The Most Passionate Science Deniers Are Pro-Trans ‘Experts’ Who Profit From Carving Up Kids

[Sparagmos]

Have you ever been to a water park and seen some of those McDonald's filled monsters? The majority of overfed Americans have at least a b-cup.

Snark aside...I suppose it would depend on what definition people are using for "kids"

If "kids" means ages 4-9...then probably not

If "kids" means "anyone under 18"...then yes. If there are doctors willing to perform these procedures on minors (people under 18), I think it's at least a fair topic for debating whether or not it's really in the best interests of people.

More Trans Teens Are Choosing ‘Top Surgery’ (Published 2022)

Small studies suggest that breast removal surgery improves transgender teenagers’ well-being, but data is sparse. Some state leaders oppose such procedures for minors.

www.nytimes.com

I included an NY Time articles so that way it can't be claimed that it's "conservative bias"

Any time we're letting young people make major life altering decisions before we trust them with a beer, I think it's at least fair to ask some questions.

I just think referring to older teens as "kids" is intentionally misleading in the context.

 

[Kylie]

You're not a psychologist. People kill themselves for many reasons. Regardless, the real problem is you don't know how many kill themselves.

But the people who do the studies do.

But no, you don't care about that because it doesn't suit what you wish to believe. So find a way to ignore it.

For starters, I live in the US....so I didn't even bother with Australia.

Yeah, who cares about those Australian trans people. The USA is the center of the world!

Secondly none of those numbers are suicide rates.

These are suicide rates...

Suicide statistics

Learn the latest statistics on suicide. Data on suicide are taken from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Data & Statistics Fatal Injury Report for 2018, as of March 1, 2020. Suicide rates listed are Age-Adjusted Rates.

afsp.org

See? 1.2 million people in the US attempt suicide but only less than 50k succeed. If that 50k is a minority amongst the characteristics of the attempts....then I'd be focusing on the wrong group if I dealt with people who attempted suicide first.

Wow. How do you not see the ridiculousness of your position?

Every person who actually commits suicide is a person who attempts suicide. They are the ones for whom the attempt is successful.

If you deal with the issues that drive people to attempt suicide, then you will as a result reduce the number of people who make successful attempts at suicide.

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

.And who commits suicide the most?

Middle age white men....that's right...number 1 again. Probably because our lives are too easy from all this privilege. Perhaps it's because all this oppression we're doing is really exhausting work. Personally, I think it's because we eventually realize that we're surrounded by idiots who don't know how to even identify a problem, let alone solve it, and that doesn't stop them from ruining the lives of everyone around them.

So now that you know what suicide rates are....can you tell me what the trans youth suicide rate is?

Maybe because men are raised to think that showing emotion is weak, so they bottle everything up?

In any case, this is just an attempt to change the subject, so I'm not going any further with it.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I just think referring to older teens as "kids" is intentionally misleading in the context.

I think it's fitting...

While I get what you're saying...when people on the right say "kids", they're trying to make people visualize a 3rd grader when we're actually talking about 15-16 year olds for effect...

At the same time just because 16 year olds are more mature and more physically developed than 10 year olds, that doesn't meant that they're not prone to irrational, short-sighted, fad-based, thinking based on what's considered "edgy" or "cool" for the day.

If my parents would've let me do whatever I wanted when I was 15-16 based on what "I was 100% sure I wanted", I'd be stuck with some stupid tattoos that I'd regret now that I'm 39. And if I was 100% sure of "who I am" when I was 16, I'd still be wearing a bunch of silly goth stuff 23 years later.

The same reason we don't let 16 year olds drink, is the same reason we shouldn't let them make big life-altering decisions.

It's a tough age...they're not a "little kid" and they understand things and in certain ways you can have an adult conversation with them, but at the same time, they're still prone to some stupid thinking when they're 16 and desperate to get social acceptance in whatever societal group they've chosen to hitch their wagon to.

And to be honest, that behavior extends well past 16 for a lot of people, there are 22 year olds who still exhibit that kind of thinking (evidenced by the fact that 21-24 year old represent that largest piece of the pie when it comes to drunk driving related accidents) ...but we had to set the legal age of adulthood somewhere.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I just think referring to older teens as "kids" is intentionally misleading in the context.

I think telling people that these procedures are necessary is intentionally misleading.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it's fitting...

