingdom, nor did the Eastern kingdom stop existing as an empire. Later, the Kingdom in Italy reemerged as an empire of sorts when the Pope crowned Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor.

In fact, Europe continued in its "imperial" ways, with a variety of European countries taking the reins at different times, including France, Germany, Spain, and Austria. The same happened in the East, with Russia ultimately claiming "imperial" status. "Czar" even means "Caesar!"

The "Apostasy" Paul refers to in 2 Thes 2.3 is the Little Horn, who together with his 10 state confederation conspires to move Europe and the world farther away from God and true Christianity. I have no doubt that a false form of Christianity will persist to the end. The False Prophet has "2 horns like a lamb." He may control the 2 halves of the former Holy Roman Empire.

Here we read about the "Apostasy" in Dan 7. It is a "boasting" against God, and a persecution of God's People...

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully....
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom."

This Apostasy has gradually been emerging since the Middle Ages, and from the Renaissance period, when the Catholic Church began to marry together with Humanism. Christian Theologians mixed with the old pagan philosophers, and out of this eventually emerged liberal theology in the modern world. After the philosophes of the Enlightenment made their mark in the 18th century, a full scale apostasy had begun.

Out of rationalism came a host of idealistic philosophies, centering the world on either communism or democracy. Both were idolatrous and godless. We think of democracy as "Christian" today, but it is actually pluralistic in religious advocacy, and as such, thoroughly idolatrous.

These things are leading up to a complete collapse of Christian Civilization in the West and in the world. And yes, it is happening even now!

The end will be the Antichrist and his European coalition pushing full blown satanism, not necessarily like the occult in religion, but definitely occultic in spirit. It may even pretend, in some areas, to be Christian.

But I think this is a complete turn away from true Christianity. That is when Christ comes back, after Antichrist has ruled for 3.5 years, and probably a short time after that, as the world gathers for Armageddon.

 

[Guojing]

You don't even have to read between the lines. You just have to read what I wrote.

That is why I am asking because I don't see a clear yes or no in your post.

but if you don't wish to clarify, I am fine too.

 

[Thuycidides]

Hi Randy,

Scripture tells us that the first 4 parts of the Great Image are, (as you rightly said) Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. However, the `feet and toes,` kingdom of 10 is not the broken down Roman empire. God judged that, as well as the other world rulers and they could not rise again.

In Dan. 7 we see a description of that last kingdom. (Dan. 7: 23 & 24) And the 10, are 10 kings of the final kingdom. I think you may mean this. And then these kings/leaders are dominated by the Man of Sin. So we agree there.

However where do you read that they are against Christianity?

So are you saying this is yet future?

Marilyn.

"However where do you read that they are against Christianity?"

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast...These shall make war with the Lamb."

 

[RandyPNW]

That is why I am asking because I don't see a clear yes or no in your post.

but if you don't wish to clarify, I am fine too.

Right, I was pretty clear, and don't wish to multiply words.

 

[Guojing]

Right, I was pretty clear, and don't wish to multiply words.

If you don't answer a yes or no question, with either a yes or no, and can still claim you are "pretty clear", you must have a different standard of clarity

 

[RandyPNW]

If you don't answer a yes or no question, with either a yes or no, and can still claim you are "pretty clear", you must have a different standard of clarity

Sorry, I've forgotten the question. I suppose I thought you weren't serious. All I found was something you asked about the Body of Christ. To me, Christians are the Body of Christ is the Church. Is that what you were asking?

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, I've forgotten the question. I suppose I thought you weren't serious. All I found was something you asked about the Body of Christ. To me, Christians are the Body of Christ is the Church. Is that what you were asking?

Here is the yes or no question The Mystery of the Church Age

 

[RandyPNW]

Here is the yes or no question The Mystery of the Church Age

So you do not regard the Body of Christ as separate from the nation Israel?

I see. Yes, I think that only part of national Israel is part of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is, by definition, an international body of Christians consisting of believers in every nation, including Israel. So the body of believers in Israel would qualify as being part of the Body of Christ.

I think there is confusion sometimes when we here that God called the whole nation, or when we hear that the whole nation will get saved. There is a basic confusion between two distinct definitions of "salvation."

Salvation is a term that encompasses both material and spiritual salvation. In reconstituting the whole nation of Israel from annihilation or from division, we have material salvation.

Inasmuch as God requires spiritual salvation, as well, Israel's full national restoration will include spiritual salvation, consisting of believers who have accepted Christ as their Savior.

The whole nation, also, will adopt a Christian Constitution. And this will ensure that the nation no longer comes under a curse for idolatry, or for apostasy. Conformity to the laws of God will keep the entire nation in conformity with God's new covenant of Christianity, and will ensure peace and security from that time on. This will, I believe, take place in the Millennial Age, when Satan is bound, and after Antichrist is defeated.

