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The Mystery of Pauls Writings

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Lulav, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. BelieveTheWord

    BelieveTheWord Hebrew Roots Christian

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    So why isn't it possible that his real opinions might be misunderstood because we weren't there to hear everything he taught. If his close companion, Luke, is telling us that Paul was not abandoning the Torah, and the disciples are not condemning him as a heretic, then why not try to understand his writings in that light?
     
  2. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    You are assuming that Luke wrote Acts - and that it's the very Luke that was Paul's friend the physician. I've seen no real evidence for this. I don't think Paul would have been condemned as a heretic among followers of the Jesus movement. He was preaching Jesus, after all. But, the writer of Acts (whoever he was) was looking for ways to make Paul more mainline and submissive to the Jerusalem leadership than was actually true. I think there are political motivations behind this.
     
  3. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    You can get a pretty good idea what what the first followers of Yeshua believed by reading the Apostolic writings in the Ketuvei HaShalichim. The baptism of the Ruach Hakodesh was a fulfillment of the Prophets.

    Acts 18:24-26 CJB
    24 Meanwhile, a Jewish man named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent speaker with a thorough knowledge of the Tanakh.
    25 This man had been informed about the Way of the Lord, and with great spiritual fervor he spoke and taught accurately the facts about Yeshua, but he knew only the immersion of Yochanan.
    26 He began to speak out boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way of God in fuller detail.

    Ezekiel 36:25-27
    I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
    Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    Jeremiah 32:40
    I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

    The natural Jewish branches that hadn't been broken/removed from the Olive Tree understood what was still a "mystery" to most of Israel. So too these verses will apply to the New Israel/.Jerusalem. The "Mystery Religion" (Good News) that you describe above was first and foremost spread abroad by the first Jews that were followers of Mashiach Yeshua.
     
  4. big macher

    big macher Jewish Believer

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    Interesting the texts only refer to Israel. The mystery was that the Holy Spirit can fall upon Gentiles, making one new man. However the one new man still has distinctions. The one new man as you stated with your scriptures is the message of Messiah.
     
  5. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    I already stated my position that the Acts is propaganda and doesn't represent the actual history of the development of early Christian belief. I don't think I want to be pulled into outright disagreement on this issue, so quoting the Acts to me to prove your point is about like a Muslim quoting the Qur'an to you in order to prove their point that the Qur'an is true. I have my reasons for not accepting what Acts says, and quoting from the text isn't going to change that.
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    I agree that both Ezekiel and Jeremiah had no idea that these words might remotely apply to Gentiles (one new man). Even John's inspired words (Matt 3:11 / Mark 1:8 / Luke 3:16) were most undoubtedly understood to refer only to Jews. The latter revelation to Peter that the Spirit of G-d could supernaturally empower a Gentile was a radical concept at the time.

    There are so few Messianic Jews in this forum that have anything good to say about Sid Roth and his Messianic Ministry (Jew & Gentile) called, It's Supernatural ... http://sidroth.org/ ... If unclean demonic spirits can inhabit either a Jew or Gentile, then doesn't it stand to reason that the Holy Spirit is able to reside, influence and even empower a Jew or Gentile (One New Person). Why do you think it is that "born again" and the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is so rarely discussed on this MJ forum? Is it still a "Mystery religion" within many Messianic Judaism congregations?

    1 Cor. 3:16-17
    Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.…
    1 Cor 6:19-20
    Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I would love for you to start a thread on this subject of "Acts is Propaganda" and explain why. I have never heard of such thinking. Knowing you are very thorough in your research, you must have found something that made you come to that conclusion.
     
  8. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    He's might be referring to the idea that all or most the NT is a Roman attempt at creating an acceptable religion for the Jews. There was a book ("Caesar's Messiah") a few years ago that gained some notoriety for claiming this (link).
     
