The Mechanics of Salvation

[scottSTANLEY]

When I speak of the mechanics of salvation I am simply trying to lay out the process one goes through in grasping eternal life. Eternal life is defined in John 17:3

(Joh 17:3)　And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I could write volumes concerning all the concepts that come out of this statement, but I want to key on salvation and how knowing God pertains to it.

As I have stated in other posts, God is love (1 John 4:8, 16) and love is defined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. Just keying on :5 we learn love (God) does not make a record of sin. God has never made a record of anyone's sin and the cross bears this out. The men crucifying Christ were all forgiven in the very midst of the crime. Not one repented, prayed the prayer, or even believed, yet they were all forgiven (Luke 23:24). In other words, God did not make a record of their sin, but instead forgave them.

The record of sin is made by us. We keep a record (in the mind) of all we have done to others, creating guilt and shame, and we record what others have done to us, creating anger, resentment, and bitterness. If we retain the wounds given us by others, their sin becomes our sin because we refuse to let it go (John 20:22-23). To come into the presence of God, in this state of mind, would mean certain death. Not that He would kill you. He wouldn't need to, we would simply die (Job 31:23).

Salvation is a love relationship between you and God. Receiving his forgiveness then being able to forgive yourself and others. This is how sin is lifted up, from the individual. This is what is meant by working out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12-13) for it is God working in you.

2 Co 5:10　For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This day is coming for everyone. If sin has been lifted up from us we will have confidence before Him and not be ashamed. Again, life eternal is to know God. To know God is to know He is love and that He has always forgiven me, just as He demonstrated at Calvary.

 

[David Kent]

• John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
• 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
• 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
• 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
• 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God showed his love to us by sending His Son to live and die to save those who believe in him. But those who don't believe are condemned.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

• John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
• 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
• 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
• 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
• 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God showed his love to us by sending His Son to live and die to save those who believe in him. But those who don't believe are condemned.

They are condemned of themselves, not God. Remember, love does not keep a record of sin, and God so loved the world. His love for the world was before the cross. At the cross He did not even condemn those who killed His Son. Condemnation comes from self.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

• John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
• 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
• 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
• 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
• 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God showed his love to us by sending His Son to live and die to save those who believe in him. But those who don't believe are condemned.

They are condemned of themselves, not God. Remember, love does not keep a record of sin, and God so loved the world. His love for the world was before the cross. At the cross He did not even condemn those who killed His Son. Condemnation comes from self.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

• John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
• 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
• 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
• 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
• 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
• 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

God showed his love to us by sending His Son to live and die to save those who believe in him. But those who don't believe are condemned.

They are condemned of themselves, not God. Remember, love does not keep a record of sin, and God so loved the world. His love for the world was before the cross. At the cross He did not even condemn those who killed His Son. Condemnation comes from self.

 

[Sarah G]

What does it mean to be condemned of ourselves? I am not really understanding. I think that in the way David Kent is saying it means to be condemned to hell or eternal death (eternal separation from God?)

But those who don't believe are condemned.

so what would it entail to be condemned of ourselves? What would be the situation then regarding physical death and afterlife?

 

[scottSTANLEY]

One day when I was speeding down the highway I came over a hill and found the state police clocking speeders. I was driving over the speed limit and knew in my heart I was guilty. For the next several seconds I watched my rear view mirror closely watching to see if his car would pull onto the highway coming after me. The fear that gripped my soul as I watched that mirror was such a terrible feeling. I know this is shallow but I hope you consider this with me. Imagine coming into the presence of God, carrying sin, and not knowing He is love. Thinking He needed a human sacrifice (the cross) in order to forgive me. There is no way a person would survive that. I think my heart would stop from fear. You see, we have condemned ourselves because of sin, not knowing that God understands our darkness.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not (or don't understand God's love) might see; and that they which see (or think they see) might be made blind.


Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?


Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind (or realized you didn't know God), ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth (in your own mind).

Rom 8:1

1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (The Spirit being how God understands)

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

God does not demand a human sacrifice.

Here's how it was explained before Augustine, in the 300's.

