The Martyrdom of the Multitude

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Bernard Pyron

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The Martyrdom of the Multitude
Bernard Pyron

John 16: 2 teaches that "They shall put you out of the
synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth
you will think that he doeth God service,"
Aposunagogous here is from Strong's number 656, meaning,
"excommunicated, put out of the synagogue"

The protestant churches will kick Christians out of
their churches probably because these Christians no
longer conform to the theologies of the churches. The last
part of John 16:2 is significant, "...yea,
the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that
he doeth God service."

The teaching that a large group of Christians will be martyred during the
Tribulation is not now taught in the churches or in the seminaries. This
is largely because dispensationalism rejects the idea that God would judge
the Christian Church - and amillennialism within Reformed camps discourages
detailed study of end time Bible prophecy.

Paul in I Corinthians 14: 29-32 says that "Let the prophets speak two or three, and
let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace,.
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and may be comforted. And the spirits
of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

The teaching about Christians being martyred in the end times is in Scripture. But bringing
that teaching out now when dispensationalism and other man-made theologies are the authority
for almost all Christians makes it something new and not traditional.

If one were to pick a church in his area to go to in order to submit this prophecy about martyrdom of the Multitude to the preacher, if the preacher is a dispensationalist he is going to judge it on the basis of dispensationalist theology, not upon Scripture alone. And some Reformed pastors are also dispensationalists - or if amillennial may also deny that this is a valid teaching from the Bible.

Deuteronomy 32: 36 might be presented to the preacher as a proof text about the martyrdom of Christians in the end times, "For the Lord shall judge his people his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and that there is none shut up, or left."

This is an important verse in the Old Testament supporting the idea that God severely judges his people. It ties being shut up, or put in prison, and killed with God's judgment, and is a text supporting in principle at least the martyrdom of the Multitude in the Tribulation. But if you go to a preacher who is under the influence of dispensationalism with this he will say "No, Deuteronomy 32: 36 is for Old Testament Israel, not for the Church. God does not judge the bride of Christ." So, who is right, the one who believes Deuteronomy 32: 36 can be applied to the end timee, or that dispensationalist preacher?

The dominant theology in the churches now is dispensationalism.

The classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I. Scofield,
Lewis S. Chafer and Charles C. Ryrie - said that God has two
distinct peoples. One is physical Israel, the
Old Testament Hebrews physically descended from Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, and the other is
the Christian Church. The dispensationalist celebrity populizers
like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye followed
these early theologians and brought dispensationalism to many
other Christians. Dispensationalism,
as well as prosperity doctrines, has been spread to foreign
nations by American evangelists.

Christian Zionism comes out of classical dispensationalism which
developed along with this man made theology. At this point in time
John Hagee is the chief promoter of
Christian Zionism with his organization Christians United For Israel
(CUFI).

On a web site which I cannot cite because of the Christian Forum
ban on links they say:

"While McCain might be able to laugh this off as a little quip about
the foibles of Washington, to followers of Hagee and Parsley,
"spiritual warfare" is a very real part of everyday life, in which
they, as godly people, do battle with Satanic forces. When talking
about CUFI, though, talking about battles is really no joking matter,
since Hagee has been beating the drum for war with Iran -- which
he believes will result in the
world-ending battle at Armageddon -- for over two years."

John Hagee has endorsed John McCain, though McCain backed off to some extent from that endorsement.. Parsley, mentioned above,
is Rod Parsley, Regional Director in the CUFI organization and mentor
of John McCain.

"As godly people" Hagee and CUFI "do battle with Satanic forces."
In the near future when the Multitude who are now followers of
dispensationalism in the churches - and to some extent also accept
Christian Zionism - start to denounce the
dispensationalist claim that physical and unsaved Israel is God's
chosen people, Hagee and company might
decide these people are also their enemies?

If the Multitude start to say that we, the Christians, are spiritual
Israel and are God's chosen people according to I Peter 2: 9, and
the Jews are not, Christian Zionism might be used as the
justification for charging them under the Noahide Laws.

If fully enacted in the U.S., United Nations and World
Criminal Court, the Noahide Laws would move the Jews
substantially toward rule over the Gentiles. The
Noahide Laws are to apply to Gentiles, not to Jews. A
non-Jew child of Noah is said to be a "Noahide," who
must obey the Jewish law.

The Talmudic and Kabbalist rabbis claim that Noah gave
his descendants seven laws that we are to obey. They
say that Moses re-affirmed the Noahide Laws in the
oral Torah he gave along with the written law on
Sinai.

The seven Noahide Laws are as follows, though there
are many more detailed laws within each of the seven
categories:

l. Prohibition against idolatry

2. Prohibition against blasphemy

3. Prohibition against murder

4. Prohibition against theft

5. Prohibition against illicit sex

6. Prohibition against eating of live meat

7. Prohibition against the failure to establish
courts of justice.

The Encyclopedia Americana says on p. 737 that the
Noahide Laws "Are a Jewish Talmudic designation..."

The Jewish Lubavitch movement has promoted the
Noahide Laws. It is a Kabbalist movement that has
entered the apostate Christian church, in part
desguised as the Hebrew Roots Movement, the main
source of ideas for the Sacred Name cult.

It is called the Chabad Lubavitch movement, and
chabad is a term from Jewish Kabbalism meaning
intelligence, knowledge and wisdom.

