The most dreaded situation... (sigh)

Greek2Me

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Well, here I am again, facing the one situation I dread more than just about anything else. I'd rather have the flu or diahrea or even be forced to watch back-to-back reruns of “The View” than deal with what I'm looking at. You'd think that, being a Christian for over forty years, I'd have developed some strategy or pat answer for this, but I haven't. In fact, I was ordained with the Churches Of Christ in Christian Union (think Nazarene or Wesleyan) last summer, but even that's not making it any easier. If anything, it's just getting tougher each time...

Someone has died.

It wasn't someone I even knew. Actually it was the mother of a woman my wife has known for several years, but isn't terribly close with. Her friend was a Christian several years ago, but has “fallen away from her first love”, and now attends a very liberal and “affirming” church. (Don't EVEN get me going on THAT one, that's a whole 'nuther issue...) But the point is, her mother has passed, rather quickly, though not totally unexpected, as she was (I believe) in her eighties. So there will be a viewing and a funeral, hence my situation.

You see, when someone passes who clearly loved God and gave clear testimony of their faith, we can celebrate their “Promotion” as it were, and offer assurance and comfort, even to any “unchurched” friends or relatives that the person truly IS “...in a better place.” But once more I expect that I will find myself pressured to reassure this woman that, not only is her mother “not suffering”, but that she is, in fact, being welcomed by St. Peter as we speak and will be escorted to a mansion, handed a harp, and blissfully happy throughout all of eternity. Please pardon my thinly veiled sarcasm... It's not that I treat this matter lightly, quite the contrary, to me it is the most important issue of ALL, because the situation is both eternal and unchangable. And THAT is exactly the crux of my problem...

Now is not the time for evangelism. Everybody is grieving, and “nobody wants to hear about 'hellfire and brimstone' now!” I get that. But when things were going well, nobody wanted to hear it THEN because, “Well, religion is a PERSONAL matter, so you should just keep that to yourself!” So when WAS the time to talk about a biblical perspective on death??? And what the heck do you say NOW, when it IS too late to affect her eternal state? And those who are still alive, who could (and SHOULD) make spiritual decisions just don't want to feel “pressured” at this time. No, what they want is somebody “religious” to tell them that “Edna (or Martha or Paulette, or WHATEVER her name was) is really ok right now, and when THEIR time comes (which won't be for YEARS, right?), they will be ok too!”

So here's the bottom line; Scripture tells us that “It is appointed ONCE for a man to die, and then Judgement.” (Heb 9:27) That means, no reincarnation, but an accounting before all knowing Deity for the life they have lived, followed by an adjudication, and a resulting PERMANENT condition. And, from my conservative Wesleyan-Arminean, this is NOT, “Do my good deeds outweigh my bad ones?”, but plain and simple, “Did the departed have a current and vital faith relationship with Jesus Christ, trusting Him and Him alone for their salvation?” As both a Christian AND a minister, I don't feel that I can just stand there passively while people say a bunch of things that simply aren't so. “She was baptised as an infant, so of COURSE she went to heaven.” (Really?) “Everybody goes to heaven, because God loves everybody, and He wouldn't send anybody to hell, if it even exists at ALL!” (That's not what Jesus said, now IS it?)

I've had a couple of pastors tell me, “Tell them, 'Your loved one is in the hands of a loving and compassionate God', and then say no more. It's not for you to judge.” Well, I see the wisdom of that, since (obviously) I don't know the persons spiritual condition, and even if I did, it STILL isn't my call. But it just seems a bit “thin”. Many are looking for comfort, and I don't see what I can offer to the family that MAYBE shows up at church on Easter Sunday, but really doesn't have time for God the other 51 weeks of the year. And even less so when the deceased gave no evidence of interest in spiritual matters, or perhaps even displayed hostility towards God. It's too late to do anything about it now (for THEM certainly), and like I said, I have a VERY hard time listening as people invoke what I would term “folk theology” to convince themselves that what the Bible say about the issue of an afterlife can be dismissed or “reworked” to suit the listeners.

So my question is this: What do YOU say when someone CLEARLY not a believer in Christ has died, and mourners want to hear you say good things (or at least, agree with the false things they are asserting), to paint a rosie eternity, without “getting preachy” about it?

Christ clearly came and gave His life so that we might receive eternal life, neither fearing nor dreading this event. But unbelievers (perhaps ESPECIALLY) seem to be grasping at straws as they sense that there is a finality here, and they desperately need reassurance that, DESPITE all evidence to the contrary and any biblical knowledge they may possess, there is yet hope that the deceased is at peace, rather than suffering torment.

