The Millennium

[jgr]

Please provide the source for your meaningless opinion that dispensationalist believe Judas et al will ultimately be saved.


Quasar92

Won't those who "shall look upon me whom they have pierced" be saved?

 

[Quasar92]

Won't those who "shall look upon me whom they have pierced" be saved?

Yes indeed! After they see and recognize Jesus as their Messiah in His second coming, which Zech.12 is all about.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Yes indeed! After they see and recognize Jesus as their Messiah in His second coming, which Zech.12 is all about.


Quasar92

And isn't Judas among their number? Wasn't he one of the Jews who pierced Christ?

 

[Quasar92]

And isn't Judas among their number? Wasn't he one of the Jews who pierced Christ?

No! Judas will not be any member of the Israeli populous at the time of Jesus second coming. He betrayed Jesus and committed suicide in the first century. And is without a doubt. a member of those referred to in Rev.20:5; now in Hell and waiting for the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

No! Judas will not be any member of the Israeli populous at the time of Jesus second coming. He betrayed Jesus and committed suicide in the first century. And is without a doubt. a member of those referred to in Rev.20:5; now in Hell and waiting for the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15.


Quasar92

Judas was of the tribe of Judah of the House of David, who will be present on that occasion.

Otherwise, whom was Zechariah referring to as "they" when he wrote "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"?

 

[DeaconDean]

So why should I believe that Zechariah 14 has anything to do with the present age, and not the new earth age? Please show me scripture, not your opinion, that would make me want to believe that.

He can't.

He wants to restrict us from not commenting because most don't have some sort of degree, yet rarely does he present his own evidence. He often cites outside sources first, then proceeds.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LastSeven]

Why should you believe any teacher who has earned the qualifications to do so, rather than wantabe's who are not? There is nothing in our Bible, prior to the book of Revelation pertaining to anything other than the age we are living in, beginning with Adam and Eve.

The new age begins in Rev.21, with a new heaven and earth. Everything in our Bible prior to that, will take place in our present age, that has not already occurred, leaving the prophetic Scriptures yet to take place.


Quasar92

So you're saying that the new heaven and earth were not prophesied anywhere in scripture prior to Rev 21?

 

[jgr]

Judas was of the tribe of Judah of the House of David, who will be present on that occasion.

Otherwise, whom was Zechariah referring to as "they" when he wrote "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"?

So far, it still looks like we'll be seeing Judas in heaven.

 

[Quasar92]

So you're saying that the new heaven and earth were not prophesied anywhere in scripture prior to Rev 21?

That's not what I wrote, is it? I wrote when the event will take place.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

I wrote when the event will take place.

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　
2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　
2Pe 3:13　 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.　



When does the fire come?

2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　

2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　

2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　

2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.



Mat 13:36　 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."　

Mat 13:37　 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.　

Mat 13:38　 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.　

Mat 13:39　 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.　

Mat 13:40　 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.　

Mat 13:41　 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,　

Mat 13:42　 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.　

Mat 13:43　 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!　

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[Riberra]

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　

Don't you think that 2 Peter 3:8 define exactly the duration of the Day of the Lord....
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If you look at the description of the events to happen when Jesus will come as thief mentioned in Revelation 16:15-21> that does not look like the Earth will be dissolved in the beginning of the day...
Revelation 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done: 18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And great hail, [every stone] about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

 

[BABerean2]

Don't you think that 2 Peter 3:8 define exactly the duration of the Day of the Lord....
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If you look at the description of the events to happen when Jesus will come as thief mentioned in Revelation 16:15-21> that does not look like the Earth will be dissolved in the beginning of the day...
Revelation 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done: 18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And great hail, [every stone] about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

The greatest earthquake in the history of the planet...

Cities falling to the ground...

Every island being moved and the mountains being destroyed...

Giant hailstones...


It sounds like the end of this world to me.

If there were any mortals left after the above occurred, there would not be much of a place left for them to live on.


It is my personal belief that when His heel (Genesis 3:15) touches the Mount of Olives it will begin at chain reaction which will completely destroy this rotten, sin-cursed world.



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[Riberra]

The greatest earthquake in the history of the planet...

