The Mystery of Pauls Writings

Extraneous

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Paul is also using spiritual language. He is speaking in mysteries that are hidden in the bible from Genesis to Revelation. Thats why its hard to understand him. I don't understand Gods mystery fully, but im convinced that much of what is written is still hidden in this spiritual language.
 
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visionary

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I am interested in talking to you, not Stott. I tell that to any and all here who simply blow off responding and dump it on you to go look at some source online. Again, I'm not talking to him, but you. I want to hear your case. I sense you find he is going to present some sort of argument that the Bible had a spherical earth, etc. If so, been there, done that. If I had a nickel for everything I had to listen to those bogus arguments...
I have to ask..
Are all the planets, suns, stars, moons also flat?
Has anyone been to the edge of the earth?
How do planes and ships circle the earth?
 
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Lulav

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Rob and I used to be friends before he went down the Flat Earther path. I like his videos relating to the Nephilim and the DSS books/Gen 6:4. I think the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants" has taken on new meaning here, but my (as yet incomplete) book and future video series owes a huge debt to Rob and his work. I haven't actually read his books though :p
Yeah, I've seen one of his videos on that. Quite interesting about Admiral Byrd, The Russian compact and the missile testing though.

It's always made me wonder about certain things in the Bible such as

We Give Thanks, for Your Name is Near--Psalms 75

1{To the chief Musician, Altaschith, A Psalm or Song of Asaph.} Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.
2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
-------------------------
Job 9

6
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
-----------------------------------------------
1 Samuel 2

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the L-RD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Or these

Why are there four directions given for the mishkan, Temple including Ezekiel's temple and in Revelation as well?

From Mark 14

"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

(this word translated means an extremity) the ends of the earth. A sphere doesn't have an 'end'.


Job 26
7He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.

10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

12He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.

13By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

From Isaiah 14

For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

All these things make one wonder.

There is also ancient 'Mythology' which I believe is remembrances of things before the flood and perhaps shortly thereafter.

Hercules holding up the world

or turtle holding up the world from China to North America.
 
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Extraneous

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Yeah, I've seen one of his videos on that. Quite interesting about Admiral Byrd, The Russian compact and the missile testing though.

It's always made me wonder about certain things in the Bible such as

We Give Thanks, for Your Name is Near--Psalms 75

1{To the chief Musician, Altaschith, A Psalm or Song of Asaph.} Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.
2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
-------------------------
Job 9

6
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
-----------------------------------------------
1 Samuel 2

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the L-RD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Or these

Why are there four directions given for the mishkan, Temple including Ezekiel's temple and in Revelation as well?

From Mark 14

"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

(this word translated means an extremity) the ends of the earth. A sphere doesn't have an 'end'.


Job 26
7He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.

10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

12He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.

13By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

From Isaiah 14

For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

All these things make one wonder.

There is also ancient 'Mythology' which I believe is remembrances of things before the flood and perhaps shortly thereafter.

Hercules holding up the world

or turtle holding up the world from China to North America.

I was thinking of those Four winds from those very scriptures as well, earlier today. The scriptures seem filled with mysterious language. I do believe God has given us a very great and wonderful mystery in the scriptures.
 
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Lulav

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I was thinking of those Four winds from those very scriptures as well, earlier today. The scriptures seem filled with mysterious language. I do believe God has given us a very great and wonderful mystery in the scriptures.
Yes and as king Solly said:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of G-d to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

If we have been made Kings and priests, then I take that to mean it's for us. :)
 
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Extraneous

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Yes and as king Solly said:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of G-d to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

If we have been made Kings and priests, then I take that to mean it's for us. :)

Yes, i agree. Im also reminded that Christ abides in us, and the spirit teaches us. He's the King of Kings.
 
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Extraneous

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Comfort and hope in the scriptures. I was looking for verses on comfort and ran into Isaiah 40. Verse 22 mentions the circle of the earth. Is that a sphere maybe? It also mentions the ends of the earth as well.


Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.


Isaiah 40:11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd;
He will gather the lambs with His arm,
And carry them in His bosom,
And gently lead those who are with young.
12 Who has measured the waters[c] in the hollow of His hand,
Measured heaven with a span
And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
Weighed the mountains in scales
And the hills in a balance?
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?

22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,

28 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the Lord,
The Creator of the ends of the earth,
Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.
29 He gives power to the weak,
And to those who have no might He increases strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
And the young men shall utterly fall,
31 But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.
 
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Lulav

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A circle and sphere are two different things. I have read that chapter before and wondered.

This is really interesting

HebrewConceptEarth.jpg
 
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Extraneous

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A circle and sphere are two different things. I have read that chapter before and wondered.

This is really interesting

HebrewConceptEarth.jpg

Thanks. Yes, i wasn't really trying to prove anything, its just that i happen to see that scripture. I don't really think the bible is meant to be a science book anyway. Its just way too symbolic for that, i believe.
 
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Lulav

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I personally think it's above science. One day we will sit at the Masters' feet and have him open all the scriptures to us, like he did about himself to the two on the road to Emmaus. I can't wait for that day to come! :clap:
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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If I were to write "the whole wide world" and in 2500 years someone were to read that and say "well, flat infinite planes are wide, balls are not, so he is clearly describing a flat earth" you think that that person is being absolutely ridiculous, but that's exactly what you are doing with the "circle of the Earth" phrase, which is NOT understood as a flat earth clue by anyone who has any idea about the idiomatic nature and innate understanding of Hebrew, only by those who copy and paste the Hebrew words into Strong's translation software.


Let me give you a wonderful example of why this is a mistake. Most translators now have been adjusted to avoid such situations, but back in 2010 I actually got these results from early translation software:


I translated the following phrase into Spanish:
"Feel free to come in and take a seat!"

The Spanish phrase produced was:
"Entre nada mas y toma una silla!"

I then translated that back into English and the result was rather amusing, but technically totally correct:
"Between no more, drink a chair!"

Using that phrase to prove a flat earth is like drinking a chair to welcome a guest!


----------------------------------------------------------


"Ancient Hebrew conception of the universe" - drawn by the ancient Israelites in autocad or photoshop on their top spec PCs I assume? :p
There is zero evidence for that, that is just someone's drawing with the CLAIM that it is their concept of the universe. The Israelites, Greeks and Romans all observed the movement of the ocean and saw the ships sailing over the horizon and disappearing, and concluded that the Earth was round. Landlocked cultures concluded that the Earth was flat.
If you were to actually read ancient Hebrew writings, the specific example that I can think if off of the top of my head is written in the Midrashes (NOT scriptural BUT they demonstrate what the Israelites actually believed about the shape of the Earth, rather than a CGI image and a claim.

There's nothing stopping me from drawing anything and typing "ancient Hebrew concept of..." - it's not a source, it's a false claim that easily ensnares the gullible and conspiracy theorists looking for anything that satisfies their confirmation bias rather than actually discerning facts, as I'm yet to come across anyone who uses it as a source but has actually ever questioned it as a source.
 
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Lulav

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If I were to write "the whole wide world" and in 2500 years someone were to read that and say "well, flat infinite planes are wide, balls are not, so he is clearly describing a flat earth" you think that that person is being absolutely ridiculous, but that's exactly what you are doing with the "circle of the Earth" phrase, which is NOT understood as a flat earth clue by anyone who has any idea about the idiomatic nature and innate understanding of Hebrew, only by those who copy and paste the Hebrew words into Strong's translation software.


Let me give you a wonderful example of why this is a mistake. Most translators now have been adjusted to avoid such situations, but back in 2010 I actually got these results from early translation software:


I translated the following phrase into Spanish:
"Feel free to come in and take a seat!"

The Spanish phrase produced was:
"Entre nada mas y toma una silla!"

