The Most Common Theological Error in the Western Church Today

[OrthodoxyUSA]

 

[Jwlickliter]

Oh, you like math! Ok, divide 100% by three: you get 33.33. Now add them back together again and you get 99.99. In the trinity then: who get's that left over 1/10 of a percent?

Who's next in line? Who would deserve that tiny amount? .000000000001?

 

[Adstar]

Adstar you are doing what others have done to.me in the opposite. Which is not paying attention. I have had large discussions with the sinless perfectionist who has accused me of saying that I believe Christians can sin as much as they want to and it's ok.

Now you appear to be accusing me of being a sinless perfection believer.

I guess I have accomplished my task and that is to follow scripture which teaches neither is true. I wish you guys would listen instead of jump to conclusions.

You attacked my clear position on sinning and atonement by stating that my position supports the idea that the atonement id a license to sin.. Which is what i have had thrown at me from sinlessness in the flesh and works salvation believers for the last 15- 20 years i have been active on the internet on religious forums..

See the works salvation believers always paste this extreme license to sin straw man upon people who have embraced the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as their hope for eternity.. So i do not put up with this and make sure everyone knows the evil lying accusation that is being thrown upon me to nip it in the bud right away..

I have paid attention and responded to your posts .. And i see you don't like it when someone resists your accusing of the brethren and making out their position is an extreme position that it is not.. Whether your a sinlessness in the flesh believer or a works salvation believer of the mixed variety it makes no difference to me.. You are one who attacks the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and that i will stand against without hesitation..

It is continual will full sin that separates us from the atonement, not just any sin that a person does in a moment of weakness. I hope you hear that. You haven't been hearing me so far.

The word willful sin was not in your verse quote... I was the one who had to quote the verse with the word wilfull in it.. If it was up to you the word wilful would have never been known and simply deciding to sin would cause one to fall from salvation... That's what you quoted as the Word of God.. That's what you put forwards as being the infallible word of God to support your works salvation stance..

 

[Adstar]

How do you know your good works and impulses are the fruit of the spirit? How do you know you aren't faking it?

Because the impulse to do it and the desire to do it is emotional ... If i don't do it i feel guilty for failing to do it... I am more convicted of the good things i fail to do, then the bad things i have done...

I don't do good works to make a show to others trying to win some kind of adulation..

 

[AlexDTX]

I guess I should not have obeyed God's command to study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed. I should not challenge anything, as commanded, and just smell your...! So God said, "I set before you life and death, choose life that you me live". Do you think that somehow, to chose death is to chose life? Talk about pride! Kick me all you want: I'm dead! Yet, the life I live...

The letter kills(your theology, pharisaical religious nonsense) yes! But you are representing the character and nature of Law(pharisaical religious nonsense) according to Paul. I represent THEE Law: the God given instructions for life; both the Older Covenants and the Newer Covenants because, I see that they are like two pieces of a child's toy that fit perfectly together!

So go ahead, be just as anti-Semitic as the, so called, church fathers were! If you think that they were not anti-Semitic: read a book!

Apparently you don't recognize me. I am the ram with really big horns nuzzled up to Jesus over there. I got Big'uns if you think you can "but" heads!

The Gospel is simple. Even though there is great depth to what the Gospel accomplished, it was done so that a child could understand and be saved. We are called to have a faith in God like little children. Knowledge creates pride but love edifies. What you share does not edify. You condemned 2,000 years of the Church by claiming that we have been deceived by saints in the past. You don't see the pride and arrogance in what you are saying? After 2,000 years you have the truth and the Church has been deceived? This is the same claim of Joseph Smith.

We are not told to study to show our selves approved by academic research. We are told to study ways in our situations to demonstrate the love of Christ to the lost who hunger for the truth. Solomon declared that with much study comes weariness of the flesh but the heart of the matter is to obey God. You are tooting your own horn saying you are the ram with really big horns nuzzled up to Jesus. Do you really think that Jesus cares about your academic studies? He cares about your heart towards others.

