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The Millennial Kingdom

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by tbrooks, May 16, 2002.

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  1. tbrooks

    tbrooks New Member

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    20.4-6 THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM

    20.4 Three classes of people will reign with Christ:
    (1) The overcomers will sit on thrones, and judgment will be given to them (20.4a). This shows that they have inherited the kingdom (see also Dan. 7.10, 18, 22-“Saints of the Most High”).
    (2) The martyrs throughout the 20 centuries (“them that had been beheaded”-20.4b). These are the souls under the alter as shown in the fifth seal (6.9f). It is for “the testimony of Jesus” that they are killed.
    (3) The martyrs during the Great Tribulation. These are those who do not worship the beast nor his image, and upon whose foreheads and hands no mark of the beast is received (20.4c).

    “They lived” – Let us notice two things:
    (1) These people are not resurrected at the time of 20.4. Their resurrection is merely retraced here as an accomplished fact. John does not see them resurrected at that moment; he only acknowledges that they live.
    (2) Those here who live include not only the resurrected but also those who are raptured alive; for we cannot assert that only those who are resurrected reign here with Christ; since even though the number of people who are raptured alive may not be great they nevertheless shall reign with Christ too.

    20.5 “The first resurrection”-This does not necessarily mean that there is only one resurrection, nor does it denote that there are many resurrections. It simply signifies this as being the “best” resurrection.

    The word “the” includes the two things mentioned in the last clause of 20.4:
    (1) “Lived” and (2) “reigned”: The best resurrection means to live and to reign. Such a resurrection is a reward, for there is a reigning with Christ for a thousand years as well as a being resurrected.

    “The second death” of 20.6 is in contrast with “the first resurrection”, because the latter means to enjoy glory while the former means to suffer eternally. Hence the first resurrection is none other than the time of recompense (Luke 14.14, 20.34-36).

    What Paul says in Philippians 3.11 is not an expecting to be raised from the dead (for all the dead shall be resurrected), nor an anticipating the resurrection of the spirit (for the resurrection of the spirit is already an accomplished at the time of new birth). No, what Paul is looking forward to is the “out-resurrection” from among the dead, which is the “best” resurrection spoken of here in 20.5, even a reigning with the Lord.

    Read again Philippians 1.23-25. There in that epistle’s first chapter Paul is saying he will live; he is not contemplating death. How, then, can he be talking about resurrection? He clearly states in Philippians 3.20,21 that he waits for the coming of the Lord. Consequently, what he anxiously hopes for is to reign with the Lord.

    “The rest of the dead” naturally includes all the unsaved sinners. Their resurrection will come to pass a thousand years later.

    20.6 “Blessed” should be translated literally as “happy”-Those who appear to be happy today may not be holy, while those who are holy can hardly be happy today.

    The first resurrection is blessed in three ways”
    (1) “Over these the second death hath no power”-The second death is the lake of fire. Those who have no part in the first resurrection may yet be hurt by the second death. Some Christians will be disciplined in the future (see Matt. 18.34,35) [like thrown into jail until fully repaid to a just God for not forgiving others]. He who wrongs his brother will be punished by the Lord (1 Thess. 4.5,6). We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has authority to cast into hell (Greek, gehenna), thus implying that over some Christians hell still has its threat (Luke 12.4,5). If a branch does not abide in Christ, he, like a branch, is liable to be cast off, withered, cast into the fire and burned (John 15.6).

    Some, though, may ask, Does not the Bible teach that once a person is saved he will never perish? Why then do you say here that Christians may appear as though to perish? This is due none other than to a misunderstanding of some Scripture verses such as the following:

    “He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original.
    “They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original.
    “Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original.
    [receives death according to what is due him]

    (2) “They shall be priests of God and of Christ”-The significance of a priest is to draw near to God. This people shall be very close to God for they shall have a special relationship with Him and Christ. Today we are priests, therefore all may draw nigh to God. But in the millennial kingdom only those who have part in the first resurrection shall function as priests to God and to Christ.