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Luke was called "the beloved physician" by Paul in Colossians 4:14. In fact, we seem to have parts of Luke's travel diary with Paul in Acts 21, where the writer suddenly starts to talk about what "we" did. In Philemon, Paul calls Luke his "fellow-worker". At the beginning of Luke's version of the gospel he says he has investigated everything carefully and written an "orderly account". Of all the gospels, I like Luke's version because this gospel reveals more of the fuller details about Yeshua's life on earth from start to finish, the women, the healings, and other minor role people like shepherds, etc.
     
  10. Pentateuch and Yeshua

    Pentateuch and Yeshua Active Member

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    Along with that, any source other than Paul and acts for Paul being a jew? Any records of who gamiliel trained and whether there was a paulos among his apprentices? Any evidence for Paul having validity without quoting Paul or acts?

    I can find enough evidence of Yeshua - exact prophecies including a time, the fact that he would have to walk in the second AND build the third temple, etc and full timelines/descriptions from Adam to Yeshua in 1 Enoch, but not a scrap of evidence for Paul.

    I'm not allowed to post evidence or arguments disproving Paul but there is insurmountable evidence against him in the Torah, Tanakh, the prophecies, the gospels and history, some of which I may have posted before on here before I was asked not to do so anymore.
    All I want is evidence for him now, which should be easy to provide. I can provide evidence for Moses, tangible evidence that he actually existed and lead the Jews out of Egypt, which ofcourse atheists hate, I can provide evidence for the account of Noah and the 7 others on the ark outside of the scripture, but I cannot find evidence for Paul being a valid "apostle" in the Torah, Tanakh, apocrypha, historical records, New Testament (besides acts and Paul's own letters or letters believed to be by him) or any other source. Surely there is something though?
     
  11. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    Joseph Atwill is not a real scholar. I was not offering support for his book. However, there is a book called The Genius of Paul by Samuel Sandmel that is very insightful.
     
  12. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    We actually find in Greek literature that "we" is often used in recounting stories when the characters in the story begin a sea voyage. There is no reason to think that the author was intending to portray himself as a participant in the story.

    As it is, we have no indication in the text of either Luke or Acts that the author was Paul's friend and travel companion.
     
  13. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    Paul's letters are a good testament to his life. ;)

    I don't think Jesus wrote any letters. Why do you think Jesus existed but not Paul?
     
  14. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Believers generally agree that the LORD appointed Saul~Paul as His special Apostle to the Jews first and then the Gentiles (Galatians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 9:1; Acts 26:16–18). There are others in the early church referred to as “apostles” (Acts 14:4, 14; Romans 16:7;1 Thessalonians 2:6), but only in the sense that they were appointed, authorized, and sent as ambassadors of the Lord on special errands/appointments. These Believers bore the title “apostle” in a limited sense not having walked with Yeshua. Judas Iscarot was one of the original "disciples," but never achieved the status of an "apostle." The word "Apostle" was used after the risen Lord appeared to his disciples and commissioned them to proclaim the Good News.

    What about the recorded [red letter] Words spoken by Jesus in the Gospels? What about the transcribed Words of the Lord in the Book of Revelation? Believers agree that the inspired Words of the Prophets in the Tanakh and the inspired Words of the Apostles in the B'rit HaKodash are the transcribed Words of Adonai. According to the fifth Book of the NT (Acts of the Apostles) Paul would be considered an Apostle.

    Yes, many can nit pick on the definition of an "apostle" and the accuracy of some translations, but overall the Lord God watches over His Word to perform it (Jeremiah 1:12). Those that miss the mark may put forth excuses that they were confused by all the manmade interpretations, manmade traditions, business of the world, hypocrisy, etc, etc, etc. For those that have so many excuses why didn't they "study the Word (especially the Jewish B'rit Chadash) to show thyself approved" (2 Timothy 2:15) ). Especially if they knew enough to recognize that something wasn't right (e.g. manmade traditions, hypocrisy, etc.).

    Jeremiah 1:12
    Then Adonai said to me, “You have seen well, because I am watching to fulfill my Word.”

