The Mystery of Pauls Writings

[danny ski]

That dome view of Skiva's is much more believable as well as pictoral of the Genesis account than one I remember reading about from the Creation Dr Baugh years ago.

I don't think he was wrong in so much that he used the Hebrew to understand what it looked like but he was placing that understanding on a man made taught model of the earth as being a globe.

View attachment 171353

Instead the canopy would be like that of a dome like in the last post.

I'm starting to think about all the implications this has on our understanding of the Bible like Dr. Baugh basing his science on this fallacy?

How much then of the bible is misunderstood?

Up until Copernicus and Galileo it was thought that the earth was flat.

Let's look at some dates

I think I'll start another thread on this as it is already derailed, but we can still explore the testings in the bible in this one.

The concept of spherical Earth goes back to at least 5th century BCE. By the time of the 1st century BCE it was a pretty common knowledge.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The Babylonians and Egyptians both scientifically discovered the earth was round, and the Bible never contradicts this.

Regarding those who make God and his Word seems foolish by connecting him to flat earth theory and other unscientific things, Scriptures admonish:
"The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

I always like it when I see notification saying that you've replied, because I always know that the post will be good!


Shabat shalom

 

[Hoshiyya]

I always like it when I see notification saying that you've replied, because I always know that the post will be good!


Shabat shalom

Thank you for saying that!
That's really nice to hear.

Shabbat shalom, achi.

 

[Lulav]

The Babylonians and Egyptians both scientifically discovered the earth was round, and the Bible never contradicts this.

Regarding those who make God and his Word seems foolish by connecting him to flat earth theory and other unscientific things, Scriptures admonish:
"The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you."

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You are accusing me of making G-ds word foolish? Of not considering 'scientific things' over his word?

That I am the cause of gentiles blaspheming his name?

Did I get that right?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Followers of the God of Israel and the messiah are israelites (by blood or sojourning).

Christians are followers of a later religion, Paul's religion.

I love this quote.

 

[BukiRob]

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. He also said the flesh profits nothing, but the spirit gives life. Thank you for your comments.

Yet no where do you in anyway find him teaching against the Torah. In fact what he is constantly doing is pointing out and correcting the error of the teachers of the law.

In fact, when you understand what the word plerro means in the context is used when Yeshua says in Matthew "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

The word Fulfill is Pleroo in greek. Strong's defines it as to carry out as a duty or to be accomplished as it should be.

So if we use modern language what we find the messiah saying is something that looks like this:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to carry it out fully as it should be. “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished in the law and prophets. “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

All of this anti Torah stuff has a common root. Dispensationalism that teaches that G-d changes and that physical Israel and Jews are no longer G-d chosen but rather they have been replaced by "the church"

I TRULY believe that Adonai Elohim is speaking to the gentile church when he is calling "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE...." in revelations.

 

[SistrNChrist]

From what I understand, the first Gentiles that came to Christ also practiced certain Jewish laws, such as keeping the Ten Commandments, not eating food with blood in it, celebrating Jewish festivals, etc. It wasn't until Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and outlawed all Jewish practices that Christianity started to completely drift away from Judaism.

 

[BukiRob]

From what I understand, the first Gentiles that came to Christ also practiced certain Jewish laws, such as keeping the Ten Commandments, not eating food with blood in it, celebrating Jewish festivals, etc. It wasn't until Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire and outlawed all Jewish practices that Christianity started to completely drift away from Judaism.

I believe that is a misreading of things.

Perhaps the single greatest foundation for the current view of Torah regarding wither believers are to bother with the Torah, the feast days etc is based on the ACTS 15 argument.

In order to properly understand what is going on we FIRST must clearly and correctly identify what the debate is about. If we get this wrong then we can make scripture say anything we want. So I can not under emphasize the importance of clearly and correctly identifying what is being debated.

Fortunately Acts 15 CLEARLY defines the debate for us.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

So what is the debate?? WHO CAN BE SAVED.