God is going to have to give me MUCH grace and wisdom, but I just dread this all to often occurence. Thoughts and suggestions to offer some hope without agreeing (directly or by tacit approval through silence) with "folk theology"?

Maranatha.
 

Paidiske

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I've had a couple of pastors tell me, “Tell them, 'Your loved one is in the hands of a loving and compassionate God', and then say no more. It's not for you to judge.” Well, I see the wisdom of that, since (obviously) I don't know the persons spiritual condition, and even if I did, it STILL isn't my call. But it just seems a bit “thin”. Many are looking for comfort,

It looks to me like the core of your issue is here. They are looking for comfort - definite, strongly affirmed comfort - and you can't offer it to them.

Maybe that's the point. Maybe they need to encounter their discomfort. Maybe that's inviting them to a deeper exploration of the issues in their lives. Isn't it in that deeper exploration that they might find a firmer hope?

Maybe your task is not to offer comfort but to ask the questions which open that up for scrutiny. Maybe not the day of the funeral (let's face it, nobody's processing much that day), but later, when there is time for thought and reflection?

That's my reaction, anyway.
 
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chevyontheriver

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So my question is this: What do YOU say when someone CLEARLY not a believer in Christ has died, and mourners want to hear you say good things (or at least, agree with the false things they are asserting), to paint a rosey eternity, without “getting preachy” about it?
Modern funerals are basically canonizations, and everybody is a Saint. Five hundred and one years ago funerals were about praying for the person who died. There was no presumption of sainthood for all. You might not agree with how it was done five hundred and one years ago, but this silly automatic canonization of everyone who dies was not a problem then. It's expected now.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Well, here I am again, facing the one situation I dread more than just about anything else. I'd rather have the flu or diahrea or even be forced to watch back-to-back reruns of “The View” than deal with what I'm looking at. You'd think that, being a Christian for over forty years, I'd have developed some strategy or pat answer for this, but I haven't. In fact, I was ordained with the Churches Of Christ in Christian Union (think Nazarene or Wesleyan) last summer, but even that's not making it any easier. If anything, it's just getting tougher each time...

Someone has died.

It wasn't someone I even knew. Actually it was the mother of a woman my wife has known for several years, but isn't terribly close with. Her friend was a Christian several years ago, but has “fallen away from her first love”, and now attends a very liberal and “affirming” church. (Don't EVEN get me going on THAT one, that's a whole 'nuther issue...) But the point is, her mother has passed, rather quickly, though not totally unexpected, as she was (I believe) in her eighties. So there will be a viewing and a funeral, hence my situation.

You see, when someone passes who clearly loved God and gave clear testimony of their faith, we can celebrate their “Promotion” as it were, and offer assurance and comfort, even to any “unchurched” friends or relatives that the person truly IS “...in a better place.” But once more I expect that I will find myself pressured to reassure this woman that, not only is her mother “not suffering”, but that she is, in fact, being welcomed by St. Peter as we speak and will be escorted to a mansion, handed a harp, and blissfully happy throughout all of eternity. Please pardon my thinly veiled sarcasm... It's not that I treat this matter lightly, quite the contrary, to me it is the most important issue of ALL, because the situation is both eternal and unchangable. And THAT is exactly the crux of my problem...

Now is not the time for evangelism. Everybody is grieving, and “nobody wants to hear about 'hellfire and brimstone' now!” I get that. But when things were going well, nobody wanted to hear it THEN because, “Well, religion is a PERSONAL matter, so you should just keep that to yourself!” So when WAS the time to talk about a biblical perspective on death??? And what the heck do you say NOW, when it IS too late to affect her eternal state? And those who are still alive, who could (and SHOULD) make spiritual decisions just don't want to feel “pressured” at this time. No, what they want is somebody “religious” to tell them that “Edna (or Martha or Paulette, or WHATEVER her name was) is really ok right now, and when THEIR time comes (which won't be for YEARS, right?), they will be ok too!”

So here's the bottom line; Scripture tells us that “It is appointed ONCE for a man to die, and then Judgement.” (Heb 9:27) That means, no reincarnation, but an accounting before all knowing Deity for the life they have lived, followed by an adjudication, and a resulting PERMANENT condition. And, from my conservative Wesleyan-Arminean, this is NOT, “Do my good deeds outweigh my bad ones?”, but plain and simple, “Did the departed have a current and vital faith relationship with Jesus Christ, trusting Him and Him alone for their salvation?” As both a Christian AND a minister, I don't feel that I can just stand there passively while people say a bunch of things that simply aren't so. “She was baptised as an infant, so of COURSE she went to heaven.” (Really?) “Everybody goes to heaven, because God loves everybody, and He wouldn't send anybody to hell, if it even exists at ALL!” (That's not what Jesus said, now IS it?)

