The Most Passionate Science Deniers Are Pro-Trans ‘Experts’ Who Profit From Carving Up Kids

[Ana the Ist]

No, but my niece is. So yeah, I know their problems.

You know what it's like to feel like a woman in a man's body?

@Bradskii I can't imagine what kind of life you've had where you believe you're able to approximate a feeling from your imagination. There are, in my mind, some experiences so unique they cannot be approximated and most people will never go through them.

Ask a young man going to war what he expects it to be like and ask him if he was correct when he gets back. It's a resounding no every time. You can't imagine such things. In fact, these sorts of realizations can frequently become the reason for why one might not try to explain the experience of something unique or the way it feels becomes obvious....there's no way to understand.


So to sit there....and say "my niece told me this"....that's real nice. I don't think you understand though. Try telling a blind man about color, try telling a completely deaf person about music, perhaps I'm wrong....maybe they can perfectly understand.


It doesn't appear that way though and frankly, you'll never have any more understanding of being trans than myself or any other non trans person.

 

[Bradskii]

You know what it's like to feel like a woman in a man's body?

@Bradskii I can't imagine what kind of life you've had where you believe you're able to approximate a feeling from your imagination. There are, in my mind, some experiences so unique they cannot be approximated and most people will never go through them.

Ask a young man going to war what he expects it to be like and ask him if he was correct when he gets back. It's a resounding no every time. You can't imagine such things. In fact, these sorts of realizations can frequently become the reason for why one might not try to explain the experience of something unique or the way it feels becomes obvious....there's no way to understand.


So to sit there....and say "my niece told me this"....that's real nice. I don't think you understand though. Try telling a blind man about color, try telling a completely deaf person about music, perhaps I'm wrong....maybe they can perfectly understand.


It doesn't appear that way though and frankly, you'll never have any more understanding of being trans than myself or any other non trans person.

I have absolutely zero interest in discusing this with you.

 

[Kylie]

If we are really concerned about the suicide issue there was a study done in Sweden that indicated people who underwent the transitioning had higher suicide ratea than those who didn't. This was like a long term study. So it appears those so concerned about suicide ought to be more concerned about the consequences of those who actually transitioned and killed themselves later.

The question is WHY did they kill themselves?

Could it be because the people who transitioned were essentially advertising the fact that they were trans, and so received a lot more harassment and bullying, and that drove them to suicide, whereas those who did not transition received less bullying because it wasn't as obvious that they were trans?

 

[Don't Panic]

If we are really concerned about the suicide issue there was a study done in Sweden that indicated people who underwent the transitioning had higher suicide ratea than those who didn't. This was like a long term study. So it appears those so concerned about suicide ought to be more concerned about the consequences of those who actually transitioned and killed themselves later.

Link

 

[Bradskii]

The question is WHY did they kill themselves?

Could it be because the people who transitioned were essentially advertising the fact that they were trans, and so received a lot more harassment and bullying, and that drove them to suicide, whereas those who did not transition received less bullying because it wasn't as obvious that they were trans?

From the person who did the survey:
'Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more in line with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.' Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal

 

[Kylie]

From the person who did the survey:
'Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more in line with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.' Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal

So, the best thing for trans people is to let them socially and medically transition if they want to, and don't treat them like garbage for being trans.

Who would have thought that not letting people be themselves and treating them like garbage would increase their risk of suicide, while letting people be themselves and treating them with respect would lower their risk of suicide? Hoodathunkit?

 

[Bradskii]

And a much larger study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acps.13164

Objective
This study explored the overall suicide death rate, the incidence over time, and the stage in transition where suicide deaths were observed in transgender people.

Methods
A chart study, including all 8263 referrals to our clinic since 1972. Information on death occurrence, time, and cause of death was obtained from multiple sources.

Results
Out of 5107 trans women (median age at first visit 28 years, median follow-up time 10 years) and 3156 trans men (median age at first visit 20 years, median follow-up time 5 years), 41 trans women and 8 trans men died by suicide. In trans women, suicide deaths decreased over time, while it did not change in trans men. Of all suicide deaths, 14 people were no longer in treatment, 35 were in treatment in the previous two years. The mean number of suicides in the years 2013–2017 was higher in the trans population compared with the Dutch population.

Conclusions
We observed no increase in suicide death risk over time and even a decrease in suicide death risk in trans women. However, the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning. It is important to have specific attention for suicide risk in the counseling of this population and in providing suicide prevention programs.

 

[Don't Panic]

From the person who did the survey:
'Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more in line with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.