    Aaron functioned as a priest because his rod budded. The budded rod represents resurrection. Whoever is chosen priest is proven by [first] resurrection. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt they all were destined to be priests (Ex. 19.6). Due to their worshiping the golden calf, however, God later chose the family of Aaron to be priests.

    “They shall be priests…of Christ”, since at this time Christ shall receive worship as much as God himself is worshipped.

    (3) “And shall reign with him a thousand years”-As a rule, in Old Testament times no king was able to be a priest, and no priest, a king. But here is a people who are both priests and kings. As priests, they draw near to God; as kings, they rule over the earth. Only those who have suffered are entitled to reign and enjoy glory with Christ.

    Here we are told only the fact that they do reign, we are not informed as to how they reign. No doubt the reigning here is heavenly in nature. - by Nee

    Are there any other partial rapture believers out there so we may discuss more deeply?
     
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  2. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,670
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    Just a friendly reminder....Let's keep this conversation to the topic, and not resort to personal attacks. :) I have already had to move three posts out of this thread.

    John
     
  3. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Sorry papa bear
     
  4. tbrooks

    tbrooks New Member

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    V. As we have come to see, the first school [pre-trib rapture] lacks scriptural evidences while the second school [post-trib rapture], though it possesses many proofs, nevertheless has many errors too. What, then, does the Bible actually teach? Let us consider the following observations.

    A. Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23 ) . Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of’ (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.l0a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.


    B. Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experi-enced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34), If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

    C. Other proofs as follows:

    (1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

    (2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air”- Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

    (3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage re-lates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

    VI. Questions raised against separate rapture, and answers thereto, are submitted below.

    A. Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

    B. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.

    C. Some observers ask, Is it not rather cruel to take away hope from the church? To which we must answer that in the Scriptures there is no such false hope given; and therefore it is better to alert people to this fact.

    D. I Corinthians 15.23, say some, only mentions “they that are Christ’s” and that nothing is said about works. But let us be aware that this verse does not speak of rapture, it speaks of resurrection.

    E. Since the dead will not go through the Great Tribulation, would it not be unfair to the living for them to go through it? Will not the righteous God be unjust in this regard? In response, let me say that we do need to be concerned; for during the millennium each and every believer (including all believers who died prior to the Great Tribulation) will receive, as a consequence of appearing before Christ’s judgment seat, the things done in the body while alive, according to what he has done whether it be good or bad (2 Cor. 5.10).

    F. Since in 1 Cor. 15:50-52 (“We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed”) “all” is the word used, surely this signifies the whole body. Yes, the “all” here does indeed refer to the entire body, but it does not have reference to the same time. For example, we all will die, but certainly not all of us will do so in one day.

    G. There is a distinction made in the Bible between wheat and tares, some say, but no difference made between wheat and wheat; consequently, all wheat must be raptured. In reply, it should be noted that the times of ripening for wheat are not the same. Thus there are the firstfruits and the later harvest.

    H. Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured ) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, And the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

    by Watchman Nee
     
  5. tbrooks

    tbrooks New Member

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    Preterists - false reason because the Spirit of the Word is being lossed so they are arrogant and claim logic, but they are not and they do not touch the spirit of others. These also are very worldly, living in the world thinking what this is God's kingdom. It is dry, unfeeling and a heartless cult surrounding by the misinterpretation of the word generation just like pentecostals are surrounded by the word tongues. Preterists miss the glory of great Kingdom on earth to come (that is accessable by spirit only now to those with new birth) as well as the New Jerusalem in the New Heaven and New earth. The reason they are so dry is because they read the Bible like a legal document and miss the Spirit of the Word so naturally they are skewed in this way. God is not so restrictive. Preterists will also be shocked when Great Trib comes and this will squash their arrogance. This is what Great Trib is for. I have also noticed a war-like mentality. You may have noticed it yourself sort of a conquering mentality like Islam. These are all the bad fruits so watch out for these characters. They are quite troubling and I have no doubt they make up the Great Harlot. A preterist must die to this world he is trying to create and conquer. Not knowing this is Satan’s world is the mistaken assumption and will cause many problems. Lack of hope in not knowing the millennial kingdom is to come is another. When Jesus returns all will know, and not before.