While I get what you're saying...when people on the right say "kids", they're trying to make people visualize a 3rd grader when we're actually talking about 15-16 year olds for effect...

At the same time just because 16 year olds are more mature and more physically developed than 10 year olds, that doesn't meant that they're not prone to irrational, short-sighted, fad-based, thinking based on what's considered "edgy" or "cool" for the day.

If my parents would've let me do whatever I wanted when I was 15-16 based on what "I was 100% sure I wanted", I'd be stuck with some stupid tattoos that I'd regret now that I'm 39. And if I was 100% sure of "who I am" when I was 16, I'd still be wearing a bunch of silly goth stuff 23 years later.

The same reason we don't let 16 year olds drink, is the same reason we shouldn't let them make big life-altering decisions.

It's a tough age...they're not a "little kid" and they understand things and in certain ways you can have an adult conversation with them, but at the same time, they're still prone to some stupid thinking when they're 16 and desperate to get social acceptance in whatever societal group they've chosen to hitch their wagon to.

And to be honest, that behavior extends well past 16 for a lot of people, there are 22 year olds who still exhibit that kind of thinking (evidenced by the fact that 21-24 year old represent that largest piece of the pie when it comes to drunk driving related accidents) ...but we had to set the legal age of adulthood somewhere.

No disagreement with most of this....and I can certainly understand why the OP wants to keep the focus on medical treatments....or even just surgery. The problem is though, there's a laundry list of demands and requests for privileges and exceptions that are essentially coming from the same group....and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that you can obstruct in one way but accept in another.


The curriculums of young children, the sports issues, the sex segregated spaces, constant undefining and redefining of terms, medical procedures for children, pronouns, etc.

It's not one thing. These activists or subset of activists have an ideological view of the world that they believe they are right to impose upon people by any means and they blame anyone who objects as being part of their problem.

I used to consider the issues individually but I just don't anymore....I think they should be stonewalled until they can either honestly argue for their requests or pursue legitimate avenues of change through competence.

I'm not the only person who remembers when they used to complain about being murdered. It's the same tactic. People will die if you don't help. The only problem is that....we keep a pretty close eye on murders and people looked at the numbers. They weren't in any sort of serious danger.

Now they have this new medical model that blames society for their gender dysphoria....and they cannot be wrong about their trans identity. They've got parents going to doctors who give them pills of questionable effectiveness and no long term understanding of the effects. Why? Because they're told they'll commit suicide.

Except....there's no real evidence of that.


This whole thing stinks.....and the idea that we're doing it to little kids (at least with the social transitioning) is messed up. England, Sweden, France, and others have wholesale rejected the science as flawed and pulled the plug on the affirmative care model....because they were starting to see the results.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But the people who do the studies do.

Then why didn't they include that in their paper?

I mean seriously....you've linked how many articles now and none have a suicide rate. You don't think that's odd?

But no, you don't care about that because it doesn't suit what you wish to believe. So find a way to ignore it.

Regardless of what I believe there's no evidence of what you believe.

Yeah, who cares about those Australian trans people. The USA is the center of the world!

I can't vote in Australia....

Wow. How do you not see the ridiculousness of your position?

Every person who actually commits suicide is a person who attempts suicide. They are the ones for whom the attempt is successful.

If you deal with the issues that drive people to attempt suicide, then you will as a result reduce the number of people who make successful attempts at suicide.

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Maybe because men are raised to think that showing emotion is weak, so they bottle everything up?

In any case, this is just an attempt to change the subject, so I'm not going any further with it.

Ok...I've hinted at it twice before but now I'm just going to tell you....


Women report suicidal ideation more than men. Women attempt suicide more than men.


Men commit suicide more than women.

How much more? 80% of suicides.


If we went by the way you think....women would be committing suicide vastly more than men. Instead you're completely 100% wrong....because at group levels, suicidal ideation and suicide attempts don't predict who will actually kill themselves.

That's why every single site you listed is worthless.

 

[Kylie]

Regardless of what I believe there's no evidence of what you believe.

I've provided sources. You choose to ignore them because it's not what you wish to believe. It is impossible to have a civilized discussion with you.

 

[Bradskii]

I just posted that the suicide rate was highest amongst middle aged white men....but I've also seen Alaskan natives. I don't expect you to spend any time posting anything about it.