What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.' Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal

Here is the Swedish Paper. It is not surprising that it shows a negative output because the control group was people without gender dysphoria or other symptoms. Will add to that, the study covered a period maximally from 1973 to 2003. Attitudes have changed a bit since then.
On the other hand I also found this:

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery Are Significantly Less Likely To Experience Psychological Distress Or Suicidal Ideation​

BOSTON, April 28, 2021—A new study published today in JAMA Surgery found that gender-affirming surgery is associated with improved mental health outcomes among transgender people. The study was authored by researchers at Harvard Medical School, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, The Fenway Institute at Fenway Health, and the Department of Psychiatry, Massachusetts General Hospital. It is the first large-scale, controlled study to demonstrate an association between gender-affirming surgery and improved mental health outcomes and adds important new knowledge to the field as there is little high-quality evidence regarding the mental health effects of gender-affirming surgery. Link to full paper

This study actually uses an appropriate control group and surprise, the outcome is positive.

 

[Don't Panic]

If we are really concerned about the suicide issue there was a study done in Sweden that indicated people who underwent the transitioning had higher suicide ratea than those who didn't. This was like a long term study. So it appears those so concerned about suicide ought to be more concerned about the consequences of those who actually transitioned and killed themselves later.

Wrong control group your study
A large well done recent study

 

[rjs330]

The question is WHY did they kill themselves?

Could it be because the people who transitioned were essentially advertising the fact that they were trans, and so received a lot more harassment and bullying, and that drove them to suicide, whereas those who did not transition received less bullying because it wasn't as obvious that they were trans?

This was 10 years or so after transition. They weren't any happier than before. You can speculate all you want but yout speculation is only that.

 

[Kylie]

This was 10 years or so after transition. They weren't any happier than before. You can speculate all you want but yout speculation is only that.

Well, why don't you tell me. Why did they take their own lives?

 

[rjs330]

Here is the Swedish Paper. It is not surprising that it shows a negative output because the control group was people without gender dysphoria or other symptoms. Will add to that, the study covered a period maximally from 1973 to 2003. Attitudes have changed a bit since then.
On the other hand I also found this:

This study actually uses an appropriate control group and surprise, the outcome is positive.

That's not a long term study. It's meaningless as its only a couple of years.

 

[rjs330]

Well, why don't you tell me. Why did they take their own lives?

Isn't that the question here? Was it answered in the studies?

All we know is that they did. The question is are they better off long term after transition in comparison to those that were diagnosed but didn't.

Apparently if 80% desist from being trans then the other 20% didn't.

If they are so satisfied then why are 80% desisting? If they are so satisfied then why are they still killing themselves?

I'm not going to offer speculation. Just facts. That is transitioning is not helping despite what trans activists claim. And the FACT that 80% desist tells you that kids should not be transitioning or be pushed to transition.

You should really read up on detransitioners. There is a lot of information and sites involving them.

Once again you show yourself very uninformed. More and more of them are speaking out about the issues. And we are going to see more of this as time goes on.

You just keep flatly ignoring the facts. I posted a lot of information regarding what is really happening with kids being pushed into transitioning without the proper psychological and medical care.

Other countries are starting to see this and end the programs and push to allow kids to transition.

Come back to us after you do more thorough research on this. Quit falling for the trans activists talking points.

 

[Kylie]

Isn't that the question here? Was it answered in the studies?

All we know is that they did. The question is are they better off long term after transition in comparison to those that were diagnosed but didn't.

Apparently if 80% desist from being trans then the other 20% didn't.

If they are so satisfied then why are 80% desisting? If they are so satisfied then why are they still killing themselves?

I'm not going to offer speculation. Just facts. That is transitioning is not helping despite what trans activists claim. And the FACT that 80% desist tells you that kids should not be transitioning or be pushed to transition.

You should really read up on detransitioners. There is a lot of information and sites involving them.

Once again you show yourself very uninformed. More and more of them are speaking out about the issues. And we are going to see more of this as time goes on.

You just keep flatly ignoring the facts. I posted a lot of information regarding what is really happening with kids being pushed into transitioning without the proper psychological and medical care.

Other countries are starting to see this and end the programs and push to allow kids to transition.

Come back to us after you do more thorough research on this. Quit falling for the trans activists talking points.

Ah, so you disregard my position as supposition, and yet you fail to see that your position that transitioning doesn't help is just as suppositional.

 

[rjs330]

Ah, so you disregard my position as supposition, and yet you fail to see that your position that transitioning doesn't help is just as suppositional.

I provided facts. You supposed. Quite a difference.

Finland Looks Reasonable on Gender Transition for Minors

Reason on the subject of gender transition for minors is increasingly prevailing on the international scene. With Finland's

www.frc.org

 

[Kylie]

I provided facts. You supposed. Quite a difference.

Finland Looks Reasonable on Gender Transition for Minors

Reason on the subject of gender transition for minors is increasingly prevailing on the international scene. With Finland's

www.frc.org

What facts? You admitted in post 193 that the REASON they took their lives wasn't mentioned. You're supposing too.

 

[rjs330]

What facts? You admitted in post 193 that the REASON they took their lives wasn't mentioned. You're supposing too.

What do you mean what facts? I said the long term studies showed people who transitioned had high suicide rates. You guys were all concerned about the suicide rates if you didn't transition. Well guess what. It turns out transitioning is not godsend you claim.

As it turns out countries are now backing away from that.