    1. Pre-tribbers will be shocked and too weak when they go through Great Trib.
    2. Pre-wrathers will be shocked and too weak when they go through the bowls.
    3. Post-tribbers will be shocked when they are disciplined and punished for 1000 years while overcomers reign during the millennial kingdom.
    4. Ammellianists will be disciplined for 1000 years for being too much in their mind making things fit that don't fit
    5. The resurrection takes place all together at the end of Great Trib
    6. 1/7th of the Christians alive will be raptured alive at the beginning of pre Great Trib since there is no need for them to go through the time of testing for they could never be hurt by the second death.
    7. Israel is transferred livingly into millennial kingdom.
    8. Those from the millennial kingdom are transferred livingly into the new heaven and new earth
    9. Reigning is from a maturing of your own accord as well as true martyrdom which by its very nature is overcoming of your own accord.
    10. All Christians are saved but not all Christians reign
    11. Only Christians live in the New Jerusalem (this is Eve)
    12. As a non-Christian you will be resurrected 1000 years later and then thrown into the lake of fire
    13. Our spirit was resurrected at new birth
    14. The blessing of Rev. 1.3 is receiving motivation form God to overcome as well as seeing the different rapture views and knowing what type of Christian (or non-CHristian) a person is and where he is at in his spiritual walk in his obedience to the Lord, and maturity.
    15. From pre- (fantasy) to post- (hard people) you never go back to pre-
    16. From post- to pre-wrath (afraid of death, this is Satan's last stronghold).
    17. From post- to partial you can never go back once you truly know it in the conscience and intuition of your spirit.
    18. Ammelianists and preterists are devilish and not even worth our consideration and time. We should not spend so much time on the Satanic.
    19. Pre-only is fantasy oriented, inordinately confuse emotion for spirit. There is no motivation to overcome.
    20. Mid-only – just like pre-only but they feel more justified because they are not pre-
    21. Post-only – hard people because they wait for the antichrist. No hope for them to overcome.
     
  6. tbrooks

    tbrooks New Member

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    Partial Rapture of the kind talked about by Watchman Nee and Robert Govett is, I believe exactly what God meant. All the scripture fits like a glove for my spirit on this matter. In simple words, I will explain parts.

    1)Salvation is about believing in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit; overcoming is about spiritual maturity and rewards received in the millenial Kingdom which is there to motivate us to overcome. The reason those overcomers do not need to go through the Great Trib is because there is no need for testing since they can never be hurt by the second death. Non-overcoming Christians can still yet be hurt by the second death (I can provide scriptural evidence if you request it).

    2)Non-Christians will not be resurrected until WTJ, judged, and then thrown into the Lake of Fire. Again Christians can be hurt by it still meaning they can get scorched and will be punished but will be in the New Jeruselem when its done. Christians who are not overcomers will be receive their due punishment for a 1000 years during concurrently while Overcoming Christians reign with Christ in the glory of God's satisfaction of the millenial Kingdom similar to his day of rest and satisfation on the 7th day in Genesis.

    3)The 1st rapture takes place pre-Great Trib of the few matured overcomers in Christ (according to God's Word)will be raptured alive. All the other overcomers are the martyrs and dead in Christ of the past 20 centuries and the martyrs and overcomers of the Great Trib. These latter two are resurrected at the end of Great Trib. or Pre-Great Trib. The whole period from Pre-Great Trib Rapture of overcomers to the End of Great Trib rapture/resurrection is the "day of the Lord" for it is all major halmark in God's divine plan spelling Jesus's return. Once you know the first event of this part (Pre-great Trib rapture of overcomers to the last part) you know.