On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Chapter 1 Creation and the Fall
Chapter 2 The Divine Dilemma and its Solution in the Incarnation
Chapter 3 The Divine Dilemma and its Solution in the Incarnation — continued

Later on, "western ideas" were added in by Augustine (400ad), Anselm (1000ad), and Jonathan Edwards (1700ad) that bring about the idea that God the Father demanded something.

To me, if Christ is the creator of Adam in Genesis as the Eastern Orthodox Churches teach. Then God the Father is not the person of the Godhead that would have been offended by the fall.

Christ God created us... and Christ God recreated us.

God is not angry with us, God is on our side.

That's that way Orthodox Christianity teaches the subject.

Forgive me...

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Thank you so much for responding. I will definitely check out the links above.
Now that we have connected again, could you please explain why Christ needed to die?
I suppose I could just say what it is I am seeing at Calvary. In Christ's death we see we were already forgiven. Christ's death is an expression of the love of the Father, forgiving those who crucified His son without any of them repenting. The Son of God gave His life a sacrifice that God's love could be experienced by all. At the cross we see the spirit of the Father is not what we believed it to be. He has never condemned anyone, but has always been forgiving.
According to Romans 8:9-11 there is a big difference between the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son. Possessing the spirit of the Father will bring one to the fullness as seen in Ephesians chapter three thru four. It is the fullness of knowing God's love that we seek. It is also the fullness that the book of Revelation is revealing. All end time prophecy is based on this truth, including the man of sin. Isaish 59:20-21 is what Paul is explaining in Romans 11:25-30. When the Gentiles comes to the fullness they will be sent to the Jew as promised by God. How we see the Cross is no small thing.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Now that we have connected again, could you please explain why Christ needed to die?

Exactly what these three chapters deal with...

Forgive me...

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Exactly what these three chapters deal with...

Forgive me...

I can only access chapter 1. The other two won't open.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I can only access chapter 1. The other two won't open.

Okay... just go 'next' from chapter 1... top (or bottom) right.

Hope I fixed the links.

Forgive me...

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Exactly what these three chapters deal with...

Forgive me...

Thanks. They are working now.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

This is a lot to read and I have to admit I have not finished it all, but so far I do not hear truth in it. One statement made, "He fulfilled in death all that was required", got my attention. What was required and who required it?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Did you notice the lack of an angry Father?

If I took chemo for cancer, is it because someone "required" it?

Think of these things being necessary for healing. Think in terms of illness to be cured instead of punishments to be required.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

"Necessary things" does not equal required "punishments".

Notice also that Christ did not curse Adam for his transgression but cursed the ground for his sake. Any punishments were averted. God chose to deal with us as ill, to be healed. And he was just the person to do it.

Genesis 3:17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

bump

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Did you notice the lack of an angry Father?

If I took chemo for cancer, is it because someone "required" it?

Think of these things being necessary for healing. Think in terms of illness to be cured instead of punishments to be required.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

"Necessary things" does not equal required "punishments".

Notice also that Christ did not curse Adam for his transgression but cursed the ground for his sake. Any punishments were averted. God chose to deal with us as ill, to be healed. And he was just the person to do it.

Genesis 3:17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Forgive me...

That seems strange that you would say you say Adam was not cursed, the soul that sins shall surely die, and Adam was specially told not to eat of the tree of life, and because of the transgression the sin nature passed on to all, thus Adam also got a new nature. All have sinned is inclusive meaning all isn't it?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That seems strange that you would say you say Adam was not cursed, the soul that sins shall surely die, and Adam was specially told not to eat of the tree of life, and because of the transgression the sin nature passed on to all, thus Adam also got a new nature. All have sinned is inclusive meaning all isn't it?

Transgression is correct, and death is the result of that transgression.

If I tell you that you're going to fall down if you drink too much, am I cursing you or just giving you the facts of the matter?

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Forgive me...

 

[David Kent]

• 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

• 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

[David Kent]

That seems strange that you would say you say Adam was not cursed, the soul that sins shall surely die, and Adam was specially told not to eat of the tree of life, and because of the transgression the sin nature passed on to all, thus Adam also got a new nature. All have sinned is inclusive meaning all isn't it?

Exactly.
All the earth was cursed because of Adam's sin, but which will last until the Lord returns

• Revelation 22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: