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The Messianic Seal

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Woodsy, Jul 10, 2003.

  1. Woodsy

    Woodsy Returned From Afar. Supporter

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    I have seen the Messianic Seal (menorah, fish, & star of David) all over the place while researching Messianic Judaism. I like the symbol, but have some questions.
    Does the seal really go back to the early Jewish followers of Yeshua HaMoschiach? It had been my understanding that Jews did not adopt the Star of David until relatively recently (the last few hundred years or so), mainly in order to distinguish synagogues from churches.
    Can anyone point me to some reliable archeological evidence?
    Toda raba!
     
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  2. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    Actually I just purchased the book written by the man who discovered it in Jerusalem. I first became aware of it last year at the conference and purchased a necklace. This year at the conference my husband got me the matching set of earrings for my birthday, but couldn't wait until this Saturday and gave them to me early. :hug:

    Anyway, a man in my congregation saw my necklace last year and told me about the book and then lent me his copy. This year I got my own but haven't had time just yet to re-read it. I did find something cool also at the Market at Messiah 2003, and that was a Mezuzah in the shape of the pottery urn that was one of the finds of the man that wrote the book. As I get some time I will share what's in there because if I recall correctly, the Israeli museum was well aware of the symbol but has "archived it" for later exhibit. ;)
     

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  3. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    This is a picture of the vial that is believed to have held annointing oil. It also is what my mezuzah looks like , with a flattened back of course to hang.It was found along with a stone block that has a depression in the center where the vial fitted perfectly. The symbol was also repeated on the block as well as the words

    xWr !mvb



    Which means For the "oil of the Spirit"

    Also another thing that I should mention as your post seems to focus on the Magen David, that the Messianic symbol is not seem as a Three in one symbol, but rather a two in one. The first the Mennorah, which represents the Spirit of the L-rd and points upwards toward heaven and the second the fish which represents those believers in Messiah, those that he called his disciples to become fishers of - men, and points down towards the earth where we are now.

    It is only when these two are combined do you see the third symbol, the magen David ( shield of David= also another title of the L-rd).

    It is in this unity that the symbolizm becomes clear. The star that is formed is what brings these two things together, Heaven ( G-d) and earth ( man) and that is in Yeshua and him alone. For he and he alone is the true and rightful heir to David's throne.

    And here is the urn and base
     

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  4. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    This is also another interpretation:

    "GRAFTED IN"

    Early Messianic Symbol -This sign has reportedly been discovered, in recent years, on pottery in The Jerusalem area, believed to date from the 2nd century a.d. some experts Have concluded that it was an identifying mark of the early Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus) that tied together, their traditions and their faith. Surely more Facts will come to Light as more archaeological evidence emerges.


    Some call this three-part design the "grafted-in" symbol as it beautifully illustrates the truth of Romans 11:17-18.

    The Menorah (Candelabra) at the top reminds us of god's torah and His fulfillment of the promises to Abraham in calling out the People of Israel.

    The Magen David (Star, or shield, of David) in the middle recalls the Nation of Israel And the establishment of the Davidic monarchy in the Land of Israel.

    The Fish at the bottom, long a symbol for Yeshua (from the Greek word for fish, ichthys, which Was used as an acronym for Jesus Christ, son of god, savior'), shows that the gentile has been grafted into the Jewish root through faith in Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel, The fulfiller of the torah and the rightful king in the line of David.

    Note that the symbol is one, completely fused together. With this fusion the "Grafted-In" symbol demonstrates that Jew and gentile are truly one in the messiah, reconciled through his atonement. In him the middle wall of partition has indeed been broken down. I hope that this symbol will inspire you as you meditate on the scriptures, which in turn will lead you to share these truths with others.
     

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  5. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    THE SEVEN BRANCHED MENORAH
    [​IMG][​IMG]he Menorah that was the centerpiece of the Tabernacle in the wilderness and of the first and second Temples in Jerusalem had seven branches. This is not to be confused with the nine branch Menorah used to celebrate Chanuka.