    4)The rest of Christians go through Great Trib will not receive the wrath of God but the wrath of Satan

    5)1st resurrection (+rapture of those yet alive overcomers) upon Jesus's return resurrects all those in Christ even those in Christ who are newly in Christ like those 144,000 who are the 12 tribes children of Israel who will come to Jesus in the last hour. Some of the 1st resurrection are resurrected at Pre-Great Trib and overcomers raptured alive here as well, albeit a fairly small bunch raptured alive.

    6)This 144,000 represents God's promise to the Jews and the nation of Israel to preserve their race. They have forsaken God, and even so, God with such love will keep his promise so that they can rule in the millenial Kingdom for a 1000 years (though not as kings). Here they can multiply like all nations. For it is quite obvious Jesus is Lord and all shall multiply and be fruitful.

    7)The overcomers are the reigning with Christ during the millenial Kingdom getting their alotted cities to reign over depending on their overcoming compared to other overcomers. Like the 10 bridesmaids, 5 will be at the feast. Same as 50% of Christians could partake in the millennial kingdom.

    8)Those during Great Trib. left remain untouched transfer livingly into the millennial kingdom where man still lives and dies.

    9)At the end of the millennial kingdom those left are transferred livingly into the New Heaven and New Earth. Not the New Jeruselem. People live and die in the millennial Kingdom.

    10)Christians are transferred into the New Jeruselem instead (like a giant cube as it is described in the Bible). Those in the New Heaven and New Earth receive life to and from and can enter the New Jeruselem. There is no hurt, no pain as those go to and from the New Jeruselem receiving from within it the everflowing tree of life (presuming they are willing to do this).

    11) Of interesting note is that the reason why Satan is unleashed one last time at the end of the millenial Kingdom before being permanently thrown into the lake of fire is that it is to show several things one being that there was still hidden sin, yes, even during the millenial Kingdom for of course there was still death in the millenial Kingdom. Millenial Kingdom was about rewards and God's satisfaction as best man will become given the power of sin whereas the New Heaven and New Earth is not about rewards for all are equal. In the millenial Kingdom one does not become born again for it is obvious Jesus is Lord standing before all reigning with an iron rod. We are individuals. This is God's desire after all this millenia for us to finally reach this point.

    12)Notice a very interesting observation. From the brutality of pre-endemic man, to Adamic man, to Mosaic man to Church man to the great cleansing of the the Great Trib to the "Individual" in the millenial Kingdom to the eternal man with no more tears it is all a gradual process by the love of God patiently waiting for us as we matured in Him. Is this not glorious?

    13) Between eternity past and eternity future is creation. Spanning above it all is heaven. Heaven knows no time like we do in our temporal creation out of God’s glory. So what appears to be only one rapture by God is in fact in our temporal existence in a two part rapture which is really only one as far as God is concerned since it spans Great Trib, the day of the Lord. We think one split moment. God's split moments are a little more complicated.

    1) 1st rapture/resurrection
    2) end of Great Trib rapture/resurrection

    This is done because there is no purpose for overcomers to go through Great Trib, albeit some may be overcomers in Great Trib.

    In a nutshell,
    1. The signing of the covenant with antichrist, which may or may not be public, begins the final week, the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy.
    2. In the middle of this period, the covenant is publicly broken with the abomination of desolation, and the Great Tribultion begins.
    3. Raptures, based on the maturity of the living believers and on the status of dead believers, either as martyrs or overcomers as determined by the Lord, occur at the beginning of the Great Tribulation and at the last trump: "those who are alive and remain." The rapture at the beginning of the Great Tribulation precipitates war in heaven and Satan being cast down out of heaven; the raptures at the end of the Great Tribulation precipate the defeat of antichrist at Armegeddon, and the binding of Satan for a 1000 years.