So what is significant about circumcision because here is where the confusion and error can arise. Prior to the coming of Messiah, G-d dealt with one people and only with one people... ISRAEL. So if a gentile want to be in covenantal relationship he or she had to either be an alien sojourning or convert. Scripture in the OT tells us that there was only 1 Torah for the Israelite and the alien sojourning among them.

These men from Judea were trying to argue that a gentile could not be saved that ONLY the Jew could be saved.

Notice that in verse 2 Paul and Barnabas argued against this thinking. It was then suggested that Paul and Barnabas along with the men from Judea go to Jerusalem to obtain a ruling from the elders.

In verse 5 we see believer who were among the Pharisee's say 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Again, if you misread what is going on you will misunderstand James and the elders rendering.

Its critical to know as well, how the Jews adjudicated a dispute. They are exercising the mosaic model of dispute resolution here. ON the testimony of 2 or witnesses a matter is established.

To understand this its is imperative you see HOW the witnesses testify.
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.


ALL of the testimony given by Peter, Paul and Barnabas is ALL directly related to SALVATION. Peter summarizes by saying "but we believe and are saved grace...

In verse 19 James says.... “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

So what is the trouble he is talking about? CIRCUMCISION and telling them that they can not be saved as a gentile that they must first CONVERT to Judaism and THEN they can be saved.

This makes even more sense when you read the REST of what James says. 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Okay so what's the deal with these things? ALL of them EVERY SINGLE ONE is dealing with Pagan Idolatry. During this period of time the pagan temple was more than just a religious center. It served as a civil functions as well. Meat offered to their gods was sold at the temple after it was sacrificed. Animals sacrificed were often strangled. Drinking of blood was a common practice as was temple prostitution.

The only sin for which both Judah and Israel was removed from the land was idolatry. In essence James is saying lets deal with this major sin of idolatry immediately and they will get the rest as they go to synagogue.

We know this by what he says in verse 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

What James is saying here in modern language is look, they will learn what they are supposed to be doing over time because they will hear the Torah read every Sabbath when they attend Sabbath service at their local synagogue.

When properly read Acts 15 is a very strong advocate of a PROPER reading of Paul writings. That the believer is to live a life that is the fulfillment of the new covenant as prophesied in Jeremiah that Adonai Elohim's Law will be written upon our hearts and in our mind. It is NOT done away with.

The Gentile believer is to walk in the light... The OT declares that the Torah is a lamp (light) unto my feet guiding me in the way I should go.

1 John tells us plainly that if we say we know HIM we will walk as HE walked. How did Messiah walk? Upright, blameless in all of his ways in complete holiness with the Torah.

 

[Llewelyn]

I believe that is a misreading of things.

Perhaps the single greatest foundation for the current view of Torah regarding wither believers are to bother with the Torah, the feast days etc is based on the ACTS 15 argument.

In order to properly understand what is going on we FIRST must clearly and correctly identify what the debate is about. If we get this wrong then we can make scripture say anything we want. So I can not under emphasize the importance of clearly and correctly identifying what is being debated.

Fortunately Acts 15 CLEARLY defines the debate for us.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

So what is the debate?? WHO CAN BE SAVED.

So what is significant about circumcision because here is where the confusion and error can arise. Prior to the coming of Messiah, G-d dealt with one people and only with one people... ISRAEL. So if a gentile want to be in covenantal relationship he or she had to either be an alien sojourning or convert. Scripture in the OT tells us that there was only 1 Torah for the Israelite and the alien sojourning among them.

These men from Judea were trying to argue that a gentile could not be saved that ONLY the Jew could be saved.

Notice that in verse 2 Paul and Barnabas argued against this thinking. It was then suggested that Paul and Barnabas along with the men from Judea go to Jerusalem to obtain a ruling from the elders.

In verse 5 we see believer who were among the Pharisee's say 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Again, if you misread what is going on you will misunderstand James and the elders rendering.

Its critical to know as well, how the Jews adjudicated a dispute. They are exercising the mosaic model of dispute resolution here. ON the testimony of 2 or witnesses a matter is established.

To understand this its is imperative you see HOW the witnesses testify.
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.


ALL of the testimony given by Peter, Paul and Barnabas is ALL directly related to SALVATION. Peter summarizes by saying "but we believe and are saved grace...

In verse 19 James says.... “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

So what is the trouble he is talking about? CIRCUMCISION and telling them that they can not be saved as a gentile that they must first CONVERT to Judaism and THEN they can be saved.

This makes even more sense when you read the REST of what James says. 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Okay so what's the deal with these things? ALL of them EVERY SINGLE ONE is dealing with Pagan Idolatry. During this period of time the pagan temple was more than just a religious center. It served as a civil functions as well. Meat offered to their gods was sold at the temple after it was sacrificed. Animals sacrificed were often strangled. Drinking of blood was a common practice as was temple prostitution.

The only sin for which both Judah and Israel was removed from the land was idolatry. In essence James is saying lets deal with this major sin of idolatry immediately and they will get the rest as they go to synagogue.

We know this by what he says in verse 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

What James is saying here in modern language is look, they will learn what they are supposed to be doing over time because they will hear the Torah read every Sabbath when they attend Sabbath service at their local synagogue.

When properly read Acts 15 is a very strong advocate of a PROPER reading of Paul writings. That the believer is to live a life that is the fulfillment of the new covenant as prophesied in Jeremiah that Adonai Elohim's Law will be written upon our hearts and in our mind. It is NOT done away with.

The Gentile believer is to walk in the light... The OT declares that the Torah is a lamp (light) unto my feet guiding me in the way I should go.

1 John tells us plainly that if we say we know HIM we will walk as HE walked. How did Messiah walk? Upright, blameless in all of his ways in complete holiness with the Torah.

I do like the way this point closes because I have often said that people often ignore the fact that Paul used the Law to support his doctrine and defend what he said. If Paul was dead set against the law then great portions of his teaching are a complete waste of time. Paul did not intend that we ignore the law but that we fully appreciate what Christ accomplished through his death on the cross: he took the law's punishment on our behalf. This was accomplished in part by the sacrifices of the Old Testament, though not perfectly as it was in Christ. By means of sacrifice the animals took the sins of the people on themselves and the people were free. Unfortunately this was misappropriated by many as it is today. Some became blaze towards the law thinking to themselves, what does it matter? I have a sacrifice so I'll just sin and then offer a sacrifice. Others walked in condemnation because they did not believe the sacrifice. However the true in heart knew of God's grace by the sacrifice and their responsibility to the law and did not despise the sacrifice by making light of it nor by ignoring its beauty. By the word and prophecy God showed them the sacrifice he had prepared for all eternity who came among us as Jesus of Nazareth. For this reason Paul writes we are saved by grace... unto good works. He never intended for us not to separate ourselves from evil.

 

[BukiRob]

I do like the way this point closes because I have often said that people often ignore the fact that Paul used the Law to support his doctrine and defend what he said. If Paul was dead set against the law then great portions of his teaching are a complete waste of time. Paul did not intend that we ignore the law but that we fully appreciate what Christ accomplished through his death on the cross: he took the law's punishment on our behalf. This was accomplished in part by the sacrifices of the Old Testament, though not perfectly as it was in Christ. By means of sacrifice the animals took the sins of the people on themselves and the people were free. Unfortunately this was misappropriated by many as it is today. Some became blaze towards the law thinking to themselves, what does it matter? I have a sacrifice so I'll just sin and then offer a sacrifice. Others walked in condemnation because they did not believe the sacrifice. However the true in heart knew of God's grace by the sacrifice and their responsibility to the law and did not despise the sacrifice by making light of it nor by ignoring its beauty. By the word and prophecy God showed them the sacrifice he had prepared for all eternity who came among us as Jesus of Nazareth. For this reason Paul writes we are saved by grace... unto good works. He never intended for us not to separate ourselves from evil.

This is especially true when you look at Messiah's own words about the law when he plainly states that he came to; carry out the Torah as it should be (pleroo)

In other words, he was providing us with the model of HOW to observe the Torah how to walk it out effectually. The part that almost ALL who are anti torah are not looking at are the blessings associated with those who walk upright. The Torah is a light to our feet.... so when John tells us to walk in the light this is HOW we walk in the light. When he challenges the believer to walk as messiah walked this is HOW we accomplish that!