Not in this thread you won't. And I don't expect you to post anything about Aborigal suicides or the rate of suicides of European immigrants from Africa or that of single men over sixty in Italy either. Because this thread is about transgenderism. So I'll restrict myself to that, thanks. And I'd appreciate you doing the same.

And personally I will concern myself with anyone who thinks that they may be transgender because I know the problems that they have. From listening to people such as have posted on this thread to being denigrated in some of the media, to being accused of being sporting cheats to even suggestions that they are perverted in some way. I know from personal experience the problems associated with a family member going through this trauma. And it is a trauma. For everyone concerned. The sheer horror of finding out a loved one has taken their life is only a phone call away.

That it's treated with almost flippant disregard by so many, that it's claimed to be 'promoted' as a money making exercise by 'carving up' people, it honestly turns my stomach.

You and some others consider this simply to be a stand for conservatism. Another bumper sticker to slap on the car to rail against the liberals. Another argument to promote 'family values'. Because hey, those Dems want your kids! They want to destroy what we have!

You literally have no idea of what this actually means to people. Literally no idea. And what depresses me is that you are intent on not making any attempt whatsoever to find out.

 

[rjs330]

Oh, kids have breasts now?

You must not know any kids if you asked this question.

 

[ximmix]

So if we imagine a hypothetical scenario where you stand in front of two doors leading to two rooms of 100 people each. In the room on the right, every 5 minutes, a person will kill themselves successfully. In the room on the left, some people are thinking about suicide, a smaller number will try but fail and survive.

Do you mean that the people in the room on the right suddenly killed themselves without thinking about it first or attempting it (at least once)?

 

[rjs330]

That it's treated with almost flippant disregard by so many, that it's claimed to be 'promoted' as a money making exercise by 'carving up' people, it honestly turns my stomach.

Did you not see the video? That's exactly what they were doing as a reason to start the program.

 

[Bradskii]

Did you not see the video? That's exactly what they were doing as a reason to start the program.

Again, you have no idea how this impacts people. Discussions like this are an utter waste of time. You have a mind set and that's the end of it. There is zero empathy being exhibited here. None whatsoever.

 

[rjs330]

Again, you have no idea how this impacts people. Discussions like this are an utter waste of time. You have a mind set and that's the end of it. There is zero empathy being exhibited here. None whatsoever.

Our empathy IS demonstrated to these poor folks by not wanting them to be chemically castrated and physically mutilated when 80% of them desist later. Why on earth someone would think thats good to do is beyond me.

That's not compassion in the least.
Real compassion would be to help them through this period so when they desist they are not dealing with the struggles of what they did to their bodies that they can't change back.

 

[KCfromNC]

s because I understand how to solve problems KC!

If you say so.

Months later after sifting through vastly larger data sets....you come up with a completely different answer that for some reason, don't get pulled over for DUIs. The mayor can't believe you're still working on this as I solved the issue weeks ago and the population of people drinking and driving is already decreasing.

Nice hypothetical. Not sure how it applies here, since as previous posts have admitted, this alleged data can't be found

I'm asking for basic data....the exact data your entire position is built upon.

Which position is that, specifically? The one where I'm not convinced waiting until after people are dead before allocating health care resources to them is the best idea?

So if I'm supposed to believe this is a real problem.....and not the kind of problem that I only ever have to hear about because the world is filled with fools who can't tell left from right....we're going to need to know what the suicide rate of this group actually is. Otherwise, it looks like you've been duped into advocating for this despite not knowing anything.

And we're back to name-calling.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you say so.



Nice hypothetical. Not sure how it applies here, since as previous posts have admitted, this alleged data can't be found

I didn't say it can't be found....I'm almost certain it can. I said I can't find it. You most certainly can't either. It probably exists somewhere....but for some reason, doesn't get referenced.

Which position is that, specifically? The one where I'm not convinced waiting until after people are dead before allocating health care resources to them is the best idea?

The one where you seem willing to reorganize many aspects of society to accommodate a suicidal group....that may not actually be suicidal.

It's a pretty interesting position I'll admit.

And we're back to name-calling.

I didn't call out anyone specifically. Nor did I associate them as members of an identifiable group.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you mean that the people in the room on the right suddenly killed themselves without thinking about it first or attempting it (at least once)?