    Other than these facts, I have no sense of the Lord's timing.
     
  7. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Your typing to yourself, hahahahahahaa
     
  8. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
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    if you would just very briefly explain what you mean by partial rapture, I would appreciate it. It would help a lot in beginning any sort of reply.
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi,
    This topic has come up all over lately.

    For your consideration.

    The first resurrection...why would it be the 'best' resurrection if it was the 'first' resurrection? Would some resurrection to righteousness at some later date be 'poor'? I don't think so.

    Why would Jesus explain to John that it was the first resurrection if it was really third or fourth, but yes it was really a good one or the 'best'?

    Note that in Daniel 12:13 it explains that Daniel himself, an obvious candidate for resurrection to righteousness, would rest or 'sleep in the dust' until the time of the great tribulation. ( we learn that from the first few verses of chapter 12)

    It is made very clear that those of the 'first' resurrection Rev 20:4 and 6 would be in the 1000 year reign with Jesus. It is made equally as clear that the REST of the dead would not rise until after the 1000 years.

    Is Daniel in that REST of the dead? He has to be somewhere. Paul tells us that none of those who are alive at the coming will precede those who sleep.

    The obvious order at this point are :

    1)Whoever was on the thrones and however, they got there.
    2) Those of the 'first 'resurrection. So called in Rev 20:4
    3)Those who sleep in the dust, who had to include Daniel
    40 those alive at the coming.

    Then of couse there are those who "die from now on and will be blessed" of Rev.14:13 just before the coming on the clouds. NOte the words DIE FROM NOW ON.

    I don't see the rapture fitting in there anywhere.

    Justme
     
  10. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
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    Interesting, as Nee usually is. I am confused by the way events will unfold for the end-times and who will populate the milliniel kingdom - "reign of Iron" that the Bible speaks of, where Jesus rule is not questioned anymore. It seems that, again, spiritual and physical relms meet here on earth, again, for a time, as in Eden - then the second resurrection and on to the new earth. ..?? I see the scriptures that support this, and all the other explainations leave them out of their explainations which seems to be the case for every end-time doctrine I've ran across. There are always scriptures that don't have an answer or seem to fit the doctrine they support.

    Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    Micah 4:6-8 In that day, declares Yahweh, I will assemble the lame and gather the outcasts, Even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant and the outcasts a strong nation. And Yahweh will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever. As for you, tower of the flock, hill of the daughter of Zion, to you will come - even the former dominion will come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem.

    1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations
    with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

    Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the
    nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine
    press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

    Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
     
  11. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Could we have some insight into the resurrection of the dead regarding human bodies

    that have now decayed and literally been converted to dust and those that have completely disintegrated.

    When Jesus resurrected, the bodies of saints that were buried in graves also resurrected.

    Jesus's body had not decayed and one can assume the saints in Matthew 28:52-53

    had not totally disintegrated (bodies in tomb) as well. Lazarus was raised after a few days in death and his body had not totally decayed into grave dust yet

    but regarding the likes of people who died centuries ago whose graves have even

    been totally wiped out, not to mention complete disintegration and dust to dust

    conversion of dead remains well over hundreds of centuries old, where are they going to be resurrected from? Which bodies would be seen? A glorified body must be formed from

    some earlier existing body, right?

    Jesus was resurrected from his tomb and his body was available in death (only 3 days and nights), likewise those saints who resurrected with him resurrected from existing non disintegrated remains in tombs Matthew 28:52-53 (not totally decayed and converted to dust). The tombs had not been crushed by caterpillars, road , foundation excavating equipment etc..

    Many graves (hundreds of millions) have been destroyed by numerous road, house constructions, excavations over the centuries, earthquakes, floods, farms, foundations, countless activities over all these years and how can those lost literally dustlike remains be resurrected? What about those cremated, burnt in chmbers etc?

