LDS The McConkie-Bednar Testimony "Going after the one" vs "What does it matter"

[dzheremi]

This is a thought-provoking meditation on the parable of the lost sheep as it applies to those who have fallen away from the faith in Christianity, in comparison to the LDS leadership (as represented by Bruce R. McConkie and David A. Bednar) in their treatment of those who have fallen away from their organization. The uploader/commenter characterizes the difference between the two as "Going after the one" (the Christian approach) versus "What does it matter", as in the thread/video title.

What does it matter, indeed. Thoughts?

 

[Rescued One]

That was very interesting.

In the April 1980 General Conference, Bruce R. McConkie said the following:

"But what we can see causes us to rejoice and to tremble. We tremble because of the sorrows and wars and plagues that shall cover the earth. We weep for those in the true Church who are weak and wayward and worldly and who fall by the wayside as the caravan of the kingdom rolls forward."
The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory - Bruce R. McConkie

Not only are Mormon reactions different towards ex-Mormons, but even the leaders seem to change their minds.

Perhaps, David Bednar wanted to say, "many will fall away and not return, but the Church will still triumph." I don't know --- some Mormons were still kind to me after I left; others were afraid to talk to me. The fearful ones turned and walked away.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. That is a very interesting find, Phoebe Ann. Thanks for sharing it.

It makes me wonder what might have changed between 1980 and 1984 that led to such a change in attitude, and why the modern Mormon church and its subsequent leaders have chosen to reinforce the latter message and not the former, as in the Bednar talk.

Seems like it would be easy to say "The caravan rolls on, but we will stop to pick up those who have fallen away, because we care about them and love them and do not want them to be claimed by predators." Maybe they do say that somewhere, but the fact that they say this other thing is really shocking.

 

[Rescued One]

Hmm. That is a very interesting find, Phoebe Ann. Thanks for sharing it.

It makes me wonder what might have changed between 1980 and 1984 that led to such a change in attitude, and why the modern Mormon church and its subsequent leaders have chosen to reinforce the latter message and not the former, as in the Bednar talk.

Seems like it would be easy to say "The caravan rolls on, but we will stop to pick up those who have fallen away, because we care about them and love them and do not want them to be claimed by predators." Maybe they do say that somewhere, but the fact that they say this other thing is really shocking.

It's definitely sad.

 

[BigDaddy4]

When my wife requested removal of her name from the lds membership rolls 10-12 years ago, the form letter she received seemed to imply that her leaving the church had eternal consequences. They had no idea that she discovered the lds was not the "true church" it claimed to be and instead found the Jesus of the Bible, not the lds version. Certainly not a "going after the one" approach, IMO. Seemed very cold hearted to me.

 

[withwonderingawe]

This is a thought-provoking meditation on the parable of the lost sheep as it applies to those who have fallen away from the faith in Christianity, in comparison to the LDS leadership (as represented by Bruce R. McConkie and David A. Bednar) in their treatment of those who have fallen away from their organization. The uploader/commenter characterizes the difference between the two as "Going after the one" (the Christian approach) versus "What does it matter", as in the thread/video title.

What does it matter, indeed. Thoughts?

Humm, how come this video doesnt give a reference to the speach? I'd like to read it in full. Is it the same one Phoe quoted? If it is the it has been greatly edited, is that a Christian thing to do.

 

[Rescued One]

I did the research for you:

"The Church is like a great caravan—organized, prepared, following an appointed course, with its captains of tens and captains of hundreds all in place.

"What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on...

"Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on!"
Bruce R. McConkie, The Caravan Moves On, General Conference, October 1984
The Caravan Moves On - Bruce R. McConkie

My previous quote was from April 1980.

 

[Rescued One]

When my wife requested removal of her name from the lds membership rolls 10-12 years ago, the form letter she received seemed to imply that her leaving the church had eternal consequences. They had no idea that she discovered the lds was not the "true church" it claimed to be and instead found the Jesus of the Bible, not the lds version. Certainly not a "going after the one" approach, IMO. Seemed very cold hearted to me.

Oh, my letter from them was cold-hearted, too!

 

[BigDaddy4]

Oh, my letter from them was cold-hearted, too!

A form letter from a national organization who likely never knew who you were would definitely be cold-hearted to me.

