The meaning of "originalism"

NotreDame

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How do you "easily correct" the murder of three children shot numerous times from many different directions, spending their last hours kidnapped by a dangerous and violent parent? How do you easily correct the impact on a woman whose whole life was shattered in that moment--after having begged and pleaded the police force to do their job!

What happens if that "easily corrected" law goes back to a bunch of Republican legislators who would rather see women and children tortured than add a "regulation" to the city government?

Well, researching further, I found justice was meted out in 2011--and the United States lost. But I found no information on whether Colorado moved to protect future children from being murdered.


'Home Truth' shows a mother's fight for justice after her husband killed their 3 daughters

How sad that the poison of "originalism" has been made palatable through Fox News and Koch Brothers propaganda. It emphasizes how badly we need change.

A decision you have poorly and inaccurately characterized cannot logically be an indictment of originalism.

Which by the way original meaning had very little if anything to do the decision. Rather, this cases was decided, inter alia, with a plain text reading of the statute in context.

You cannot logically use this decision, which isn’t based upon original meaning, to cast aspersions upon originalism.
 
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NotreDame

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One of the problems with originalism is that it assumes that all the originators were unanimous and precise in their use of the semantics, which is rarely if ever the case. Semantics can be a troublesome thing.

That is your pleasant fiction of originalism. It’s cool though, since originalism doesn’t “assumes that all the originators were unanimous and precise in their use of the semantics.” Such unanimity has not been a tenet of originalism.
 
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NotreDame

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Text doesn't have an absolute meaning.

Oh no? Really?

Cannot speed over 55. No absolute meaning?

“He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years...” No absolute meaning?

“neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years..” No absolute meaning?

No alcohol sales to any person under 21 years of age. No absolute meaning?

All cats are mammals. All mammals are warm blooded. Therefore, all cats are warm blooded. No absolute meaning? Really?

To be sure, sometimes ambiguity does exist in a text, but you went right off a cliff with no parachute by claiming there is no absolute meaning in a text.
 
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zippy2006

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I think @Fantine really, really, really needs to listen to minutes 15-20 of this video. It would not only help her stop mischaracterizing Amy Barrett, but would also help her understand what the role of a judge actually is.
 
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NotreDame

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The word "shall" appears 306 times in the U.S. Constitution (google and highlight it to see where all the "shalls" appear.)

According to "originalists," that means almost every clause in the Constitution is "optional" begining with things like Congress, the House and Senate, are "optional."

Like here:
Article III


Section 1


The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

All "optional" according to originalists...

The real truth is that Justice Scalia hoodwinked a bunch of justices into saying the "shall" was optional in terms of police turning their backs while three innocent children were kidnapped and murdered, spending their last hours in terror before being shot multiple times from different angles because he and his Federalist Society colleagues just hate those pesky government regulations. Why should the police have to do their job? Just another pesky government regulation.

:doh:

The 14th Amendment DPC was the relevant Constitutional clause at issue in the decision. The issue wasn’t what the word “shall” meant elsewhere in the Constitution. The language of the order and borrowed language from a state statue pertaining to the duties of peace officers in relation to violation of a restraining order.
 
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NotreDame

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If she wasn't a "conservative activist judge" the Federalist Society would not have placed her at the top of their list. If she wasn't a "conservative activist judge" she wouldn't have made the rulings she did in her short tenure as a district court judge.

The word "activist" (since you prioritize semantics before morality) does not always refer to someone who is building up. Activists can also break down. Activists can dismantle programs that have made our country prosperous and had a positive effect on Americans' quality of life. Activists can be destructive.

In attacking a domestic violence law by declaring police response "optional," destructive activists like Scalia were "remotely cooperating with evil" (a Catholic term pro-lifers often use to condemn Catholics who vote Democratic). He was remotely cooperating with evil by removing protections for women and children from domestic violence.

And you thought he was moral!

May want to re-examine your ideology if you have to resort to such bigotry about people.
 
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Fantine

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I know we can agree on one thing, Notre Dame-- the absolute legality of a Democratic Administration and Congress to expand the courts.
Fortunately, there are several plans to insure that they will can be balanced for many years to come, and I am sure that by June of next year the public will not only be supportive but actually begging for a solution.
Autocrats and oligarchs can always be counted on to overplay their hands and lose public support.
Will.healthcare be the tipping point? Or civil rights? Or continuing to protect Trump as he fights off NY criminal charges? Voting rights? Voter suppression?
I have seen a proposal that de-politicizing the court would require 27 justices. Why 27? Because the death or retirement of one would have minimal impact. Congress might actually look for fair minded justices instead of Manchurian Candidates (as one publication called Barrett.)
 