I've had a couple of pastors tell me, “Tell them, 'Your loved one is in the hands of a loving and compassionate God', and then say no more. It's not for you to judge.” Well, I see the wisdom of that, since (obviously) I don't know the persons spiritual condition, and even if I did, it STILL isn't my call. But it just seems a bit “thin”. Many are looking for comfort, and I don't see what I can offer to the family that MAYBE shows up at church on Easter Sunday, but really doesn't have time for God the other 51 weeks of the year. And even less so when the deceased gave no evidence of interest in spiritual matters, or perhaps even displayed hostility towards God. It's too late to do anything about it now (for THEM certainly), and like I said, I have a VERY hard time listening as people invoke what I would term “folk theology” to convince themselves that what the Bible say about the issue of an afterlife can be dismissed or “reworked” to suit the listeners.

So my question is this: What do YOU say when someone CLEARLY not a believer in Christ has died, and mourners want to hear you say good things (or at least, agree with the false things they are asserting), to paint a rosie eternity, without “getting preachy” about it?

Christ clearly came and gave His life so that we might receive eternal life, neither fearing nor dreading this event. But unbelievers (perhaps ESPECIALLY) seem to be grasping at straws as they sense that there is a finality here, and they desperately need reassurance that, DESPITE all evidence to the contrary and any biblical knowledge they may possess, there is yet hope that the deceased is at peace, rather than suffering torment.

God is going to have to give me MUCH grace and wisdom, but I just dread this all to often occurence. Thoughts and suggestions to offer some hope without agreeing (directly or by tacit approval through silence) with "folk theology"?

Maranatha.

I find that non-believing friends are just waste of time , they turn you away from God and when they die they will suffer eternal fire . The sad part about it is that you will not remember any of things you ever did with that friend because these memories will be removed so you can't be sad because God promised that there will be no more sad or tears in heaven .

If you could remember anything you did with your friend and then notice that he is not here in heaven with you then you would be sad .

So it's pointless to have friends who are non-believers . You should always give them gospel but if they constantly choose not to believe then best part is just separate from them and move on .
 
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JIMINZ

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You seem to have a pretty good handle on what you perceive the situation to be.

You have come to the point in your life where YOU are now the representative of what your particular Denomination has always presented as Truth in all situations, these Truths therefore are not your judgments upon the person in question, but what is actually taught from the Pulpit as Doctrine.

You will be talking to people who have either nominal or no understanding of the ramifications of Death and the finality of it upon the spirit of a man.

I am sure by now, you have Prayed about the situation in which you find yourself, I am also sure God has already given you the answer, by the Spirit which has spoken to your heart, therefore the only advice which can be offered to you is, be true to God, yourself, and the teachings which you know and believe.

You personally have a choice to make, I wish those words you are dreading to hear didn't have to be said,... but.

It isn't a matter of what people will think or say about you, but it is a matter of, where will these people spend Eternity, do they need to hear the Truth, or a Lie?

When your time comes, will you hear the words.

"Well done, thou good and faithful servant."


He will never leave you, NOR forsake you.
 
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Tolworth John

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Her friend was a Christian several years ago, but has “fallen away from her first love”, and now attends a very liberal and “affirming” church.

If you have been asked to take the funeral and have yet to discuss the format of the service. Be honest about your non liberal views.

As she has fallen from her first love, that does not mean she was not saved, only a backslidden disobedient Christian.

You can on that basis offer Christian comfort and preach the gospel to a liberal non believing family and friends.

If you are clear that you will preach a conservative evangelical surmon, they may ask someone else to perform.
 
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Greek2Me

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Maybe that's the point. Maybe they need to encounter their discomfort. Maybe that's inviting them to a deeper exploration of the issues in their lives. Isn't it in that deeper exploration that they might find a firmer hope?

Thanks for the reminder. In today's era of "non-offensiveness", I sometimes forget that people sometimes need to hear what they have no desire to hear. That's part of the Christian's task, isn't it? To declare an unpopular message, but to ALWAYS do it in a loving fashion. I'm working on that last part (sigh)
 
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Greek2Me

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I find that non-believing friends are just waste of time , they turn you away from God and when they die they will suffer eternal fire . The sad part about it is that you will not remember any of things you ever did with that friend because these memories will be removed so you can't be sad because God promised that there will be no more sad or tears in heaven .

If you could remember anything you did with your friend and then notice that he is not here in heaven with you then you would be sad .

