The Mystery of the Church Age

[George Antonios]

Many would sorely disagree with the doctrine of this video but I'm presenting it that at least you know how I perceive the gospel teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe you are already aware of dispensationalism, and reject it with a passion, but I still think you might at least get some insight as to my (and others') viewpoint, in order to more specifically form your counter-points.
The study's main thrust are 3 Pauline passages clearly stating that the church, and consequently, the church-age, were an unrevealed mystery in the days of Christ on earth, and that therefore, Christ's teachings in the gospels were not church-age teachings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that nothing in the gospels applies to us; but when it comes to doctrines affecting soteriology (salvation) then we better be careful about going back to the gospels - especially since the gospels are before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
It's just 18 minutes, so if possible, please listen to the whole thing.

 

[Halbhh]

Many would sorely disagree with the doctrine of this video but I'm presenting it that at least you know how I perceive the gospel teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe you are already aware of dispensationalism, and reject it with a passion, but I still think you might at least get some insight as to my (and others') viewpoint, in order to more specifically form your counter-points.
The study's main thrust are 3 Pauline passages clearly stating that the church, and consequently, the church-age, were an unrevealed mystery in the days of Christ on earth, and that therefore, Christ's teachings in the gospels were not church-age teachings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that nothing in the gospels applies to us; but when it comes to doctrines affecting soteriology (salvation) then we better be careful about going back to the gospels - especially since the gospels are before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
It's just 18 minutes, so if possible, please listen to the whole thing.

From before the resurrection:

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:31 Context: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

And this chapter also shows additional things that clearly are about the future, including the Judgement to come:

Matthew 7 NIV

So, when we do read in the gospels, it becomes entirely clear, in a way no one could deny, that He is often talking of the future, including the Day of Judgement of all souls. He is giving us instructions, over and over, for all Christians, in the future.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

 

[trophy33]

when it comes to doctrines affecting soteriology (salvation) then we better be careful about going back to the gospels

Any example what is taught regarding soteriology outside of gospels and was not taught in gospels before?

 

[George Antonios]

From before the resurrection:

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:31 Context: "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

And this chapter also shows additional things that clearly are about the future, including the Judgement to come:

Matthew 7 NIV

So, when we do read in the gospels, it becomes entirely clear, in a way no one could deny, that He is often talking of the future, including the Day of Judgement of all souls. He is giving us instructions, over and over, for all Christians, in the future.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Sounds like you didn't listen to the video.

 

[George Antonios]

Any example what is taught regarding soteriology outside of gospels and was not taught in gospels before?

Yes, like salvation by grace without works.
That was not taught (although hinted at) in the gospels, that is Pauline doctrine for the church.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, like salvation by grace without works.
That was not taught (although hinted at) in the gospels, that is Pauline doctrine for the church.

"Who believes in me has eternal life".

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, like salvation by grace without works.
That was not taught (although hinted at) in the gospels, that is Pauline doctrine for the church.

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

------
Believe in Christ Jesus and trust His Words instead of the words of men.

Believe enough to begin to truly trust Him and want to hear all that He said for us to listen to in the gospel accounts, which He knew we would have -- at first by oral retelling and then eventually written down for us -- His Words.

 

[Nova2216]

Many would sorely disagree with the doctrine of this video but I'm presenting it that at least you know how I perceive the gospel teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe you are already aware of dispensationalism, and reject it with a passion, but I still think you might at least get some insight as to my (and others') viewpoint, in order to more specifically form your counter-points.
The study's main thrust are 3 Pauline passages clearly stating that the church, and consequently, the church-age, were an unrevealed mystery in the days of Christ on earth, and that therefore, Christ's teachings in the gospels were not church-age teachings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that nothing in the gospels applies to us; but when it comes to doctrines affecting soteriology (salvation) then we better be careful about going back to the gospels - especially since the gospels are before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
It's just 18 minutes, so if possible, please listen to the whole thing.

What about this?


The kingdom was established in the first century according to the following scriptures.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Note (Heb.8:6-13)

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (church = kingdom / Mt. 16:18,19)

Ac 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dream


Some were placed into the kingdom during the first century according to (Col. 1:13).

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


The Lords kingdom is not to come in the future, it was established in (Acts 2) according to the scriptures.