 

[Llewelyn]

I don't know much about observing the Torah as I'm not even sure what it is and I walk by the law of love that Jesus taught, which is not opposed to the Law given to Moses that acts as a school teacher to guide me. I suppose that could be called a light to my feet.

I'm afraid I am not a Sabbath-keeper as I work 7 days a week to put food on the table; nor am I circumcised so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that someone else keep the law. According to the Bible I am not convinced that I need these things or that they are demanded for salvation. However for those who wish to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath, I am happy for them as long as they believe in Jesus of Nazareth the only begotten son of God. I do not see that I need to make a distinction.

 

[BukiRob]

I don't know much about observing the Torah as I'm not even sure what it is and I walk by the law of love that Jesus taught, which is not opposed to the Law given to Moses that acts as a school teacher to guide me. I suppose that could be called a light to my feet.

I'm afraid I am not a Sabbath-keeper as I work 7 days a week to put food on the table; nor am I circumcised so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that someone else keep the law. According to the Bible I am not convinced that I need these things or that they are demanded for salvation. However for those who wish to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath, I am happy for them as long as they believe in Jesus of Nazareth the only begotten son of God. I do not see that I need to make a distinction.

Here in lies the great confusion many sincere believers have... a complete lack of understand about what Torah is and what its purpose is.

Yeshua stated that All of the Torah rests upon the foundation of the 2 great commands... Love G-d with all your heart, soul and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself.

The Torah teaches you HOW to accomplish those things as G-d see's it.

Of the 10 commandments ALL of them deal either with our relationship with G-d or our relationship with our neighbor.

You see, self deception creeps in when we say "Oh I can just do those 2 things and not bother with the Torah. After all I am under Grace..... " the problem with this argument is that YOU the individual are deciding what is right in your own eyes... scripture says that this is evil....

We as believers indeed are "led by the Ruach (spirit)" However we are told where the Spirit will lead us... INTO ALL TRUTH. What does the bible declare is Truth? THE TORAH... So, if indeed we are being led by the Spirit and we are following Him he will lead us to the Torah.

The "church" has erroneously taught that the law (Torah) is bondage... yet scripture says the opposite.

 

[BukiRob]

Doesn't say that in the text. Who taught you this?

Numerous commentaries from a variety of commentators... it is a rather widely held view amongst biblical scholars

 

[BukiRob]

I don't know much about observing the Torah as I'm not even sure what it is and I walk by the law of love that Jesus taught, which is not opposed to the Law given to Moses that acts as a school teacher to guide me. I suppose that could be called a light to my feet.

I'm afraid I am not a Sabbath-keeper as I work 7 days a week to put food on the table; nor am I circumcised so it would be hypocritical of me to demand that someone else keep the law. According to the Bible I am not convinced that I need these things or that they are demanded for salvation. However for those who wish to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath, I am happy for them as long as they believe in Jesus of Nazareth the only begotten son of God. I do not see that I need to make a distinction.

Yet again, people who reject the torah inextricably vainly attempt to link salvation with keeping Torah.... this is a LIE.

Keeping or observing the Torah DOES NOT GRANT SALVATION any more than sitting in your garage will make you a car.

Keeping or observing Torah produces wisdom which starts with FEAR OF THE LORD

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

The purpose of the Torah is to lead you into the ways of walking in righteousness. 1st John tells us that we ought to walk as He(Messiah) walked. That as HE is in the light so too should we be in the light.

In the OT we are told that the Torah is a lamp (LIGHT) unto our feet directing our path... so If it is Light this is where we find Yeshua....

He said that he did not come to abolish the law and prophets but rather he came to fulfill. The Greek word for fulfill is PELROO and Strongs' defines for this specific verse as to "carry out a duty or obligation as it should be"

Meaning, he was saying I am the example of HOW you observe the law. Showing us exactly HOW we are to be upright in all of our ways.

I know of NO ONE who is a beliver that will try to argue that we are not to love G-d with all we have our being, soul, heart, mind and strength and that we are to love our neighbor as ourself...