So it's pointless to have friends who are non-believers . You should always give them gospel but if they constantly choose not to believe then best part is just separate from them and move on .

I've got to disagree with you on a couple of point...

First, sharing the Gospel with my non-believing friends is both my obligation and my privilege! (Finding the right time and WAY is often my dilemma, hence the original post...)
If I don't share Christ, who WILL???

As to "these memories will be removed", I hardly think so! Many say that we will not remember those who didn't make it into heaven, but I believe we will not only remember them, but have a far greater understanding of WHY they are not there. You see, at the Judgement we will, for the first time, actually understand the depth of God's love and mercy, how that, time after time He offered them grace, forgiveness, and opportunity to accept His Son and eternal life. But they DIDN'T. So, it would actually be WRONG for God to "drag them into heaven", forcing them to live with the One that they rejected all of their lives. God will be TOTALLY vindicated, and there will be no sadness that they are not present, overshadowed by the overwhelming joy that, at LAST, all is as it should be. Christ's mercy has been applied to all who received it, and those who refused it have also received fair treatment. It could be no other way, and even their "lostness" is to God's glory, because it didn't HAVE to be this way.

Just sayin...
 
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Greek2Me

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It isn't a matter of what people will think or say about you, but it is a matter of, where will these people spend Eternity, do they need to hear the Truth, or a Lie?

Thanks to you also, as I stated above, I need to be reminded that it is about their spiritual state, NOT how I feel about their opinions of me. But again... I need to say WHATEVER is said humbly and in love.

I think I may need to have that last part tattooed on my forehead so I see it again before I leave the house each morning.
 
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Greek2Me

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If you have been asked to take the funeral...

Thankfully, this is NOT the case. I suppose I am just venting my frustration about attending funerals (and even viewings) in general. Chevyontheriver pretty well summed it up as:

Modern funerals are basically canonizations, and everybody is a Saint.

It's just hard to listen quietly when everything IN me wants to shout, "It didn't have to BE this way! For THEM, it is too late, but for YOU (the living), there is still time!"

Related note: One of my professors commented about his approach to preaching funerals thus:

"Avoid the understandable desire to over emphasize the present happiness of the recently departed saint. Instead, always and only preach Christ, Him crucified, raised, ascended and returning in glory. Let me explain why:

A dear saint passed in a church I pastored, and I simply preached Christ, without going into her current "state of bliss". The following month, her husband passed as well. He was well known as a drunkard, a carouser, a violent and scourge of a man. At his funeral, I preached essentially the same message I had given previously at his saintly wife's funeral.

How would it have appeared to the survivors if I had gone on and on about how she was enjoying the blessings of heaven the first time, but remained totally silent regarding Paradise when I spoke the later to the same crowd?

I've never forgotten that admonition.
 
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So my question is this: What do YOU say when someone CLEARLY not a believer in Christ has died, and mourners want to hear you say good things (or at least, agree with the false things they are asserting), to paint a rosie eternity, without “getting preachy” about it?

There's a man I'm working with who was a sniper in the gulf years and years ago. And he took many, many lives - in his words 'sent them to hell'. But he didn't really send them to hell, did he? He sent them to Christ.

John 5:21-26

22 Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son

This is the same Christ who died for us. Whose words on the cross were "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."

1 John 2:2

2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So there is a view that a soul may be damned because they never accepted Christ, rejected Him their whole lives. And that may be true of some. For others, I would say they may just be meeting Him for the very first time. I do not think that all such meetings go badly. It were better if the process was started here - then life on Earth becomes the beginning, the borderland of Heaven.

At any rate, in her death she has gone to meet Christ. He is a good and true judge.

Amen.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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I've got to disagree with you on a couple of point...

First, sharing the Gospel with my non-believing friends is both my obligation and my privilege! (Finding the right time and WAY is often my dilemma, hence the original post...)
If I don't share Christ, who WILL???

As to "these memories will be removed", I hardly think so! Many say that we will not remember those who didn't make it into heaven, but I believe we will not only remember them, but have a far greater understanding of WHY they are not there. You see, at the Judgement we will, for the first time, actually understand the depth of God's love and mercy, how that, time after time He offered them grace, forgiveness, and opportunity to accept His Son and eternal life. But they DIDN'T. So, it would actually be WRONG for God to "drag them into heaven", forcing them to live with the One that they rejected all of their lives. God will be TOTALLY vindicated, and there will be no sadness that they are not present, overshadowed by the overwhelming joy that, at LAST, all is as it should be. Christ's mercy has been applied to all who received it, and those who refused it have also received fair treatment. It could be no other way, and even their "lostness" is to God's glory, because it didn't HAVE to be this way.