I then translated that back into English and the result was rather amusing, but technically totally correct:
"Between no more, drink a chair!"

Using that phrase to prove a flat earth is like drinking a chair to welcome a guest!


----------------------------------------------------------


"Ancient Hebrew conception of the universe" - drawn by the ancient Israelites in autocad or photoshop on their top spec PCs I assume? :p
There is zero evidence for that, that is just someone's drawing with the CLAIM that it is their concept of the universe. The Israelites, Greeks and Romans all observed the movement of the ocean and saw the ships sailing over the horizon and disappearing, and concluded that the Earth was round. Landlocked cultures concluded that the Earth was flat.
If you were to actually read ancient Hebrew writings, the specific example that I can think if off of the top of my head is written in the Midrashes (NOT scriptural BUT they demonstrate what the Israelites actually believed about the shape of the Earth, rather than a CGI image and a claim.

There's nothing stopping me from drawing anything and typing "ancient Hebrew concept of..." - it's not a source, it's a false claim that easily ensnares the gullible and conspiracy theorists looking for anything that satisfies their confirmation bias rather than actually discerning facts, as I'm yet to come across anyone who uses it as a source but has actually ever questioned it as a source.
:|
 
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daq

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Perhaps every man is the Land and therefore each one has the circumference of a canopy around his or her own personal ionosphere. If so, one day the covering will be removed to see what is lurking inside. And who shall live when El does this? ^_^
.
.
 
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Dkh587

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That doesn't even begin to make any sense, Extraneous. Of course, the Bible is not a book of science. That's why it views the earth and flat, and the sun as revolving around the earth, etc.
If the bible is incorrect about the earth and universe, what else is it incorrect about? And how do we know what to believe?
The bible doesnt say that the earth is flat. The language in the bible is a holy spiritual language that talks of mysteries, but its not a science book. It never intended to suggest that world was flat. If we took the same language that people use to say the world was considered flat in old times, (flat according to scripture), then we would need to also say God reached out of heaven with is hand and formed the earth. We know the bible didn't actually mean his hand did it though, because he also says that his spoke and it was created. This flat earth thing is wrong. The bible doesn't say the earth is flat. Its a spiritual language that has hidden mysteries in it. Thats why its written in the form that it is.
you're making excuses to deny what's plainly written about in the bible: a flat, motionless geo-centric earth with the sun, moon and stars revolving above us

do you have an issue accepting the flat earth that Moses and the prophets wrote about? If so, why?
 
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Pentateuch and Yeshua

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True objective science shows that there is more evidence that the Earth is still and that everything else moves, than that the Earth spins and moves, there are many studies (refuted ONLY by theory, ad-hoc theory) that show that the Earth is a still ball. The Bible NEVER explicitly states anything regarding the shape of the Earth BUT it tells us that the Earth is unmovable.

Take a look at the following:
Michelson-Morely experiment,
The Michelson-Gale experiment (Reference - Astrophysical Journal 1925 v 61 pp 140-5),
"Airey's failure" (Reference - Proc. Roy. Soc. London v 20 p 35),
The Sagnac experiment (Reference - Comptes Rendus 1913 v157 p 708-710 and 1410-3)

The results of the analysis of the Planck Satellite data, particularly the so-called "WMAP Axis of evil" lend further credence to the geocentrist's argument, causing many scientists in the field to demand that this area of science that aught to have been solved a long time ago and had much more funding and study.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quotes From Famous Scientists On Geocentrism *



"[W]e have[...] certainty regarding the stability of the Earth, situated in the center, and the motion of the sun around the Earth." - Galileo Galilei in letter to Francesco Rinuccini, March 29th, 1641

"[Redshifts] would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, analogous, in a sense, to the ancient conception of a central Earth[...] This hypothesis cannot be disproved" - Edwin Hubble in The Observational Approach to Cosmology