    One is not disputing resurrection, far from it. It is just that whenever we have had resurrections, the bodies have been available as in Jesus's case, Lazarus and the saints that resurrected from existing tombs/graves after Christ's resurrection.
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi,
    The bodies of centuries old people are dust because that is what the bible says will happen.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    The bible tells us there is two choices/options/states/whatever of bodies, the natural/physical/earthly body and the eternal/spiritual/heavenly body. The bible does not tell us how this takes place, only that the spiritual/ heavenly state is AFTER the natural. 1 Cor 15

    Where do you see that the bible tells us that dust has to be put back in to any previous natural state?
    Where does the bible say there is something after the heavenly state?

    Justme
     
  13. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Yes, as I said hundreds of millions have turned into dust agreeing with the Bible.

    My question was based on what happened as far as resurrections that HAVE ACTUALLY taken place in the Bible which involved remains that resurrected from tombs .

    The saints that resurrected DID NOT APPEAR FROM outer space BUT their tombs actually opened and they arose from their tombs in the cemeteries in Judaea just after Christ resurrected from the dead. Jesus also resurrected from his tomb.

    The Bible states this in Matthew 28:52-53. Now do you think the bodies that came out
    were somehow derived from the bodies that were placed in the tombs when they were buried?

    The saints in Matthew 28:52 did not come from outer space but resurrected from the cemeteries-grave yards in Jerusalem.

    Are we going to be joined suddenly by hundreds of millions from outer space?
    Those that die just a few days before the ACTUAL resurrection would most likely be resurrected in a body glorified from their non-decomposed bodies since their old bodies would not have decayed to dust. Again, I am looking at the resurrections in Matthew 28:52-53 SINCE THAT IS THE MAIN EXAMPLE OF RESURRECTION into glorified bodies that we can be taught from the scriptures.
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    Oh, I see what you are after.

    However, were those cases actually 'resurrections?'

    As I see the bible, it uses the word resurrection in reference to the beginning of eternaL life. The people you mention in Matthew 28 died again so I don't think these examples are the real deal.

    Justme
     
  15. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian

    They (those in Matthew 28:52-53) resurrected with Christ and reigned with Christ when Christ ascended to the throne after his resurrection. Their souls will not see the second death. Revelation 20:4. God's word cannot be challenged as not the real deal in New Testament.

    They ( Matthew 28:52-53) never fell for Satan even in those early 1st advent horrible times of threats of stonings etc. Satan was very desperate even conflicting with Christ Mark 1:13 and his time being short.

    As to what happened to their bodies as far as death again, God is not God of flesh for their souls (those in Matthew 28:52-53) never sleep anymore.
     
  16. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    Sorry here, I may have led readers astray, I said Matthew 28 and it should be chapter 27.

    You wrote:
    They (those in Matthew 28:52-53) resurrected with Christ and reigned with Christ when Christ ascended to the throne after his resurrection.

    There are those on the thrones prior to what is called the 'first' resurrection in chapter 20:4 and 6.

    I take it you are considering these who came to life at the crusifixion, Matthew 27:50-52, to be those in the first sentence of Rev 20:4. Could be, I don't recall anywhere that explains the first sentence of Rev 20:4. Are you considering the 1000 year reign begins soon after the ascentsion? 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.............

    You wrote:
    Their souls will not see the second death.

    Wouldn't the ones who do not have danger of the second death be a different group than the ones of the first sentence of verse 4? It looks to me that those who who have no danger of the second death are those that reign with Christ for 1000 years.

    There are other reasons I don't consider those in Matthew 27:50-52 to be resurrected. First, it doesn't fit the timeframe of an resurrection that I can think of. Daniel 12, Rev chapters 6,7, 20.

    As well,Paul reamed out Hymenaeas and Philetus for saying the resurrection had taken place.

    2 Tim 2
    17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

    I don't know when these men said this, but Paul seems to be talking to men of present times. Paul was only persecuting men of God at the time of the crusifixion and for some time after.