    Specifications and instructions for the making of the Temple Menorah are recorded in Exodus 25:31-40. The golden candlestick had seven bowls on the end of the branches containing pure oil for the light. Twenty-two almond blossoms decorated the whole piece which was hammered out of one talent of pure gold equivalent to 34 Kg. or 75 pounds!

    The Menorah was the only light that lit up the Tabernacle as there were no windows. The seven lamps filled with oil are a witness to perfect light.

    This fullness of light is described in the prophecy concerning the Messiah of Israel in Isaiah 11:2: "And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord."

    That last brings to mind a Marc Chopinsky Song recorded byPaul Wilbur:

    "He shall reign over all the earth."

    "There shall come forth a rod out of Jesse
    and a branch shall grow from his roots
    the spirit of God shall rest upon him
    the spirit of wisdom and truth"

    And He shall reign over all the earth :clap: Sing with me
    He shall reign over all the earth,
    He shall reign over all the earth,
    He shall reign over all the earth.

    I especially like this last verse:

    He shall gather the outcasts of Israel
    the dispersed from Judah from all the Earth..........
    He shall stand as an ensign for His people
    and His resting place will be GLORIOUS!!!! And....

    Sing with me :clap:
    And He shall reign over all the earth :clap:
    He shall reign over all the earth,
    He shall reign over all the earth,
    He shall reign over all the earth.

    AMEN! Come Yeshua Come!!!!!!



     
  6. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    Since the artifact I was talking about ( and posted the picture of above ) that contained the symbol but on the oil vial I thought I would share this also:


    ANOINTING OIL
    [​IMG][​IMG]o anoint means to pour oil or ointment onto a person or object in a ritualistic fashion. the Hebrew word for anoint first appears in Genesis 31:13, where it refers to Jacob pouring oil on the stone in Bethel (Genesis 28:18-19).

    When anointing Israel's first King, the Prophet-Judge Samuel (1 Samuel 9:25) took Saul aside for instruction, then "took a vial of oil and poured it on his head, and kissed him and said Has not the Lord appointed you to be prince over His people Israel?'" (1 Samuel 10:1}.

    For anointing the Tabernacle and it's priests, a special oil was compounded and used for that sacred purpose. Oil is symbolic of healing. When the Good Samaritan helped the man who had been mugged by robbers of the road from Jerusalem to Jericho, he poured oil and wine on his wounds. In the New Testament, anointing of the sick accompanied by prayer for healing by local church elders is recommended when requested by a sick person (James 5: 14-15).

    Anointing with oil was also part of the apostles’ healing ministry (Mark 6:12-13). The word for "anoint" is MASEIAH, and the Messiah is therefore "The Anointed One”. Oil is therefore associated with God's gift and God’s outpouring of the Spirit.

    I have also done a little study on the bridesmaids and made an association with this oil. I will share it a little later as I have to get busy preparing for Shabbat.

    Shalom!
     