It doesn't matter....

The hypothetical is about the importance of priorities. We aren't asking people to help every group with suicidal ideation or even those that attempt suicide....these are vastly larger groups.

We're talking about a group that is going to kill themselves. If we want to find the groups most likely, we look at the suicide rates.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not in this thread you won't. And I don't expect you to post anything about Aborigal suicides or the rate of suicides of European immigrants from Africa or that of single men over sixty in Italy either. Because this thread is about transgenderism. So I'll restrict myself to that, thanks. And I'd appreciate you doing the same.

I don't suppose you know their suicide rates in the US, do you?

And personally I will concern myself with anyone who thinks that they may be transgender because I know the problems that they have.

How do you know their problems?

Are you transgender?

From listening to people such as have posted on this thread to being denigrated in some of the media, to being accused of being sporting cheats to even suggestions that they are perverted in some way. I know from personal experience the problems associated with a family member going through this trauma.

Uh huh.

And it is a trauma. For everyone concerned. The sheer horror of finding out a loved one has taken their life is only a phone call away.

Oh I'm familiar with suicide.

That it's treated with almost flippant disregard by so many, that it's claimed to be 'promoted' as a money making exercise by 'carving up' people, it honestly turns my stomach.

Well here's the thing....

This is a huge deviation from what we as a society would normally consider safe or even helpful it's something to be given serious consideration separated from anyone's personal feelings on the topic.

We don't typically let children diagnose themselves. We don't typically use drugs on children with little to no understanding of the long term effects. We don't typically perform surgery on children that's both permanent and purely cosmetic.

So whatever your feelings are....stuff them away, put on your big boy pants, and give me a good reason for doing these things and evidence of that reason.

I'd rather not live in a place that haphazardly experiments on children and destroys their lives because some people are "emotional".

You and some others consider this simply to be a stand for conservatism.

Not me...can't speak for anyone else.

Another bumper sticker to slap on the car to rail against the liberals.

Nope.

Another argument to promote 'family values'. Because hey, those Dems want your kids! They want to destroy what we have!

No...I don't even claim to be a highly moral person. I understand, innately, that children have to be protected because they cannot protect themselves. I don't even have children....but if suddenly a large group of people suggest we start treating children very differently for some reason I innately believe that should be given as serious consideration as possible.

There are societies that frankly, don't protect children at all, and they are loathsome to me.

You literally have no idea of what this actually means to people.

No more or less than you.

Literally no idea.

Do you imagine that you do?

And what depresses me is that you are intent on not making any attempt whatsoever to find out.

I fundamentally can't "find out" what they are experiencing. It appears to be a singularly unique experience so anyone who isn't trans cannot possibly really understand what that is like.

Whatever you imagine about this that you "understand" ....you don't. You could spend the rest of your life speaking to trans people about "what it's like" but it appears to be a thing that has to be experienced to be known.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've provided sources. You choose to ignore them because it's not what you wish to believe. It is impossible to have a civilized discussion with you.

Wait a moment....

I just pointed out that despite women both reporting more suicidal ideation and attempt suicide more often....men committed suicide more often.

Those are gender groups. Those are two different genders.

I can prove, beyond any doubt, that when we look at gender groups....suicidal ideation and suicide attempts aren't correlated to actual suicides.


That's why every study... every article....every link you posted was basically worthless. I can understand why you made your mistake. You figured if a group thought about suicide a lot, and attempted suicide a lot, they probably kill themselves a lot.


That's not how it works though....at least not when looking at gender groups.


If anything you should be thanking me. You can't imagine how tedious this is. It was right in front of you the whole time.

 

[Bradskii]

How do you know their problems?

Are you transgender?

No, but my niece is. So yeah, I know their problems.

 

[rjs330]

It doesn't matter....

The hypothetical is about the importance of priorities. We aren't asking people to help every group with suicidal ideation or even those that attempt suicide....these are vastly larger groups.

We're talking about a group that is going to kill themselves. If we want to find the groups most likely, we look at the suicide rates.

If we are really concerned about the suicide issue there was a study done in Sweden that indicated people who underwent the transitioning had higher suicide ratea than those who didn't. This was like a long term study. So it appears those so concerned about suicide ought to be more concerned about the consequences of those who actually transitioned and killed themselves later.