And the OP is correct that professional proponents stand to make a great deal of money off it in the kids market. And as I proved they aren't even doing my it it right which further illustrates the point.

 

[Kylie]

What do you mean what facts? I said the long term studies showed people who transitioned had high suicide rates. You guys were all concerned about the suicide rates if you didn't transition. Well guess what. It turns out transitioning is not godsend you claim.

As it turns out countries are now backing away from that.

And the OP is correct that professional proponents stand to make a great deal of money off it in the kids market. And as I proved they aren't even doing my it it right which further illustrates the point.

The fact about WHY they took their own lives.

You claim I am just supposing that trans people who transition take their own lives because of the people who treat them like garbage.

Yet you are just supposing that people who target them because they are transitioning have nothing to do with it.

 

[Bradskii]

What do you mean what facts? I said the long term studies showed people who transitioned had high suicide rates.

Anyone who has made the slightest attempt to study this matter already knows that suicide rates among transgender people are high compared to the general population. No-one has suggested otherwise or has said that if a person transgenders then that is an end to their problems. And you might wonder why they are so high. Well here's a suggestion. Negative comments about transgender people are legion. And cumulative. Apart from the physical and mental trauma they go through, every derogatory comments hits hard and chips away at their self esteem.

But hey, we're only trying to to help! What negative comments? Well, I've trolled through this thread for a few minutes and picked out some random comments.

Transgenderism denigrates the reality of bodily sex...
Carving Up Kids...
...mutilating kids...
Transgender sex change operations are illogical, unnecessary and a waste of medical resources.
Should kids be allowed to cut off their arms if they want to?
...biased adults around them that wish to increase the ranks of their agenda's armies.
Hacking up children...
...it's so obviously satanic...
...have to deal with the fallout of such lunacy...
...chopping off perfectly healthy complete body organs.
This kind of surgery is a huge money maker.
Yes let's have competent surgeons to mutilate kids.
...parading their genitalia in front of children and happens to also be a sex offender.
...girls in a locker room who are forced to change in front of a male?
...bodies mutilated by chopping off perfectly healthy body parts.
Would you engage in a long term sexual relationship with a trans man?
Have you seen their genitalia? The disguise fails.

If you had a family member who was already a risk for ending her own life, how do you think you'd feel after reading those comments about what she was going through? And more like them (plus a lot infinitely worse) day after day after day? It's denigrating? Satanic? And check out their genitalia!

Would you be prepared for her to read them? Or would you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to keep her away from such comments and away from those who make them?

 

[rjs330]

Anyone who has made the slightest attempt to study this matter already knows that suicide rates among transgender people are high compared to the general population. No-one has suggested otherwise or has said that if a person transgenders then that is an end to their problems. And you might wonder why they are so high. Well here's a suggestion. Negative comments about transgender people are legion. And cumulative. Apart from the physical and mental trauma they go through, every derogatory comments hits hard and chips away at their self esteem.

But hey, we're only trying to to help! What negative comments? Well, I've trolled through this thread for a few minutes and picked out some random comments.

Transgenderism denigrates the reality of bodily sex...
Carving Up Kids...
...mutilating kids...
Transgender sex change operations are illogical, unnecessary and a waste of medical resources.
Should kids be allowed to cut off their arms if they want to?
...biased adults around them that wish to increase the ranks of their agenda's armies.
Hacking up children...
...it's so obviously satanic...
...have to deal with the fallout of such lunacy...
...chopping off perfectly healthy complete body organs.
This kind of surgery is a huge money maker.
Yes let's have competent surgeons to mutilate kids.
...parading their genitalia in front of children and happens to also be a sex offender.
...girls in a locker room who are forced to change in front of a male?
...bodies mutilated by chopping off perfectly healthy body parts.
Would you engage in a long term sexual relationship with a trans man?
Have you seen their genitalia? The disguise fails.

If you had a family member who was already a risk for ending her own life, how do you think you'd feel after reading those comments about what she was going through? And more like them (plus a lot infinitely worse) day after day after day? It's denigrating? Satanic? And check out their genitalia!

Would you be prepared for her to read them? Or would you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to keep her away from such comments and away from those who make them?

You know what, I'd be very very very concerned for them. Because most of what was said is true. People are encouraging kids to get chemically castrated and to chop off perfectly healthy body parts in order to "try and help them" when the facts bear out long term they are not helping them. They are just making a lot of money.

Meanwhile these kids are now trying to detransition and have a lot of struggles. Or they are just as messed up as they were before the transition and are still committing suicide.

I would be doing everything in my power to stop it knowing that in about ten years they would desist on their own if not sooner. I would do everything I could to find them a psychologist that would help them through this time and help them accept living and being in the body they were born with.

If your kid came to you and said, dad I am really struggling with my body. I want to chop off my arm or may leg would you perfectly okay with that?

Then what do you do if you allow it and then in 5-10 years they come to you and say it was a huge mistake and there is nothing you can do to fix it?

You need to spend time on some detransitioning sites to see what they are going through.