    John 1:1-5
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:10-14
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
    11 He came unto his own, and His own received Him not.
    12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 21:25
    25 But there are also many other things Yeshua did; and if they were all to be recorded, I don’t think the whole world could contain the books that would have to be written!

    The LORD GOD Bless You Abundantly With His LOVE
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2016
  15. Pentateuch and Yeshua

    Pentateuch and Yeshua Active Member

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    Who said I don't believe paul existed? Paul's validity is what's in question, not his existence. I do know that Caesarion also known as Iesous Barabbas and Barnabas had a son who pretended to be Jewish and tried to win his grandfather's empire for himself through the creation of a religion and was killed by the Romans who took his religion for themselves, so, Yes, I'm fairly certain Paul existed , I'm just asking for any evidence that Paul was valid (without quoting Paul, Luke who relies on Paul's validity, or the psuedopigraphic, 2nd century-authored "2 Peter" quote that gets misused), since I can't find any. I'm not arguing against him per se, just, if you read the post, asking what evidence there actually is that convinces people that he was a true apostle.
     
  16. 613jono

    613jono Member

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  17. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    I do think that there are things that Paul wrote that have not been interpreted properly. I have grown from believing that his writings are to be condemned to believing that they are there, in the canon, for a purpose condoned by G-d himself.
     
  18. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    I think that is good perspective that you came to. There sure are false ideas around even from some having understood single passages from Paul wrongly with their interpretation, which then is imposed on other things they read.

    If Paul was a false apostle, which is what some seem to strain from whatever they find that wouldn't be convincing to most, then the gospel of salvation he spoke of isn't right, and yet I see agreement between him and other passages of the new testament of the Bible, along with Isaiah 53, that Christ died, the sinless who was perfect, as the Lamb of God, in place of sinners, and rose again, that with believing faith we would come to Christ repenting of our ways of sin, and have the atonement for our redemption, with relationship with God as was meant for us, through Christ. Paul says this, and I find it in other passages, and this would not be the case with what would come from a false apostle. And I find that there are those saying Paul was false dismissing this atonement and not recognizing that gospel of salvation to be true. And basis they may see is with so many saying they are believers dismissing works including what is shown from commandments from God, with their interpretation that the necessary faith to have doesn't need them, or others, to have such.

    The point that I really wanted to make was that threads were closed over argument about Paul, though such are very infrequent, and even Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses were required to move to that other forum for posting their positions when Unorthodox Theology was replaced with Controversial Theology, and those members, who are not considered Christian, are not excluding Paul from the scriptures, and it doesn't seem that those moderating the Controversial Theology forum, for those they see as Christians, will see such who are arguing against Paul, with apparently their disagreement with the gospel, as Christians. So in view of this it doesn't seem a good choice of a forum for that. What I suggested is now old, but at least it was an established thread, even if it is not desirable for this now. The Christianity and World Religions forum is still open to any Christians as well, anyone can post their positions there, except perhaps atheists, as I don't know if their position will be considered as a world religion, there are atheists in these forums still having their places to post their views.
     
  19. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    If not direct evidence for him, there is no evidence against him.
    We know the writings are from the right time period. If Paul had
    been a false apostle and teacher, surely at least some of the twelve
    would have denounced him publicly, and in writing. There is no
    hint of any such split between him and them.
     
  20. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    That's a really good point. Why should evidence in the scriptures be excluded, even with lack of known external evidences? Why hold Paul to greater need of standards than Christ, who doesn't have such external evidences of his claims? With Christ we have what we need from testimony in the scriptures, and knowing that witnesses to his resurrection went to their death willingly for the testimony to it, and the undeniable empty tomb where Christ's body had been laid and where it had been sealed.

    With Paul there is the same gospel preached, even to his death, with cooperation among the apostles, and no real discrepancies other than something or another that can be explained, same as the rest of scriptures. With no real basis showing for it some false apostle!
     
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