    Justme
     
  17. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    What they said was actually denying Christ's resurrection and denying Christ himself which is not what we are discussing.
    This is the explanation of what they were teaching, which was trying to go back to the Old Covenant.
    ----
    How did these two false prophets upset the faith of some? The reason
    why this premature announcement of these two heretics overthrew the faith of some was that it
    put a consummation of the spiritual kingdom while the earthly temple in Jerusalem still stood
    (Hebrews 9:8).

    The writer of Hebrew states the way into God's presence was "not open to man" as long as the
    earthly Temple was standing. In other words, Hymenaeus and Philetus were telling the Jewish
    brethren that the resurrection of the dead happened under the Old Covenant system and thus
    were trying to lead them from Christ back to Judaism which would be apostasy (1 John 2:19).

    We can see from the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus several things about the resurrection
    beliefs of the early Christians (2 Timothy 2:17-18). They must have believed that the
    resurrection would be spiritual in nature, and, therefore, not subject to confirmation by any
    physical evidence. If the early Christians had believed that the resurrection would involve the
    physical bodies coming out of the graves, as is taught today, Hymenaeus and Philetus could
    never have convinced anyone that the resurrection had already happened.

    They also must have believed that life on earth would go on with no material change after the
    resurrection. They didn't believe that they would be on a renovated planet earth as a
    consequence of the resurrection. Otherwise, the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus would
    have been impossible. No one would have paid any attention to them.

    The reason that their teaching that the resurrection has already happened was overthrowing the
    faith of some was that it postulated a consummation of the spiritual kingdom, while the earthly
    temple in Jerusalem still stood. This was a mixture of law and grace. This destroyed the faith of
    some by making the works of the law a part of the New Covenant.

    Paul called Gentile Christians who sought to keep the Law, foolish! He asked who bewitched
    them to turn from the truth of Christ crucified and their justification by faith. Paul puts grace in
    perspective when he writes, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes
    through the law, then Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21)."

    There is NO indication that Hymenaeus and Philetus were mistaken as to the NATURE of the
    resurrection. Their error was saying that the "DAY" had already come! The Jews in Paul's day
    claimed to be the ‘sons of God.' After all, they had been in business for 1500 years. They had
    the Law, the Priesthood, the system of sacrifices, their genealogies, and the Temple. The Jewish
    attitude seemed to say: "Of course we are the sons of God." Galatians 4:21-30

    While the Jews proudly proclaimed themselves to be the "sons of God," Jesus saith: "I am the
    way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6" Who was
    right? Hymenaeus and Philetus who were steeped in centuries of Jewish traditions, or this
    radical upstart, Jesus Christ? Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying that God had consummated
    his promise to Israel under the covenant of the law thus "tramping the blood of Christ and
    calling it a unholy thing."

    Hymenaeus and Philetus were telling the Jewish brethren that the resurrection of the dead
    already happened under the Old Covenant system trying to lead them from Christ back to
    Judaism. Paul, encourages them to hang in there and not return to the old system for in doing so
    there no longer remained a sacrifice for their sins.
     
  18. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Hi Justme

    You need to be very careful and look at the Revelation events and interpret them without assuming they are following each other consecutively.
    Secondly, it may be a mistake to construct timetables which may assume that certain Revelation events follow each other ie chapter 6 etc. Some do follow and some do not.

    First Rev 20:4 Those on the thrones with authority to judge
    This is not a vision of an event BEFORE THE 1000 years. No, whenever these thrones are mentioned, it depicts the time of judgement, for they are not just displayed for the sake of just displaying them.
    See Daniel 7:9 and Daniel 7:26. Thrones are seen and set up for action of judgement
    and those in Revelation 20:4 seem to be described by Christ himself in Matthew 19:28.