"[A]ll this evidence that the universe looks the same whichever direction we look in might seem to suggest there is something special about our place in the universe. In particular, it might seem that if we observe all other galaxies to be moving away from us, then we must be at the center of the universe[...] We [reject] it only on grounds of modesty" - Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time

"If the Earth were at the center of the universe, the attraction of the surrounding mass of stars would also produce redshifts wherever we looked! [This] theory seems quite consistent with our astronomical observations" - Paul Davies in Nature

"I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it[...] A lot of cosmology tries to hide that." - George Ellis in Scientific American

"The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is simply incorrect" - Lawrence Krauss, 2006

"[Without Dark Energy, Earth must be] literally at the center of the universe, which is, to say the least, unusual" - Lawrence Krauss, 2009

"I don't think [CMB maps] don't point toward a geocentric universe" - Max Tegmarck, 2011

MORE RELEVANT QUOTES

"[R]ed shift in the spectra of quasars leads to yet another paradoxical result: namely, that the Earth is the center of the Universe." - Y.P. Varshni inAstrophysics and Space Science

"Earth is indeed the center of the universe." - Y.P. Varshni in Astrophysics and Space Science

"If the universe possesses a center, we must be very close to it" - Joseph Silk in The Big Bang: The Creation and Evolution of the Universe

"The uniform distribution of [gamma-ray] burst arrival directions tells us that the distribution of gamma-ray-burst sources in space is a sphere or spherical shell, with us at the center" - Jonathan Katz in The Biggest Bangs: The Mystery of Gamma-Ray Bursts, the Most Violent Explosions in the Universe

"To date, there has been no general way of determining [that] we live at a typical position in the Universe" - Chris Clarkson et al. in Physical Review Letters in 2008

It is interesting that Stephen Hawking has made comments that support geocentrism (on page 42 of ABHOT if I'm not mistaken, and also on the 42nd page of another book... 42... The meaning of life, the universe and everything? :p ),
and if ol' Stevo has no scientific objection to geocentricity, but only views it as a choice based upon a philosophical standpoint (1. We are in a special location because we were created, 2, we are random and our location is random and not special) then it would be arrogant for any believer in the Copernican theory to call a geocentrist wrong, that is, unless they either believe themselves to be more intellectually intelligent than Dr. Hawking or to be privy to some form of observational or experimental evidence that he didn't have.


The geocentric model genuinely IS supported by SCRIPTURE and by SCIENCE.
The FLAT EARTH is not (though passages can be manipulated to claim otherwise, but contextually they absolutely do not!) supported by either.

Regardless, the shape of the Earth is not something that is necessary, we are to obey Torah and to follow it according to the man Torah says is like Moses who we must listen to (Yeshua - and NO it doesn't say that we must listen to people claiming to speak for him, we must ONLY listen to HIM), so investigating the shape and nature of the Earth and trying to make it a scriptural thing really brings us to the edge of gnosticism, as does the whole claim of "the mysteries" (the mystery religion being pagan NOT scriptural!), thus anything requiring special knowledge, higher intelligence or discovery of mysteries is totally not scriptural, and on that note I hope that this topic is brought around full circle to the OP and topic title on supposed mysteries.
Torah is clear, obvious, direct, and not a mystery ("nor is it beyond you"), and so is the teaching by Yeshua on how to correctly apply it (summed up nicely in Matt 23:23 imo).
 
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If the bible is incorrect about the earth and universe, what else is it incorrect about? And how do we know what to believe?

you're making excuses to deny what's plainly written about in the bible: a flat, motionless geo-centric earth with the sun, moon and stars revolving above us

do you have an issue accepting the flat earth that Moses and the prophets wrote about? If so, why?

Do you read the Torah in the original Paleo-Hebrew and understand
every figure of speech that they used in Moses' day? Do you have
corners on your head? The bible says you do. So does your clothing.

We have sunrise and sunset today, so does that mean the sun is
rotating around the earth? It must be.
 
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