Cities falling to the ground...

Every island being moved and the mountains being destroyed...

Giant hailstones...


It sounds like the end of this world to me.

If there were any mortals left after the above occurred, there would not be much of a place left for them to live on.

.

So, no destruction of the Earth by fire in those passage Revelation 16:15-21 when Jesus will come as a thief ...and the Battle of Armageddon is still on the list of things to do at the agenda per Revelation 19.

 

[LastSeven]

So you're saying that the new heaven and earth were not prophesied anywhere in scripture prior to Rev 21?

That's not what I wrote, is it? I wrote when the event will take place.


Quasar92

Actually, it kinda is what you wrote. Let me quote you: "The new age begins in Rev.21, with a new heaven and earth. Everything in our Bible prior to that, will take place in our present age, that has not already occurred, leaving the prophetic Scriptures yet to take place."

So you literally said that everything prior to Rev 21 will take place in our present age, which means anything that does not take place in our present age (aka new heaven and new earth) was not spoken of prior to Revelation 21. Now, maybe you didn't mean to say that, but that is what you said.

Now, if you're saying that the new heaven and new earth were spoken of prior to Revelation 21, let me go back to my original question: Is it not possible that Zechariah 14 is referring to the new heaven and new earth?

 

[DavidPT]

Is it not possible that Zechariah 14 is referring to the new heaven and new earth?

Of course it is meaning during the new heavens and new earth, meaning some of it though, not all of it.

 

[LastSeven]

Of course it is meaning during the new heavens and new earth, meaning some of it though, not all of it.

Well Quasar seems convinced that Zechariah 14 refers to a future thousand year reign on this old earth. I'm not sure why and I'm trying to get him to explain it to me.

 

[BABerean2]

So, no destruction of the Earth by fire in those passage Revelation 16:15-21 when Jesus will come as a thief ...and the Battle of Armageddon is still on the list of things to do at the agenda per Revelation 19.

Rev 16:15　 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.　
Rev 16:16　 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.　



2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:　
2Th 1:9　 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;　
2Th 1:10　 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.　


When do you think 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 occurs, based on the text?

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[DavidPT]

Well Quasar seems convinced that Zechariah 14 refers to a future thousand year reign on this old earth. I'm not sure why and I'm trying to get him to explain it to me.

Logically speaking, it has to also involve the thousand years. Why?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is clearly meaning a time after Zechariah 14:8-11 is already true. These obviously can't be immortal saints, therefore that makes them mortal still. No mortal can live forever. So what happens to them once they have died? Don't they have to be judged as well? There can't be any more judgments once the great white throne judgment has concluded. Therefore the great white throne judgment has to be meaning a time beyond that of when Zechariah 14:16-19 initially begins, thus explained per Rev 20 and the thousand years, then satan's little season following that, followed by the great white throne judgment.

The fact these in the above might refuse to go up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, it's pretty easy to see who all might be included in the final rebellion after the thousand years.

 

[Trumpeter2]

No! Judas will not be any member of the Israeli populous at the time of Jesus second coming. He betrayed Jesus and committed suicide in the first century. And is without a doubt. a member of those referred to in Rev.20:5; now in Hell and waiting for the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15.


Quasar92

Jhn 6:39 - And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.

 

[DavidPT]

Won't those who "shall look upon me whom they have pierced" be saved?

Zechariah 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

This is key in determining the timeframe in mind.

Zechariah 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

What we need to look at next is ch 14.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

This sounds like the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:9. Let's skip ahead in Zechariah 14 to the following.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This explains why Zechariah 12:14 says----All the families that remain. Zechariah 12:14 is meaning after Zechariah 14:2-3. One thing that should be clear, regardless where one tries to fit the time of Zechariah 14:2-3, it can't fit around the time of the cross, and that Zechariah 14:16-19 indicates Zechariah 12:14 is meaning after the time of Zechariah 14:2-3, thus the only conclusion left, Zechariah 12:14 is still to occur in the future.

There is this also to consider.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Pretty certain this hasn't occurred yet. Could they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him, be referring to Zechariah 12:10-14? Maybe. I don't see why not.