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NotreDame

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I know we can agree on one thing, Notre Dame-- the absolute legality of a Democratic Administration and Congress to expand the courts.
Fortunately, there are several plans to insure that they will can be balanced for many years to come, and I am sure that by June of next year the public will not only be supportive but actually begging for a solution.
Autocrats and oligarchs can always be counted on to overplay their hands and lose public support.
Will.healthcare be the tipping point? Or civil rights? Or continuing to protect Trump as he fights off NY criminal charges? Voting rights? Voter suppression?
I have seen a proposal that de-politicizing the court would require 27 justices. Why 27? Because the death or retirement of one would have minimal impact. Congress might actually look for fair minded justices instead of Manchurian Candidates (as one publication called Barrett.)

You think a Democratic Congress expanding the seats to 27, which polling suggests Americans oppose any expansion, approximately 68% opposed),for the purpose of neutralizing a perceived conservative advantage on the Court, is “depoliticizing”? That is a very act of politicizing.

And you think it impressive a publication can resort to the ad hominem of Manchurian Candidate to describe the nominee Barrett?
 
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Yttrium

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Cannot speed over 55. No absolute meaning?

That's a phrase, not a word.

But sure, let's look at it. You're making a lot of assumptions that the other person knows exactly what you mean. When you say "cannot", do you mean that I physically can't do it? Or that I'll be punished if I do? Or that speeding over 55 is meaningless? What do you mean by "speed"? Is it simply traveling faster than 55? Is it traveling faster than is safe for the conditions, so traveling at 60 on a road built for 80 is okay? What do you even mean by 55? Miles per hour? Kilometers per hour? Meters per second? When you say "over" 55, do you mean exactly 55.0, or is 55.8 okay? Maybe round down? Is 55.3 okay?

I could go on. You see, this is why I hate semantics debates.
 
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Fantine

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You think a Democratic Congress expanding the seats to 27, which polling suggests Americans oppose any expansion, approximately 68% opposed),for the purpose of neutralizing a perceived conservative advantage on the Court, is “depoliticizing”? That is a very act of politicizing.

And you think it impressive a publication can resort to the ad hominem of Manchurian Candidate to describe the nominee Barrett?

Various plans have been proposed to balance the Courts. Balancing the Courts is a very different concept from attempting a hostile takeover of the Courts in order to legislate from the bench (which is what has happened over the past five years.) One plan, for instance, suggests 5 Democratic appointees, 5 Republican appointees, and 5 recommended for nomination by the other ten. If this were to occur next year, of course, since the Court has already been unbalanced, Democrats would have to appoint three nominees (6-6) and those twelve could recommend the other three. The 5-5-5 ratio could be applied in the future.

A massive education plan, perhaps annotating all the decisions over the past twenty years that have harmed the common good--Citizens United, gutting the Voting Rights Act, gutting the Affordable Care Act (and perhaps worse...)--should be undertaken first.

The new Court will help educate the public by running amuck on citizens' rights...

As the courts become more conservative, not due to the public will but due to a forty year Federalist Society takeover plan, our country's demographics are becoming more progressive every day. Truthfully, acting to balance the Courts will avert a wholesale revolution by the public. Every year's delay will result in more and more anger and possibly even violence. Like most progressives, I deplore violence, but you don't have to be a soothsayer to see that a massive confrontation is a huge possibility.

The "Manchurian Candidate" reference has to be seen in context. The biographical sketch showed how Ms. Barrett was carefully groomed for her current position from her first day in law school, and how her family history made her an ideal choice for the Federalist Society takeover.

I understand that wild accusations will counter a sensible plan to balance the courts, but I really don't see how our country has any other choice. It is sad that Republican treachery over the past five years has created the necessity for a drastic solution.
 
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zippy2006

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Various plans have been proposed to balance the Courts. Balancing the Courts is a very different concept from attempting a hostile takeover of the Courts in order to legislate from the bench (which is what has happened over the past five years.) One plan, for instance, suggests 5 Democratic appointees, 5 Republican appointees, and 5 recommended for nomination by the other ten. If this were to occur next year, of course, since the Court has already been unbalanced, Democrats would have to appoint three nominees (6-6) and those twelve could recommend the other three. The 5-5-5 ratio could be applied in the future.

A massive education plan, perhaps annotating all the decisions over the past twenty years that have harmed the common good--Citizens United, gutting the Voting Rights Act, gutting the Affordable Care Act (and perhaps worse...)--should be undertaken first.

The new Court will help educate the public by running amuck on citizens' rights...

As the courts become more conservative, not due to the public will but due to a forty year Federalist Society takeover plan, our country's demographics are becoming more progressive every day. Truthfully, acting to balance the Courts will avert a wholesale revolution by the public. Every year's delay will result in more and more anger and possibly even violence. Like most progressives, I deplore violence, but you don't have to be a soothsayer to see that a massive confrontation is a huge possibility.

The "Manchurian Candidate" reference has to be seen in context. The biographical sketch showed how Ms. Barrett was carefully groomed for her current position from her first day in law school, and how her family history made her an ideal choice for the Federalist Society takeover.

I understand that wild accusations will counter a sensible plan to balance the courts, but I really don't see how our country has any other choice. It is sad that Republican treachery over the past five years has created the necessity for a drastic solution.