  7. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    [​IMG]
    FOUND: The First Century baptismal grotto of James and the Apostles on Mount Zion, Jerusalem. James, the brother of Jesus, was the leader of the first Nazarene (Messianic) church located in the Upper Room on Mount Zion.
    Our story begins in 1963, when a small ceremonial silver lamina (a thin plate) was found in the Judean Desert near Jerusalem, dating back to the first century. A Catholic priest and archeologist named Emanuel Testa deciphered the Aramaic text of this artifact, the first line of which reads: "For the Oil of the Spirit." Testa was amazed to find that the text was nearly identical to James 5: 14-16. This tiny lamina (3"x1") is a sort of pass card or certificate of belief in Jesus, used in early Jewish-Christian baptism to confirm the forgiveness of sins and "right of passage" into the Kingdom of Heaven. This text from the Book of James clearly indicates that the earliest Jewish Christians anointed believers with oil. What has not been clearly understood until now is how this anointing was connected with baptism and the entry into the faith. This is no longer a mystery.
    In 1990, Ludwig Schneider, editor in chief of the magazine Israel Update, struck up a friendship with an old Greek Orthodox monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem. On one occasion, the monk showed Schneider a cache of artifacts that he had secretly excavated on Mount Zion before the Six Day War in 1967. Schneider was taken aback. Many of these pottery shards, oil lamps and stone pieces were engraved with an unknown symbol, This symbol consisted of a menorah on top, a Star of David in the center and a fish at the bottom. Schneider was immediately convinced that this must have been a symbol of the first Jewish-Christian church (assembly).
    The monk then led Schneider to a cavity in the rock adjacent to the Tomb of David and the Upper Room on Mount Zion, and told him that this is where he found the artifacts. Today, the cave is dark and musty and sealed off with iron bars. As legend has it, some great secrets are hidden there. Some say according to the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is a cache of Second Temple treasures. The most popular legend is the deep within this cave lies the long lost Ark of the Covenant.
    As it turns out, this is the sacred baptismal grotto of the first Nazarene (Messianic) church, and the treasure hidden there was the First and Second Century artifacts (about 60 in all) found by the monk. Among these artifacts is a brick-shaped piece of local marble inscribed with the Messianic Seal and the words in ancient Aramaic: "For the Oil of the Spirit." This seems to have been the base for a vial of anointing oil. A small pottery flask with a Messianic Seal found nearby supports this theory.
    In the author's opinion, this piece of marble came into use in the earliest Nazarene times at this baptismal site, below the church in the Upper Room established by James the Just and the Apostles. This was, of course, a perfect place for the church, because the Upper Room is where the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples at Pentecost. The church was located in the heart of the Essene (a strict, contemplative Jewish sect) Quarter, and was probably a Qumran-like Essene community. According to the Book of Acts, there was strict discipline and a hierarchy. It stands to reason that this group would have immediately established Nazarene ritual, including a ceremonial healing and baptismal center where conversions were sealed by immersion in water and anointing with oil. Judging from the inscription "For the Oil of the Spirit," the anointing was symbolic of baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Book of Acts records 3,000 conversions here on the day of Pentecost alone.
    The author believes that James and the Apostles administered the "Oil of the Spirit" from this very stone base. That would make this piece, if the author's suspicions are correct, the earliest known Christian artifact. The author believes that the previously discovered lamina with the same inscription was also used by this congregation.
    But ten years after its discovery, this historic, amazing find remains a well kept secret. Ludwig Schneider approached the Israel Museum with these artifacts, and was promised they would be put on display. But it never happened. It seems the Israeli authorities do not want the mystery of the Messianic Seal to come to light.
    By Reuven E. Schmalz


    This is a small portion of what I have in my book.lt also contains some good Messianic History, I will share this in another post.
     
  8. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    Hmm, wondering why there is no interest? This is a super find, especially for Messianic believers! :scratch:
     
  9. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    That really is a super post!
     
  10. Woodsy

    Woodsy Returned From Afar. Supporter

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    I'd like to see any accounts of the discovery of the "Messainic Seal" in an archaeology text or journal or reputable newspaper.
    So far I've only seen articles from people sympathetic to the cause of Messianic Judaism.
    I like the seal, but I am not convinced of its antiquity.
    I'm still curious as to how the people who claim to have discovered the "Messianic Seal" would be allowed to copyright it! :confused:
     
  11. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Tribe,

    I have had similar thoughts as you.

    Not to mention the origins of the fish symbol were of deity pieces (sp?)


    I too have met a lack of archaelogical foundation regarding this symbol.

    hmmmm....
    -Yafet.
     
  12. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    Here's an Appendix from the Book on the seal that I have.