Note (Mark 9:1)

Mr 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The kingdom came with power in (Acts 2).

(Mark 9:1) is true or there are first century apostles walking the earth today who are 2000 yrs old.

 

[Guojing]

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

------
Believe in Christ Jesus and trust His Words instead of the words of men.

Believe enough to begin to truly trust Him and want to hear all that He said for us to listen to in the gospel accounts, which He knew we would have -- at first by oral retelling and then eventually written down for us -- His Words.

This is one of those favorite passages that are often misused by Christians who want to read Paul into the 4 gospels.

The works in John refers to signs and wonders, and those signs are to point Israel to believe that he is the messiah who was to come. (John 20:31)

It does not mean Israel only needed to believe in him, without having to follow the law, nor was it ever directed to us gentiles.

 

[Halbhh]

This is one of those favorite passages that are often misused by Christians who want to read Paul into the 4 gospels.

The works in John refers to signs and wonders, and those signs are to point Israel to believe that he is the messiah who was to come. (John 20:31)

It does not mean Israel only needed to believe in him, without having to follow the law, nor was it ever directed to us gentiles.

It's simply fact that Christ said the "work" that God wants from us is to simply believe in Him Whom God sent, Christ Himself.

(if a person wants to see that confirmed by commentaries, here are many:
John 6:29 Commentaries: Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.")

 

[Guojing]

It's simply fact that Christ said the "work" that God wants from us is to simply believe in Him Whom God sent, Christ Himself.

(if a person wants to see that confirmed by commentaries, here are many:
John 6:29 Commentaries: Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.")

As I said, you are seeing it like that is because you want to insert Paul into the 4 gospels.

There are many other passages where Jesus told Israel to follow the law of Moses.

 

[Halbhh]

As I said, you are seeing it like that is because you want to insert Paul into the 4 gospels.

There are many other passages where Jesus told Israel to follow the law of Moses.

If you think the commentaries are all wrong, it's usually a good moment to rethink.

 

[Guojing]

If you think the commentaries are all wrong, it's usually a good moment to rethink.

That is a fallacious argument, if everyone think 2+2=5, should I rethink it?

 

[Clare73]

This is one of those favorite passages that are often misused by Christians who want to read Paul into the 4 gospels.
The works in John refers to signs and wonders, and those signs are to point Israel to believe that he is the messiah who was to come. (John 20:31)
It does not mean Israel only needed to believe in him, without having to follow the law,

The works in John 6:27-29 are works of righteousness.
Jesus did not answer in terms of righteous works, or with righteous works of any kind.
He answered only in terms of faith, because
faith is the only thing required for the gift of eternal life.
But having received eternal life by faith only, the eternal life of faith is lived in obedience to Jesus' two commands of Matthew 22:37-40, which subsume the Ten Commandments (Romans 13:8-10).

nor was it ever directed to us gentiles.

Jesus is the one who took the kingdom from the Jews and gave it to the Gentiles (Matthew 21:43), cutting off Israel from the one olive tree of God's people because of their unbelief, and grafting in the Gentiles. And Israel's destiny, IF they do not persist in unbelief is to be grated back into the one olive tree of God's people with the NT church which is mostly Gentiles.

There is no separation of Jew and Gentile in the gift of eternal life by faith.

 

[Clare73]

As I said, you are seeing it like that is because you want to insert Paul into the 4 gospels.

Strawman. . .non-responsive.

"Seeing it like that"?

Jesus said it like that. . .that's why Paul said it like that. . .it's the same thing.

Paul received his doctrine from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5). And all Scripture is the word of God, not just the red letters.

And with that in mind, you are in disagreement with the word of God which reveals:

1) The NT church is the mystery of the Gentiles now being included in the one olive tree of God's people, both OT and NT; i.e., the church (ekklesia, Acts 7:38), whose roots are the OT patriarchs (Ephesians 3:3-6).

2)The mystery of the the church is that all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, OT and NT, are the one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:15), there is no separation in God's redeemed people.

3) The church is God's new creation, the restoration of his original creation, which restoration exceeds his original creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). There is no other restored creation apart from the church.

4) The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).

5) The church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

There is no other age after the church, only Jesus' second coming and the final judgment.

