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THE MEANING OF 1 Tim 1:4 .

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Dan Perez, Dec 6, 2021.

  1. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    Meaning of 1 Tim 1:4 .

    I believe that 1 Tim 1:4 is the answer of those that say Dispensationalism emerged by Darby .

    #1 It begins with the Greek word NEITHER/MEDE and means NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, NOT .do not not , give !!

    #2 GIVE HEED / PROSECHO , is in the Greek Present Tense , Active Voice and is an Infinitive .

    #3 TO FABLES / MYTHOS is in Dative Case which the case of personal interest .

    #4 and ENDLESS / APERATOS also in the Dative Case .

    #5 GEALOGIES / GENEALOGIA also in the Dative Case .

    #6 WHICH /HOSTIS an Relative Pronoun is which describes , that , which , what , or whom .
    #7 MINISTER / PARECHO is in the Greek Present , which is talking about ministers of Paul's time .

    #8 Which minster QUESTIONS / ZETESIS in the Accusative case , which is a case of limitations .

    #9 GODLY / THEOS is in the GENITIVE case of Possession .

    #10 And the next word is DISPENSATION / OIKONOMIA and is in the Accusative case and if you want to be godly you have to know the MYSTERY as written in Col 1:25 and 26 to be in the FAITH .

    This means that Greek word EDIFYING i NOT in the Greek text as the correct word is DISPENSATION / OIKONOMIA , and to be in the Faith all believers have to know and preach and know the word DISPENATIONLY .

    dan p

    #9
     
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  2. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    In my preferred translation, the NET v2.1, 1 Timothy 1:3 and the first part of v 4 are one sentence: "As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to spread false teachings, nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan that operates by faith."

    The meaning seems clear enough. People were involved in extraneous and/or erroneous issues: false teachings, myths and interminable genealogies, instead of God's plan of redemption.

    Aside from the fact that your last paragraph is confusing, what are your translator credentials?
     
  3. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And not a scholar , BUT anyone can use BLUELETTER BIBLE or BIBLE HUB or read an HEBREW , GREEK , and ENGLISH INTERLINER bible and check there texts .

    Did you check what cases I used or the text ?

    dan p
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Actually, "dispensation" means "stewardship," an administration of God, a management of affairs, the administration of property of others, as in responsibility entrusted to Paul of preaching the gospel; i.e., "stewardship (oikonomia) of the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:17).

    It does not mean a period or epoch, as in "Dispensationalism," which cannot be traced back to 1 Timothy 1:4.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  5. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Using external sources doesn't make one a competent scholar. And no, I didn't check what cases you used or the text. I prefer to check the writings of recognized experts, not online opinions from anyone/everyone.
     
  6. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And why not check an INTERLINER text that has HEBREW , GREEK and ENGLISH translations and will see that the KJV , EDIFYING is not in the Greek text , but the Greek word OIKONOMIA / DISPENSATION and these are not external sources .

    Anyone that checks out side sources will see that many Greek scholars see that the texts have many ELLIPSIS , words in ITALIC , METONYMYS , OXYMORON and this just a drop in a bucket .

    And in Luke 16:2 , 2 ,3 , 4 why are these Greek words used here ?

    Verse 1 , STEWARD / OIKONOMOS , CHECK G`3623 .

    Verse 2 , STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA , G3622 , in the Genitive case .

    Verse 2 STEWARD / OIKONOMEO , check G3621 ?

    Why the difference ?

    dan p
     
  7. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Ask Luke! Seriously, Bible translation from the source documents (which themselves are incomplete copies of the originals) is a difficult art/science which is best left to the experts. Simply looking up Greek in a reference is a poor way to determine the meaning, since the languages and cultures are so very different. Even the Septuagint and the Hebrew Bible are different versions of what we refer to as the Old Testament.

    I trust the best modern scholarship, which has given us excellent English translations, along with copious footnotes, for understanding the Bible. I do not trust amateurs who all too often distort the meaning of Scripture to fit their predetermined doctrine.
     
  8. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    So , how do you check Hebrew and Greek words ?

    Who are you trusting ?

    I use WILLIAN D MOUNCE who was a Pastor , and a school Professor and taught at GORDON-CONWELL THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY .

    If you are correct that many document are in complete copies of the originals , can we TRUST THEM incomplete and who them COMPLETED THEM ??

    dan p

    Have Greek book written by H E DANA and by J R MANTRY and by others who are recognized as scholars
     
  9. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I don't check Hebrew and Greek words, as there are such vast differences between the ancient languages and cultures and our own that I trust the experts to translate (in the fullest sense of the word) the source documents into modern English. I prefer the NET v 2.1. It is not only an excellent, well-researched translation but contains over 60,000 translator's notes that fully explain the word meanings and cultural differences between the best sources and modern English.
     
  10. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And there are more than 160 translations , so which one this the correct one ?

    It always will be a contention and will always use the KJV .

    My final word as to what I believe and many seem to think that the one who created the universe , left his word , called the bible in such a MESS and that man will fill and complete his word and why we have what is called TEXTUAL CRITICISM .

    dan p
     
  11. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    There is no such thing as "the correct one". In fact, it's impossible to create one as there is no one-to-one correspondence between the earliest source texts -- there are no originals --and the receptor language.

    What you believe is just your opinion, and there are those of us who disagree with you. Use the KJV if you wish -- that's your choice -- but other translations are better in my opinion.
     
  12. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    Are you saying that the 11 DEAD SEA SCROLLS are NOT real , that were found in 1946 and in 1956 , some 2000 years before the birth of Christ ?

    dan p
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021
  13. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Of course the Dead Sea Scrolls are real, so I don't understand your comment. They are a collection of ancient scrolls contain parts of some of the Bible "books", although I believe that one of them was a complete copy of the ":book" of Isaiah.

    What do you mean that the scrolls were discovered "some 2000 years before the birth of Christ"?
     
  14. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    It means that Isaiah 53 show the birth of Christ 2000 years before his birth is just ONE example and their are many such proof from the Greek and from the HEBREW text .

    dan p
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2021
  15. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    That is altogether different from saying that that the scrolls were discovered some 2000 years before the birth of Christ. The Dead Sea scrolls are not 4,000 years old simply because they contain the "book" of Isaiah. They are not the original works, they are copies. It would make just as much sense to say that our modern Bibles, including digital renditions, are actually thousands of years old because they contain ancient writings such as Isaiah.
     
  16. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    Did you not say that the whole book of Isaiah was found in those caves , and that means that the KJV and the manuscripts confirms what the KJV says .

    Or the whole bible is , just a fraud ..

    dan p
     
  17. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The complete scroll of Isaiah was found at Qumran. I'm don't understand why, because of the discovery of that scroll, it means a single thing about the King James translation, which was created many years later and has no relation to the Qumran community..

    The Isaiah Scroll, designated 1QIsaᵃ and also known as the Great Isaiah Scroll, is one of the seven Dead Sea Scrolls that were first discovered by Bedouin shepherds in 1946 from Qumran Cave 1. The scroll is written in Hebrew and contains the entire Book of Isaiah from beginning to end, apart from a few small damaged portions. It is the oldest complete copy of the Book of Isaiah, being approximately 1000 years older than the oldest Hebrew manuscripts known before the scrolls' discovery. 1QIsaᵃ is also notable in being the only scroll from the Qumran Caves to be preserved almost in its entirety. (source: wikipedia)
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
  18. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And Paul in 2 Tim 3:15 calls them scriptures and many translate them SACRED WRITING (G1121 and that are able to make you wise unto salvation thru FAITH which is in Christ Jesus .

    You are not saying that what Paul wrote are not real ,so what manuscripts do you believe are real and how old are they ?

    And the Greek word SCRIPTURES / SACRED is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and that means it means the END , or extant of motion or action , period !!

    And the Greek words CHRIST and JESUS are in the DATIVE CASE is the direct object of personal interest of this verse .

    dan p
     
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Of course what Paul wrote was real. What's the point of bringing that up?

    It's hard to imagine any manuscripts not being "real" -- as opposed to surreal or forgeries?

    There is a very large variety of Bible manuscripts, but they are all copies. There are no original manuscripts -- "books". Since they vary a lot in terms of their completeness and age, it's impossible to say how old they are.
     
  20. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And the word EDIFYING is not in the Greek text as it the Greek word OIKONOMIA / DISPESATION and the word EDIFTING is not , will say why you used redemptive as I can not find it in the Greek text ? So help me out >?

    dan p
     
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