When I served as an Elder in a denominational church, people would request removal of their names from our membership rolls. We would send them follow up letters to confirm we complied with their request and offer our prayers for them. Some were moving to other areas or other churches. But some either just didn't believe anymore or would not state their reasons. We would never even think to mention their "eternal consequences" for making such a decision. We trusted Jesus to keep his flock no matter where they went. And, the letter came from us, the local church, where they worshipped. Not our district, regional, or national office, who likely did not know these people personally like we did.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Strange how out of context this supposed Christian man twisted the words of Elder McConkie, is someone really a Christian when they behave with such a lying tongue?

Does anyone really think and apostle of the Lord would turn his back on the one, its incredible!

McConkie uses Paul’s challenge;

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Cor. 13:5.)

He is addressing the individual and gives 10 points to test or consider our true discipleship. The first couple you will agree with the question but not his answers.

*Test one: Do I worship the only true and living God?

Well he’s not talking about the Trinity,

*Test two: Do I believe in the fall of Adam?

He takes a swipe at evolution and says “By his fall, Adam introduced temporal and spiritual death into the world …” if we don’t believe that man is in a fallen state then the next question means nothing.

*Test three: Do I believe in the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ?

He bears his own witness as an Apostle of the Risen Lord, please note it’s not I believe but ‘I know!’ There is a reason he “knows”

“I am a witness that he was lifted up upon the cross of Calvary; that he was crucified, died, and rose again the third day; that he ascended into heaven, where, sitting on the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, he now reigns in everlasting glory; and that he will soon come again among the sons of men.

I know that he is the one Mediator between God and man; that he brings to pass the immortality and eternal life of man; that his is a ministry of reconciliation whereby fallen man can be reconciled with his Maker.

I know that salvation is in Christ and that only by faith in his name can we hope for the riches of eternity.

He is my Brother and Friend, but he is more. He is my Lord, my God, and my King, whom I worship in the full majesty of his Godhead and who will continue to be my Savior, my Redeemer, and my God through all the eternities that lie ahead.”

*Test four: Do I accept the true plan of salvation?

He quotes Act 2, faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The next three are similar and just goes against everything you believe.

*Test five: Do I believe the gospel as it has been restored in this final dispensation of grace?
*Test six: Am I a faithful member of the true Church?
* Test seven: Do I honor Joseph Smith as the great prophet of the Restoration?

I’m not sure why he separated them, when we say restored Gospel/true Church/Restoration it’s pretty much one and the same. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth through his prophet Joseph Smith. He directed Joseph to restart his church so that the true Gospel could be taught, can’t have one without the other.

**This is where the guy on the video miss represents what Elder McConkie is saying. He never intend it to say he doesn’t care about those who fall by the ways side. And, I’m going to add ten to this because they are similar.

*Test eight: Am I enduring to the end, growing in grace, and gaining the attributes of godliness?

That is to say: Am I growing in faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity—as Peter exhorted? (See 2 Pet. 1:5–7.)

….Am I walking in the light, as God is in the light, enjoying fellowship with the Saints, so that “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son” will cleanse me from all sin—as John promised? (1 Jn. 1:7.)
….Do I have a special and holy love for the Saints, thus identifying me as a true disciple—according to the word of the Lord Jesus? (See John 13:35.)

*Test ten: Am I so living that I will be saved in the kingdom of God?

This is our goal and aim and purpose in life. Everything we do should please the Lord and further our strivings for salvation.”

Well how does one go about pleasing the Lord except by showing “godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity” to the one?
He certainly never intended to say forget the one.

Test nine explains his intent;

Do I put first in my life the things of God’s kingdom? Is it with me and mine the kingdom of God or nothing?

“…When we put first in our lives the things of God’s kingdom, we are speaking of the earthly kingdom which prepares us for the heavenly kingdom.

With us, in this life and in the life to come, it is and should be the kingdom of God or nothing…..Jesus said: “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathered not with me scattereth abroad.” (Matt. 12:30.)”

This matters a great deal when we see, a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? He means; don’t pay attention to the yapping dog, yep a few will fall but keep your eye single to the glory of God.

He’s giving this talk in 1984, 34 years later we have the LGBT, the Feminist, Progressives etc all snapping and claiming those few who fall by the way?

But that does not stop the Church or caravan from moving forward.

It has other churches, there are some out there which have abandoned all semblance of teaching the Bible.