You're literally an autocrat parading as a democrat. It's beyond anything I've witnessed before.
 
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Fantine

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You have been conditioned to believe the way you do.
Those who have been plottting the court takeover for 40 years want to seize power by any means, as was evidenced by McConnell's treachery.
Exactly what is wrong with seeking "balance?"
Those who seek absolute power--the Federalists--are the villains in this scenario.
 
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zippy2006

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You have been conditioned to believe the way you do.
Those who have been plottting the court takeover for 40 years want to seize power by any means, as was evidenced by McConnell's treachery.
Exactly what is wrong with seeking "balance?"
Those who seek absolute power--the Federalists--are the villains in this scenario.

You're proposing court packing and you're giving lectures on "seizure of power"? I'd sooner listen to a lecture on loving kindness from Emperor Palpatine.
 
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NotreDame

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That's a phrase, not a word.

When you say "cannot", do you mean that I physically can't do it? Or that I'll be punished if I do? Or that speeding over 55 is meaningless? What do you mean by "speed"? Is it simply traveling faster than 55? Is it traveling faster than is safe for the conditions, so traveling at 60 on a road built for 80 is okay? What do you even mean by 55? Miles per hour? Kilometers per hour? Meters per second? When you say "over" 55, do you mean exactly 55.0, or is 55.8 okay? Maybe round down? Is 55.3 okay?

I could go on. You see, this is why I hate semantics debate.

That's a phrase, not a word.

I remind you, the issue is whether text cannot have an absolute meaning. Text is broader in meaning than a word.

I could go on. You see, this is why I hate semantics debate

No, I do not “see” your point at all. You have not shown text cannot have an absolute meaning.

For instance, the questions you ask do not establish the text lacks an absolute meaning. Some of the questions you ask support an absolute meaning by the notion of exclusion. For instance:

“Is it traveling faster than is safe for the conditions, so traveling at 60 on a road built for 80 is okay? Or that I'll be punished if I do? Or that speeding over 55 is meaningless?“ The text’s meaning doesn’t care. It is an all encompassing. It doesn’t matter what activity, there’s a limit to its speed, 55. It doesn’t matter what “speed” means, whatever it’s meaning it is limited to 55. And whatever 55 is in reference to, it is fixed at 55. That’s absolute meaning.

Now, as you noticed, the phrase is ambiguous. Intentionally. Why? Because ambiguity and absolute meaning are not mutually exclusive. What we know to be absolute about the text is that whatever is under discussion, 55 is a limit in some measurement.

A comparable legal example is the due process clause of the 5th Amendment. “No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”

To be sure, there’s ambiguity. What is a person? What process is due? What is property? Liberty? Life? Yet, despite the ambiguity, there is an absolute meaning, which is whatever person means, not a single one can have taken away whatever liberty, life, or property means, unless by whatever meaning of “due process.” And the text, word usage and placement, tells us what due process cannot mean, it cannot mean life, liberty, or property cannot be taken away.

As I said before, text can be ambiguous, but to say text has “no” absolute meaning was to jump off a cliff with no parachute.

You're making a lot of assumptions that the other person knows exactly what you mean

No, no, no, no. That’s translation. If a Martian spoke a different dialect, then the goal is to communicate that text in their language.

But when it comes to words, which are the necessary building blocks of any language, they have a limited range of meaning. Sometimes the words, word choice, by context, usage, word placement, do convey an absolute meaning. This is true of the English language. My examples, including the due process example, convey this point. As do my other examples in my prior post.


That’s what’s useful about my syllogism in my prior post. It has an absolute meaning.

All cats are mammals. All mammals are warm blooded. Therefore, all cats are warm blooded.

I borrowed this validity example because it is useful. In philosophy the meaning of the words do not affect whether the argument is valid. Whatever its terms mean, all cats are warm blooded is true if the premises are true. It is a valid argument.

Borrowing from that idea, the conclusion, text, statement, has an absolute meaning, that says whatever a cat means, whatever warm blooded means, all of them (cats) are warm blooded (whatever warm blooded means).
 
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AvilaSurfer

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Democrats propose "balance" to create a disastrous "imbalance" created by McConnell's holding 113 nominations hostage in an unprecedented act of hyperpartisanship.
I’m so glad you decided to use “” around the word “balance.” There is no balance in democrat plans. None.
 
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Fantine

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The earth cannot afford a bunch of corporate shill justices groomed by big business interests to turn America into an oligarchy.
Two words. Climate change. We are responsible to future generations. We are responsible to.the entire world to do.our part.
Sorry. People of conscience can't allow democracy to.be hijacked...and you are outnumbered. Only voter suppression and gerrymandering will give you wins in the future--and we don't need judicial.accomplices.
 
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zippy2006

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I’m so glad you decided to use “” around the word “balance.” There is no balance in democrat plans. None.

They will pack the Court with justices who will "interpret" the law in order to achieve "balance" and create a world of "compassion," a utopia for the "persons" they will "serve."

Newspeak.
 
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