This is what I meant by saying that you eat from the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life. What you say does not edify the Church. It condemns because we are too stupid to know what you think you know. There is no life in what you say, only death.

 

[rjs330]

What's the ratio?

Ratio? The Bible doesn't speak in ratios. It speaks in language. The language when it comes to sinning is in the verbs. What is the verbs tense? In the case we are talking about the verb is either aorist or present tense. Aorist is simple single action with no thought of ongoing actions. It happened once and it is done. Present tenses deal with ongoing continuous actions that occur presently and then continue. The passages of scripture such as Hebrews and in Paul's writings he talks of sinning in the present or continuous tense. It's not a one time deal.

I am not the judge of when that person loses the kingdom. I don't know. All I know is that the Bible says God is the judge and that it will happen. It is up to.me to warn people away from the sinful behavior using scripture to do so.

Sanctification is an ongoing process. It is not a one time act. As I walk in the spirit I get closer and closer to God and further and further from the flesh. I sin less frequently. Never coming to perfection, but becoming stronger and stronger in my faith and in my spiritual walk. That is walking in the spirit.

So what are we going to say? Should we continue sinning so grace will multiply?Absolutely not! All of us died to sin. How can we still live in it?Or don’t you know that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?Therefore, we were buried together with him through baptism into his death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too can walk in newness of life.If we were united together in a death like his, we will also be united together in a resurrection like his.This is what we know: the person that we used to be was crucified with him in order to get rid of the corpse that had been controlled by sin. That way we wouldn’t be slaves to sin anymore,because a person who has died has been freed from sin’s power.But if we died with Christ, we have faith that we will also live with him.We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and he will never die again. Death no longer has power over him.He died to sin once and for all with his death, but he lives for God with his life.In the same way, you also should consider yourselves dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus.So then, don’t let sin rule your body, so that you do what it wants.Don’t offer parts of your body to sin, to be used as weapons to do wrong. Instead, present yourselves to God as people who have been brought back to life from the dead, and offer all the parts of your body to God to be used as weapons to do right.Sin will have no power over you, because you aren’t under Law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6:1-14 - Common English Bible

We cannot live in sin. We can sin but shouldn't continually do so.

 

[rjs330]

You attacked my clear position on sinning and atonement by stating that my position supports the idea that the atonement id a license to sin.. Which is what i have had thrown at me from sinlessness in the flesh and works salvation believers for the last 15- 20 years i have been active on the internet on religious forums..

See the works salvation believers always paste this extreme license to sin straw man upon people who have embraced the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as their hope for eternity.. So i do not put up with this and make sure everyone knows the evil lying accusation that is being thrown upon me to nip it in the bud right away..

I have paid attention and responded to your posts .. And i see you don't like it when someone resists your accusing of the brethren and making out their position is an extreme position that it is not.. Whether your a sinlessness in the flesh believer or a works salvation believer of the mixed variety it makes no difference to me.. You are one who attacks the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and that i will stand against without hesitation..



The word willful sin was not in your verse quote... I was the one who had to quote the verse with the word wilfull in it.. If it was up to you the word wilful would have never been known and simply deciding to sin would cause one to fall from salvation... That's what you quoted as the Word of God.. That's what you put forwards as being the infallible word of God to support your works salvation stance..

I am sorry if it seemed I attacked you position. That was not my intent.

You attacked my clear position on sinning and atonement by stating that my position supports the idea that the atonement id a license to sin.. Which is what i have had thrown at me from sinlessness in the flesh and works salvation believers for the last 15- 20 years i have been active on the internet on religious forums..

See the works salvation believers always paste this extreme license to sin straw man upon people who have embraced the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as their hope for eternity.. So i do not put up with this and make sure everyone knows the evil lying accusation that is being thrown upon me to nip it in the bud right away..