Just sayin...

I said "you should always share gospel " so you need to read more carefully
 
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Paidiske

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Thanks for the reminder. In today's era of "non-offensiveness", I sometimes forget that people sometimes need to hear what they have no desire to hear. That's part of the Christian's task, isn't it? To declare an unpopular message, but to ALWAYS do it in a loving fashion. I'm working on that last part (sigh)

Yes, but maybe - if they're already feeling uncomfortable - you don't need to declare much at all. The "unpopular" part is already making them uneasy. I guess I was saying I'd avoid offering false comfort, because having to travel with their discomfort may drive them to seek comfort in Christ; and then you have your opportunity to offer hope and encouragement.
 
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Greek2Me

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I said "you should always share gospel " so you need to read more carefully

Sorry, I guess I read "conflicting messages". You began saying

find that non-believing friends are just waste of time

and concluded with

So it's pointless to have friends who are non-believers

I just see it as difficult to present the Gospel to those who you would view in such a light.

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
 
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Greek2Me

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There's a man I'm working with who was a sniper in the gulf years and years ago. And he took many, many lives - in his words 'sent them to hell'. But he didn't really send them to hell, did he? He sent them to Christ.

I would just see this as a worldly euphemism for "killed them", nothing more. Think about it: if he shot a Christian, he didn't "send them to hell", did he?

But yes, in another sense, all who die (or are killed) appear next before Christ.
 
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Little Lantern

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A few rambling thoughts here that may or may not be any help at all-

The truth is, this is not a Christian funeral, and you can not make it into one. Maybe you could simply focus on what it is- the remembrance (celebration?) of this person's earth life. You could share or have family/friends share stories and memories of her.

When dealing with the "religious lost," familiar Scriptures like Psalm 23 can bring comfort and open hearts to Truth without them feeling like you are force feeding them gospel.

Also, have you considered sharing/weaving the gospel through a prayer rather than through a message. In prayer you are talking with God, so you are not confronting the people directly, but they would be listening in as you "thank God for sending life and peace through His Son Jesus, and so on...."

By the way, when is the funeral, and what is your part in it, so we can be praying for you.
 
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Greek2Me

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Thanks, Little Lantern for your
few rambling thoughts
. They are actually quite helpful in guiding me in future situations.

As I posted previously, I am not "officiating" at this service, and in fact may only go to the viewing, if that. It would be to support my wife as she supports her friend. But my predicament arises several times each year, whenever someone passes but has left little, none or even hostile testimony towards the Lord. Somebody else posted:

You will be talking to people who have either nominal or no understanding of the ramifications of Death and the finality of it upon the spirit of a man.

And that is my situation. Forty years ago, people seemed to have a much better sense of spiritual things. But now it is so shallow, filled with Hollywood ideas or folk theology, and it seems the survivors would MUCH rather hear you tell them that "The Force" is with their departed than Christ the Lord. And I must confess, I am NOT and have not been much of a "comforter", I'm much more a "just the facts" kind of preacher. To me, it is too important to spend much time on "How do you FEEL about this?" But God has been dealing me me often lately about the need to at least be AWARE how people feel and why. Jesus preached a clear and definitive message, but always wrapped in compassion. He drew them NEARER, rather than driving them away. That is CLEARLY my need, to develop the habit of sharing the Gospel at every opportunity (even funerals), but in such a way as to invite further contemplation later, rather than further upsetting those already upset by the loss.

Just talking out loud, I guess, but appreciative of forum members who've listened and commented. Forty five years walking with God, and STILL trying to get a handle on this marvelous Gospel, how to share it with those all around who DESPERATELY need to hear it so they may invite the Lord into their lives before it is too late.

Maranatha, all!
 
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chevyontheriver

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It's just hard to listen quietly when everything IN me wants to shout, "It didn't have to BE this way! For THEM, it is too late, but for YOU (the living), there is still time!"
Reminds me of a homily by St. John Chrysostom. He reminded a group of women who were mourning the death of a friend, all concerned for her salvation, that the time to have done something, said something, anything, was BEFORE she died.

Happily for me I don't have the responsibility of figuring out what to say at a funeral. But I do consider Chrysostom's admonition often, especially when I have missed an opportunity while a person was still alive.
 
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Sorry, I guess I read "conflicting messages". You began saying



and concluded with



I just see it as difficult to present the Gospel to those who you would view in such a light.

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

You don't need to be in friendship to share gospel , we should share it with every living creature and even our enemies .

But if person is always rejecting it just leave him in his state , maybe one day he will fall so low that he will repent .
 
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