Yet these are the very foundation of the Torah... how then can you argue as a believer that we are to avoid learning about the Torah and ignore it?

 

[Llewelyn]

Perhaps that's a bad example any way, because, isn't it a sign of weak faith and conscience to not eat the unclean or anything sacrificed to idols, according to Paul?

I had to wonder how you read that in there, so I read it again.

I find it interesting that you find James so easy to understand and Paul so hard and it makes me wonder if you do.

I think whatever we read is going to be open to interpretation. Don't tell me the Jews didn't interpret things differently. Just go to Jesus' time and see the factions.

I do not believe the Law to be evil and I remember Paul saying just that. Was it not that Paul was testifying the the Law, as good as it was, had not helped him like Jesus did? I understand the dealing of the Law through the sacrificial and substitutional death of Jesus Christ. I am free from the Law because Christ has paid the price, but I am not free to sin, only free of it. I actually came to understand this by the Law and the sacrifices. Without them I could hardly prove what I already knew. He has paid it all.

 

[Llewelyn]

Yet again, people who reject the torah inextricably vainly attempt to link salvation with keeping Torah.... this is a LIE.

I think you misunderstood me. I do not link salvation with keeping the Law. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I do not feel obligated to the law, only to Christ. However if I follow Christ the Law will be in its place for Christ was lawful: in him was no sin.

 

[visionary]

I think you misunderstood me. I do not link salvation with keeping the Law. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I do not feel obligated to the law, only to Christ. However if I follow Christ the Law will be in its place for Christ was lawful: in him was no sin.

Why do people associate the law with salvation? Sacrifice was the price paid for salvation. Salvation is found in the law in its prophetic meanings contained in the sacrifice laws. Righteousness is found in the TEN. Yeshua offered salvation by His righteousness obligation and sacrifice. Obligation to the Law is evidence of righteousness in God's Book. I often am confused by statements like "I follow Christ" and because "the Law will be in its place for Christ was lawful, in him no sin", "I do not feel obligated to the law". It makes no sense. How can you follow Christ and not follow what He did as the righteous example of a sinless life? Since sin is defined by the TEN, disobedience, neglect, or disregarding these guidelines is a disconnect in my mind.

 

[Job8]

Why the sudden change in style, why the sudden education level requirement, jump in learning curve, shift in fruit of followers, personal interpret-ability and self-contradiction/contradiction of everything that came before him, why would that be?

Simply because Paul is unique, and God says that Paul has indeed written some things which are hard to be understood. When God gives a man the privilege to write 55% of the New Testament, Christians are obligated to listen carefully and understand that it is NOT Paul who is communicating spiritual truths, but God the Holy Spirit through Paul. Since Paul's epistles are to be treated as on the same level as the Old Testament (Tanakh), we should be delighted with the writings of Paul.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15,16).

 

[Llewelyn]

Why do people associate the law with salvation? Sacrifice was the price paid for salvation. Salvation is found in the law in its prophetic meanings contained in the sacrifice laws. Righteousness is found in the TEN. Yeshua offered salvation by His righteousness obligation and sacrifice. Obligation to the Law is evidence of righteousness in God's Book. I often am confused by statements like "I follow Christ" and because "the Law will be in its place for Christ was lawful, in him no sin", "I do not feel obligated to the law". It makes no sense. How can you follow Christ and not follow what He did as the righteous example of a sinless life? Since sin is defined by the TEN, disobedience, neglect, or disregarding these guidelines is a disconnect in my mind.

I was just answering the quotation that I associate the Law with salvation. I do not. You just said the same thing I said, so let me clarify for you. I follow Christ. Christ was lawful by nature and I exemplify that nature. If I do this I too become lawful. When I say I do not feel obligated to the law I am saying that I am not bound to the letter of it for my salvation. If I have truly put on Christ I will be law abiding because he is law abiding. Sin is more than just a casual observance of the TEN, that is why Jesus spoke of the law of love: the two greatest commandments on which hinge the whole law. In fact I think it was a Jewish person who pointed out that neither of those are in the Ten as you call it. My obligation is to Christ.