I have paid attention and responded to your posts .. And i see you don't like it when someone resists your accusing of the brethren and making out their position is an extreme position that it is not.. Whether your a sinlessness in the flesh believer or a works salvation believer of the mixed variety it makes no difference to me.. You are one who attacks the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and that i will stand against without hesitation..



The word willful sin was not in your verse quote... I was the one who had to quote the verse with the word wilfull in it.. If it was up to you the word wilful would have never been known and simply deciding to sin would cause one to fall from salvation... That's what you quoted as the Word of God.. That's what you put forwards as being the infallible word of God to support your works salvation stance..

I am sorry about seemingly attacking your position. But I guess we all challenge each other's position right? That's what we do on these forums.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. - Hebrews 10:26-27 Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10:26-27 - American Standard Version

Here is the ASV version which has wilfull. The CEB uses the words "makes a decision". If you take a look at that it's the same thing. When you make a decision you are being deliberate about it right? A decision is a conscious choice to do something which is a wilfull act. So don't get too excited about the difference we are speaking the same thing here.

Perhaps I misunderstood your position. It appears you clearly misunderstood mine. If someone wilfully sins in a continual fashion after being saved will they eventually lose their salvation? I say yes according to Hebrews and Paul. What do you say?

Keep in mind it is not up to me when to judge that has happened, merely to warn people not to do so. God is the final judge of that, but I can warn them to stop or they may just lose the kingdom.

 

[pshun2404]

You obviously lack the ability to comprehend, or perhaps you have been misinformed. If I sin now it is rare but understand one thing. NO PERSON EVER is or will be sinlessly perfect until when we will be glorified at the parousia. That is the reason for Messiah. The genuine Christian (Romans 8:9), though they may still have sin in their life, are covered by the blood of Christ (its called Redemption). It is not a matter of "degree of sin" it is a matter of a grace through faith Righteousness (which is NOT of ourselves).

 

[Wordkeeper]

Because the impulse to do it and the desire to do it is emotional ... If i don't do it i feel guilty for failing to do it... I am more convicted of the good things i fail to do, then the bad things i have done...

I don't do good works to make a show to others trying to win some kind of adulation..

People feel guilty even without becoming Christians. Christians have the Holy Spirit so there must be something extra, what the Bible calls fruit. So are your fruit a discernibly different impulse or do you do good works with difficulty?

 

[Haipule]

Who's next in line? Who would deserve that tiny amount? .000000000001?

Silly isn't it?

 

[Haipule]

The Gospel is simple. Even though there is great depth to what the Gospel accomplished, it was done so that a child could understand and be saved. We are called to have a faith in God like little children. Knowledge creates pride but love edifies. What you share does not edify. You condemned 2,000 years of the Church by claiming that we have been deceived by saints in the past. You don't see the pride and arrogance in what you are saying? After 2,000 years you have the truth and the Church has been deceived? This is the same claim of Joseph Smith.

We are not told to study to show our selves approved by academic research. We are told to study ways in our situations to demonstrate the love of Christ to the lost who hunger for the truth. Solomon declared that with much study comes weariness of the flesh but the heart of the matter is to obey God. You are tooting your own horn saying you are the ram with really big horns nuzzled up to Jesus. Do you really think that Jesus cares about your academic studies? He cares about your heart towards others.

This is what I meant by saying that you eat from the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life. What you say does not edify the Church. It condemns because we are too stupid to know what you think you know. There is no life in what you say, only death.

[sigh]

 

[Jwlickliter]

Silly isn't it?

Yes it is.

 

[rjs330]

You obviously lack the ability to comprehend, or perhaps you have been misinformed. If I sin now it is rare but understand one thing. NO PERSON EVER is or will be sinlessly perfect until when we will be glorified at the parousia. That is the reason for Messiah. The genuine Christian (Romans 8:9), though they may still have sin in their life, are covered by the blood of Christ (its called Redemption). It is not a matter of "degree of sin" it is a matter of a grace through faith Righteousness (which is NOT of ourselves).