“Are there storms that rage along the way, floods that wash away the bridges, deserts to cross, and rivers to ford? Such is life in this fallen sphere. The caravan moves on.

Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on!”


Doesn’t matter all this yapping found here at the Lord’s true Church which he stands at the head of, it just keeps moving along preparing for the Second coming of our Lord and Savior. Some of you have jump off the caravan, sad but you can’t stop it.

 

[dzheremi]

Not that it matters, but the uploader (whose channel I follow on YouTube) has stated in other videos that he is not religious anymore. He is comparing Christianity to Mormonism because Mormonism claims to be Christian, not because he himself is Christian. So please drop the "this supposed Christian man" line of objection, as it is incorrect.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Not that it matters, but the uploader (whose channel I follow on YouTube) has stated in other videos that he is not religious anymore. He is comparing Christianity to Mormonism because Mormonism claims to be Christian, not because he himself is Christian. So please drop the "this supposed Christian man" line of objection, as it is incorrect.

Ah..... So don't trust anything he says



I'm wondering if he got permission to use Church material it's all copyrighted

 

[dzheremi]

Ah..... So don't trust anything he says

What? How did you get that out of "the man is not a self-professed Christian"?

I'm wondering if he got permission to use Church material it's all copyrighted

Seriously? It's a commentary on the video that uses pieces of it for illustrative purposes. This is clearly legal under fair use, which does not require the copyrighter's consent.

 

[Rescued One]

Strange how out of context this supposed Christian man twisted the words of Elder McConkie, is someone really a Christian when they behave with such a lying tongue?

Does anyone really think and apostle of the Lord would turn his back on the one, its incredible!

McConkie uses Paul’s challenge;

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Cor. 13:5.)

Well, McConkie can say anything he likes about his false church and her members. I left it to follow Christ. And the leaders send form letters to those who leave urging them to repent.

It is all summed up in these words:

Marion Romney (was part of the LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "

 

[Ironhold]

This is clearly legal under fair use, which does not require the copyrighter's consent.

Actually, YouTube's been pretty bad about recognizing what is and isn't "Fair Use".

Over the last few months there have been a number of instances in which legit fair usages were successfully challenged for copyright claim (that is, someone filed a claim with YouTube and YT agreed despite the material clearing the bar), whilst turning a blind eye to a number of instances where the bar hasn't been met.

 

[Rescued One]

Actually, if the source someone uses has distorted facts, the person who claims the facts are distorted should state which so-called facts are distorted and provide some proof that such is the case. If that accuser hasn't made it clear, he/she should provide more evidence that he/she knows McConkie's true feelings.

The letter I received was proof that the LDS leaders didn't even care enough to know anything about me.

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, YouTube's been pretty bad about recognizing what is and isn't "Fair Use".

Over the last few months there have been a number of instances in which legit fair usages were successfully challenged for copyright claim (that is, someone filed a claim with YouTube and YT agreed despite the material clearing the bar), whilst turning a blind eye to a number of instances where the bar hasn't been met.

Yes. That's precisely why YouTube's automated system of copyright claims and review is not the standard by which Fair Use is determined.

Generally speaking, actual lawyers consider factors such as the nature and purpose of the use, the amount of the original work used in the derived work, and the effect of the use on the market for the original in their determination of whether or not something falls under fair use. So rather than simply pointing out that something is under copyright, as WWA did, what should be asked is:

- Why is the copyrighted content being used?
- What is the nature of the original use?
- How much of the original work is used?
- How does the use of the copyrighted material affect the 'market value' of the original?

Obviously, the copyrighted content must be used or at least referred to in the exact words used, since that's the point of the commentary (to comment on McConkie's specific phrasing). I can't tell how much of the original is used in the commentary, as I've never seen the uncut original, but I'm going to guess it's a very small amount. And I can guess that with some accuracy, because the original October 1984 general conference talks are available on YouTube via the channel LDS General Conference, which also goes a ways toward answering the last question concerning the 'market value' of the original (read: it is not impacted negatively by the fact that there is a commentary on it, since it's not crowding out the original or seeking to replace the original; cf. pirated movies or tv shows, which provide the same experience as the original but for free, with no added transformational value that could potentially fall under fair use).

Here are actual lawyers talking about fair use, if anyone is interested:

(Synopsis of the four factors that go in to determining fair use)

(A longer explanation of fair use by lawyers at the Stanford Center for Internet and Society)