    Yes, Christ's reign of 1000 years (SYMBOLIC solar years) started after his ascension and Pentecost. I AM making the very important point which is supported by scripture that Christ's reign does not need to be seen on a mere Earthly throne. Christ reigns from Heaven and simply comes to judge and continue His reign till eternity.
    Earth is the footstool of God and God does not need humans to see Him to confirm that He is reigning. Matthew 28:18 Christ given all authority in Heaven and Earth.
    Who is King over all? Christ . Further confirmed in Mark 16:19 Christ sits on the throne .

    WHY WARS AND NO PEACE during the 1000 year reign. The disciples although given power over demons , curing sickness, healing etc were still starting the church and people have to be given free will for Christ does not force the Gospel on anyone.
    The verses of paradise and peace in Ezekiel and Isaiah describe peace in the eternal reign of Christ which takes place after judgement. This confuses some people who ask WHY IS THERE NO PEACE IF CHRIST is reigning. Of course humans under free will and under other religions would conflict with Christians and non Christians alike for Christ -Holy Spirit will not force humans to obey but will come into those who seek God.

    So back to those who resurrected with Christ, they are separate as you said, from those who sit on the thrones (the thrones is a pre judgement vision that is in the future and Christ describes those who will sit on the throne in Matthew 19:28.)
    Those who resurrected with Christ in the first advent will not see

    Wouldn't the ones who do not have danger of the second death be a different group than the ones of the first sentence of verse 4? It looks to me that those who who have no danger of the second death are those that reign with Christ for 1000 years.
    Yes, they are indeed separate from those who Christ told in Matthew 19:28 that they would sit on the 12 thrones to judge when judgement draws nigh.
    Those who reigned with Christ resurrected before the 12 disciples even started the Christian church. The disciples lived and spread the Gospel for a number of years after the resurrection of Christ.
     
  19. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    FROM YOUR POST:

    We can see from the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus several things about the resurrection
    beliefs of the early Christians (2 Timothy 2:17-18). They must have believed that the
    resurrection would be spiritual in nature, and, therefore, not subject to confirmation by any
    physical evidence. If the early Christians had believed that the resurrection would involve the
    physical bodies coming out of the graves, as is taught today, Hymenaeus and Philetus could
    never have convinced anyone that the resurrection had already happened.
    *******************

    I agree here 100%. Now using this it makes 2 Tim 2 make sense as written as I see it.

    I agree with you that the book of Revelation can not be considered to be in chronological order. However, we can put together order by certain phrases. Example: Rev 20
    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
    This is after the 1000 year reign is it not?

    I also agree that Christ IS reigning from a heavenly throne, but I am not sure that was fully in place at the ascension, because of the destruction of the enemies bit.

    Justme
     
  20. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian

    Hi Justme,

    The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years are ended, yes

    that is a latter resurrection that takes place after the 1000 years or as it ends.

    Why do you bring in enemies regarding Christ's ascension. He ascended to his throne a long time ago, whether enemies or not.

    FREE will is the key, humans under free will would sin, THAT DOES NOT make them''
    stronger than God?
    IS SATAN DEAD YET? No .. is Satan stronger than Christ , of course not.

    Another problem with the future.

    It is impossible for sin to persist when the wrath of God is poured out

    and Jesus returns HOWEVER, THE false teachers of the future 1000 years, cannot explain how on earth Satan could have followers gathering after him to

    conflict with Christ 1000 years later after using the beast in our tribulation.

    WHO could make the mistake that Jesus, RETURNED ON EARTH, would be a weak
    ineffective leader who could not stamp out SIN AS GOD-- thus allowing Satan to

    deceive people 1000 years later in the future to follow Satan into some conflict

    in REVELATION 20:7-11.

    that conflict IS THE SAME conflict of the Beast and false prophet, do not be deceived because Satan is mentioned as being thrown into the lake of fire WHERE THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ALREADY WERE.
    It does not mean the Beast and false prophet spent 1000 years in the lake of fire before Satan comes to join them there.

    1000 years does not separate the entry of the Beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and the entry of Satan into the lake of fire.
     
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