I agreed with your post then thought "I wonder if he is referring to me?"

I agree with you because John says

If we claim, “We don’t have any sin,” we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from everything we’ve done wrong.If we claim, “We have never sinned,” we make him a liar and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:8-10 - Common English Bible

So we do see that we all sin even as believers.

John also says this.

This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments.The one who claims, “I know him,” while not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in this person.But the love of God is truly perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know we are in him.The one who claims to remain in him ought to live in the same way as he lived. - 1 John 2:3-6 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2:3-6 - Common English Bible

The reconciliation between the two passages is relatively simple. It's just as I said earlier. The verbs used are present tense verbs. Which mean on going continuous sin. We combine that with Hebrews and we see a clear picture of the fact that we as believers do commit sin. However if we are walking in the light and faith in Christ and his righteousness in us then we remain on the right track. God knows our hearts and knows our faith and those sins will be forgiven because we also walk in repentance of those things.

However there are those who would walk in sin and sin wilfully and continually and walk away from the grace of God by their actions and unrepentant heart. Those are the ones who are not keeping his word in a continuous fashion.

 

[Jwlickliter]

I agreed with your post then thought "I wonder if he is referring to me?"

I agree with you because John says

If we claim, “We don’t have any sin,” we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from everything we’ve done wrong.If we claim, “We have never sinned,” we make him a liar and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:8-10 - Common English Bible

So we do see that we all sin even as believers.

John also says this.

This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments.The one who claims, “I know him,” while not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in this person.But the love of God is truly perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know we are in him.The one who claims to remain in him ought to live in the same way as he lived. - 1 John 2:3-6 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2:3-6 - Common English Bible

The reconciliation between the two passages is relatively simple. It's just as I said earlier. The verbs used are present tense verbs. Which mean on going continuous sin. We combine that with Hebrews and we see a clear picture of the fact that we as believers do commit sin. However if we are walking in the light and faith in Christ and his righteousness in us then we remain on the right track. God knows our hearts and knows our faith and those sins will be forgiven because we also walk in repentance of those things.

However there are those who would walk in sin and sin wilfully and continually and walk away from the grace of God by their actions and unrepentant heart. Those are the ones who are not keeping his word in a continuous fashion.

 

[Jwlickliter]

I fully agree with you. I been sinning all the way to my death bed.

 

[Jwlickliter]

I agreed with your post then thought "I wonder if he is referring to me?"

I agree with you because John says

If we claim, “We don’t have any sin,” we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from everything we’ve done wrong.If we claim, “We have never sinned,” we make him a liar and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1:8-10 - Common English Bible

So we do see that we all sin even as believers.

John also says this.

This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments.The one who claims, “I know him,” while not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in this person.But the love of God is truly perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know we are in him.The one who claims to remain in him ought to live in the same way as he lived. - 1 John 2:3-6 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2:3-6 - Common English Bible

The reconciliation between the two passages is relatively simple. It's just as I said earlier. The verbs used are present tense verbs. Which mean on going continuous sin. We combine that with Hebrews and we see a clear picture of the fact that we as believers do commit sin. However if we are walking in the light and faith in Christ and his righteousness in us then we remain on the right track. God knows our hearts and knows our faith and those sins will be forgiven because we also walk in repentance of those things.

However there are those who would walk in sin and sin wilfully and continually and walk away from the grace of God by their actions and unrepentant heart. Those are the ones who are not keeping his word in a continuous fashion.

Before God I was evil. After I found God I'm more good. But I'm still both.

Its what makes us human.

 

[Jwlickliter]

Before God I was evil. After I found God I'm more good. But I'm still both.

Its what makes us human.

You eat real food? Lol.

 

[Jwlickliter]

You eat real food? Lol.

Hi I'm Jason Lickliter saved by grace.

 

[Jwlickliter]

Hi I'm Jason Lickliter saved by grace.

That's my witness.

 

[Jwlickliter]

Search the internet. My sin is there. There's real proof.