    While we were writing this book, we were understandably motivated to get as much authentication as possible regarding the artifacts. To this end, we had an ongoing discussion with Ludwig Schneider ( the man whom the Orthodox Monk gave the 8 pieces of pottery with the symbol on it) that ultimately produced the certificate of authenticity included herein,. However, we have continued to seek more validation, even after the first edition was released in July 1999.

    Concurrent with our press conference at the Christian Booksellers Convention in Orlando Florida in July, where we formally introduced the book, Reuven, who remained in Israel, shared the Seal as it appears on the eight artifacts held by Ludwig Schneider with six Israeli scholars, all connected with archeology and/or history facilities of leading Israeli Universities, representing a very credible cross section of individuals who are by experience and position the best available in Israel to assess the artifacts authenticity.

    Without exception, all agreed that all of the eight artifacts are ancient. Following their "first look" the majority of these scholars expressed their belief that a further formal study would likely date these artifacts to the time of the Nazarenes. One scholar suggested they might possibly be dated to just before the Nazarene period (as early as 200 BCE), another, to a period just following this ( to as late as possibly the 5th century CE) . There is both "good news" and "bad news": all of these individuals are doctoral level scholars. All have a firm standing as contemporary archeologists/historians and all privately held that the artifacts are, as we believe, genuine antiquities. The "Bad news" is that, in keeping with standard academic/professional practice, none of these six scholars were then or would now be willing to formalize their opinions in writing. This is a serious business for them, and their initial opinions were based on private "off the record" reviews. All agreed that to offer a formal opinion for public consumption, would require a much longer study, along with the assignment of appropriate responsibility/credit for their work. Such a study would carry with it professional standing and reputation and understandably it could not be casually offered.

    Because of the great importance we and many others ascribe to the Seal and its meaning, Barry Rubin, Director of the Lederer Foundation and others have suggested that we undertake an independent archeological examination of the artifacts in order to put to rest any lingering doubt whatsoever regarding their authenticity.

    As this second printing is being prepared, we have begun to organize such an independent archeological study. Our focus is to arrange for this effort to be conducted by the Department of Archeology of some leading American university that already has been active in Christian oriented archeological projects in Israel. For example, several such universities were involved in the continuing dig at Bethsaida.

    We will certainly include the outcome of any such future study in the printing immediately following its availability.

    Dec 15, 1999


    PS on the artifacts that show the whole symbol you can see that the "eye" of the fish is actually an ancient "tav". some believe this to be the "sign" that the L-rd marked Cain with for protection.

    See my picture below.
     

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  13. Woodsy

    Woodsy Returned From Afar. Supporter

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    One book written by those with a financial interest in the symbol's authenticity does not convince me.

    That said, I can like the symbol, and maybe even buy it, without believing in its antiquity.

    It's a nice design, and I'd like a symbol that represents Jewish Believers.
     
  14. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    I don't know why MJ'ism has a fascination to come up with a symbol that represents MJ'ism. To me it seems more of a seperatist thing than anything else. What's wrong with the menorah, or Mogan David already established in traditional Jewish cirlces?
     
  15. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

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    Simchat, let me ask you, if you didn't know anything about this, and being Jewish would recognize the Menorah and the Magen David, if you saw this, would you inquire about the meaning of it?
     
  16. ShirChadash

    ShirChadash A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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    bebumpity bump bump :pink:
     
  17. Sephania

    Sephania Well-Known Member

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    simchat, I saw you mention pisces both in this thread and another one on this similar subject, does that mean that you believe pisces is a pagan symbol because it is used in astrology? Pisces is the latin name for all fish or fishes. It is also the name of a constellation of a big fish and a littler fish. HaShem made the heavens and all the stars, he formed these constellations, so could you explain your problem with this?

    Interesting http://www.biblicalresearchinstitute.com/lectures/lec10.htm
     
  18. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

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    But the ancient taw had the shape of a simple cross. All sorts of shapes are called crosses but when we have a nice simple shape that anyone can identify as a cross it is called an ancient "tav". Too funny!!!
     
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