And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

 

[Guojing]

Non-responsive.

"Seeing it like that"?

Jesus said it like that. . .that's why Paul said it like that. . .it's the same thing.

Paul received his doctrine from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5). And all Scripture is the word of God, not just the red letters.

And with that in mind, you are in disagreement with the word of God which reveals:

1) The NT church is the mystery of the Gentiles now being included in the one olive tree of God's people, both OT and NT; i.e., the church (ekklesia, Acts 7:38), whose roots are the OT patriarchs (Ephesians 3:3-6).
The mystery of the the church is that all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, OT and NT, are the one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:15), there is no separation in God's redeemed people.

2) The church is God's new creation, the restoration of his original creation, which restoration exceeds his original creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). There is no other creation.

3) The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).

4) The church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

There is no other age after the church.
There is only Jesus' second coming and the final judgment.

And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

You begin with the axiom that "Paul said the same thing as Jesus said in the 4 Gospels".

Then you interpret all these other scriptures according to that axiom.

That is understandable. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said it like that. . .that's why Paul said it like that. . .it's the same thing.
Paul received his doctrine from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5). And all Scripture is the word of God, not just the red letters.
And with that in mind, you are in disagreement with the word of God which reveals:
1) The NT church is the mystery of the Gentiles now being included in the one olive tree of God's people, both OT and NT; i.e., the church (ekklesia, Acts 7:38), whose roots are the OT patriarchs (Ephesians 3:3-6).

2)The mystery of the the church is that all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, OT and NT, are the one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:15), there is no separation in God's redeemed people.
3) The church is God's new creation, the restoration of his original creation, which restoration exceeds his original creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). There is no other restored creation apart from the church.

4) The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).
5) The church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).
There is no other age after the church, there is only Jesus' second coming and the final judgment.

And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

You begin with the axiom that "Paul said the same thing as Jesus said in the 4 Gospels".

Strawman. . .
I begin with wording of their texts, which are the same.

Then you interpret all these other scriptures according to that axiom.

Then I proceed from the "axiom" that words keep their meaning wherever they are used.
Then I proceed to the axiom of the authority of all the word of God written, which does not allow me to assign different meanings to equivalent texts for the sake of an erroneous theology which enjoys no support in authoritative NT teaching.

That is understandable. We can agree to disagree.

"Understandable" but false.

You did not address either the authority of all the word of God written, nor the texts (above) which authoritatively teach no temporal age after the church.

Non-responsive.

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

May people fall into two categories. One has a cup and they let others fill it for them because they are lazy. These types follow a person and not the teachings in the Bible. The other has a cup which is full and they have a lid holding it closed. Regardless of what was put in by whom they will never change or grow.

If must fill your own cup and continue to compare it to the Bible as you grown. Even Peter who was on the scene pointed to Paul in the end.

 

[Guojing]

Gloss. . .
I begin with wording of their texts, which are the same.
Then I proceed, not from an "axiom," but from the authority of all the word of God written, which does not allow me to assign different meanings to equivalent texts for the sake of an erroneous theology which enjoys no support in authoritative NT teaching.

We naturally think that how we proceed happens to be according to what was actually written in scripture.

It can be hard for one to admit and understand that all of us read scripture from a certain lens.

Again, this is understandable behavior.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus said it like that. . .that's why Paul said it like that. . .it's the same thing.
Paul received his doctrine from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5). You are in disagreement with the word of God which reveals:
1) The NT church is the mystery of the Gentiles now being included in the one olive tree of God's people, both OT and NT; i.e., the church (ekklesia, Acts 7:38), whose roots are the OT patriarchs (Ephesians 3:3-6).
2)The mystery of the the church is that all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, OT and NT, are the one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:15), there is no separation in God's redeemed people.
3) The church is God's new creation, the restoration of his original creation, which restoration exceeds his original creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). There is no other restored creation apart from the church.

4) The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).
5) The church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).
There is no other age after the church, only Jesus' second coming and the final judgment.
And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

We naturally think that how we proceed happens to be according to what was actually written in scripture.

Strawman. . .

And it remains for you to show that it is not.
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

And so. . .the authority of all the word of God written, as well as the Biblical texts (above) which
teach no temporal age after the church remain unaddressed by you.

Non-responsive.