But the most important element in all this is spiritual salvation, without which nobody will have eternal life. God has promised that the nation would come to a place where it would never fall again, and that will take place in the Millennium. But it is even more important tjat individuals receive Christ for eternal life--not just accept a Christian Constitution for their nation.

When God called the whole nation of Israel, He put the whole nation under His covenant, under His laws, and under His governance. But God was under no illusion that every individual would embrace Him for personal salvation, nor did He harbor any illusion that the nation would continue faithful under the covenant of Law forever.

And so, God always planned to deal with Israel as a nation, but would use the Law as a temporary covenant to show the need for individual salvation through Christ.

Still, God never abandoned His promise to restore the nation, because in saving individuals, and in wanting to bless them, He can only fully bless them if the community as a whole is blessed. Thus, God saves societies and nations, if only in the ages of mortality. And I believe He will do this because He has promised to do it.

 

[Guojing]

So you do not regard the Body of Christ as separate from the nation Israel?

I see. Yes, I think that only part of national Israel is part of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is, by definition, an international body of Christians consisting of believers in every nation, including Israel. So the body of believers in Israel would qualify as being part of the Body of Christ.

I think there is confusion sometimes when we here that God called the whole nation, or when we hear that the whole nation will get saved. There is a basic confusion between two distinct definitions of "salvation."

Salvation is a term that encompasses both material and spiritual salvation. In reconstituting the whole nation of Israel from annihilation or from division, we have material salvation.

Inasmuch as God requires spiritual salvation, as well, Israel's full national restoration will include spiritual salvation, consisting of believers who have accepted Christ as their Savior.

The whole nation, also, will adopt a Christian Constitution. And this will ensure that the nation no longer comes under a curse for idolatry, or for apostasy. Conformity to the laws of God will keep the entire nation in conformity with God's new covenant of Christianity, and will ensure peace and security from that time on. This will, I believe, take place in the Millennial Age, when Satan is bound, and after Antichrist is defeated.

But the most important element in all this is spiritual salvation, without which nobody will have eternal life. God has promised that the nation would come to a place where it would never fall again, and that will take place in the Millennium. But it is even more important tjat individuals receive Christ for eternal life--not just accept a Christian Constitution for their nation.

When God called the whole nation of Israel, He put the whole nation under His covenant, under His laws, and under His governance. But God was under no illusion that every individual would embrace Him for personal salvation, nor did He harbor any illusion that the nation would continue faithful under the covenant of Law forever.

And so, God always planned to deal with Israel as a nation, but would use the Law as a temporary covenant to show the need for individual salvation through Christ.

Still, God never abandoned His promise to restore the nation, because in saving individuals, and in wanting to bless them, He can only fully bless them if the community as a whole is blessed. Thus, God saves societies and nations, if only in the ages of mortality. And I believe He will do this because He has promised to do it.

I see, thanks for giving a clear answer.

Yes, I saw in the other thread about the Olivet discourse, that you appear to be subscribe to "expansion theology", so I can understand what you are holding as your core beliefs.

 

[RandyPNW]

I see, thanks for giving a clear answer.

Yes, I saw in the other thread about the Olivet discourse, that you appear to be subscribe to "expansion theology", so I can understand what you are holding as your core beliefs.

Alright, sorry I misjudged your intentions. When I come onto a new forum, I never know what I'll get!

 

[Guojing]

Alright, sorry I misjudged your intentions. When I come onto a new forum, I never know what I'll get!

Yeah, nowadays I encounter a lot of hostile people in forums too.

For me, I always try to respond in a cordial manner as much as I can, but still, people who disagree with my beliefs can be rather aggressive in their response =)

 

[Thuycidides]

I see, thanks for giving a clear answer.

Yes, I saw in the other thread about the Olivet discourse, that you appear to be subscribe to "expansion theology", so I can understand what you are holding as your core beliefs.

Expansion theology?

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn, I feel that the 10 kings emerge out of the old Roman Empire, because the *last* Beast represents the final empire in this present age. Rome may have fallen in 476 AD, but it did not stop being a kingdom, nor did the Eastern kingdom stop existing as an empire. Later, the Kingdom in Italy reemerged as an empire of sorts when the Pope crowned Charlemagne the Holy Roman Emperor.

.

Hi Randy,

I think you and others really need to look out your back door. There is NO Roman Empire ruling. We have the G7, G20 & UN, and who is in control of these?

1. Britain. (Lion) & America. (Eagle)
2. Russia. (Bear)
3. EU. (Leopard.

Look up wikipedia etc and see who is ruling in these world leadership gatherings.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

"However where do you read that they are against Christianity?"

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast...These shall make war with the Lamb."

Hi Thuycidides,

The Lord`s title `Lamb,` is only used in reference to Israel.

Marilyn.