The Encyclopedia of Religion states that the Lubavitch
Hasidic movement follows the Lurian system of
Kabbalism. The Lurian system of the Kaballah comes
from Rabbi Isaac Luria from the fifteen hundreds.
Rabbi Luria wrote in his book, Etz Chaim, about the
"Olam Ha-Tohu," the realm of confusion of the
sub-human Gentiles and the realm of "Olam Ha-Tikkun,"
which is the Restoration, the Zionist rule of the
Jews.

The Jewish Talmud and the Kaballah are involved in the
Noahide Laws. While
rabbis may claim the Talmud interprets the Old
Testament, in fact it negates it in many ways.

Talmudic rabbis over the centuries have used the
Talmud in creating a religion which is different and
often opposed to the Old Testament. The Talmud
teaches that the meaning in the Old Testament is not
in the texts themselves.

Jesus Christ totally rejected the Jewish tradition,
which was an early form of Talmudism, and Christ said
in John 8:44 to the Pharisees that "Ye are of your
father the devil..."

On March 20, 1991 President George Herbert Walker Bush
(Daddy Bush), in cooperation with the Jewish Kabbalist
Lubavitch movement got Congress to pass "Education
Day," which is Public Law 102-14. The law honors the
Lubavitch movement for promoting the Noahide Laws.
it was one of the first steps toward making the
Noahide Laws a part of U.S., United Nations and World
Criminal Court law.

The Encyclopedia of Judaism says the Babylonian Talmud
teaches that violation of any one of the Noahide Laws
"...subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by
decapitation (Sanh 57a)." "The Noahide" is any
Gentile.

The Pharisees did not believe that Jesus Christ was
God. To them there was only one God, Yehweh, although
they did not follow him. In addition, the Talmudic
and Kaballist rabbis of today - and most Jews - do not
accept Christ as being God. Since Christ in several
New Testament texts said he was God the Son doing the
will of his Father God, the Pharisees therefore
accused him of blasphemy, of claiming to be God when
he was, they thought, only a man.

Because the high priests, and the Pharisees, charged
Christ with blasphemy, his punishment was to be death.
A true Christian knows that Jesus Christ is fully
God, and so we too would be guilty of blasphemy under
the Noahide Laws.

Does not Revelation 20: 4 predict that
Christians will be beheaded, just as the Bablonian
Talmud teaches, that violation of the Noahide Laws is
punishable by beheading? This verse talks about the
souls of those who are beheaded.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Christians of the
Multitude might be identified as "terrorists" and categorized with
Islamics as enemies of Zionism-Christian Zionism-dispensationalism
and the Neocons. The build up of prejudice for Islamics which has
been going on for several years by the government and controlled
media - and by Christian Zionists - could be extended to Christians
who have come out false theologies and are
critical of them. Dispensationalism is one of the false theologies, but there is also Christian Identity, Sacred Name Theology and some others.

To the Christian Zionists the members of the Multitude
who denounce the dispensationalist claim that unsaved Jews are God's
chosen people are enemies of Israel just like the Islamics. Those who
use this scenario in having the members of the Christian Multitude
killed
will think they are doing God a
service. This may be just one scenario that leads to martyrdom of the
Multitude throughout the world.
 

HisdaughterJen

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The Martyrdom of the Multitude
Bernard Pyron

John 16: 2 teaches that "They shall put you out of the
synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth
you will think that he doeth God service,"
Aposunagogous here is from Strong's number 656, meaning,
"excommunicated, put out of the synagogue"

The protestant churches will kick Christians out of
their churches probably because these Christians no
longer conform to the theologies of the churches. The last
part of John 16:2 is significant, "...yea,
the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that
he doeth God service."

The teaching that a large group of Christians will be martyred during the
Tribulation is not now taught in the churches or in the seminaries. This
is largely because dispensationalism rejects the idea that God would judge
the Christian Church - and amillennialism within Reformed camps discourages
detailed study of end time Bible prophecy.

Paul in I Corinthians 14: 29-32 says that "Let the prophets speak two or three, and
let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace,.
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and may be comforted. And the spirits
of the prophets are subject to the prophets."

The teaching about Christians being martyred in the end times is in Scripture. But bringing
that teaching out now when dispensationalism and other man-made theologies are the authority
for almost all Christians makes it something new and not traditional.

If one were to pick a church in his area to go to in order to submit this prophecy about martyrdom of the Multitude to the preacher, if the preacher is a dispensationalist he is going to judge it on the basis of dispensationalist theology, not upon Scripture alone. And some Reformed pastors are also dispensationalists - or if amillennial may also deny that this is a valid teaching from the Bible.

Deuteronomy 32: 36 might be presented to the preacher as a proof text about the martyrdom of Christians in the end times, "For the Lord shall judge his people his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and that there is none shut up, or left."

This is an important verse in the Old Testament supporting the idea that God severely judges his people. It ties being shut up, or put in prison, and killed with God's judgment, and is a text supporting in principle at least the martyrdom of the Multitude in the Tribulation. But if you go to a preacher who is under the influence of dispensationalism with this he will say "No, Deuteronomy 32: 36 is for Old Testament Israel, not for the Church. God does not judge the bride of Christ." So, who is right, the one who believes Deuteronomy 32: 36 can be applied to the end timee, or that dispensationalist preacher?

The dominant theology in the churches now is dispensationalism.

The classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I. Scofield,
Lewis S. Chafer and Charles C. Ryrie - said that God has two
distinct peoples. One is physical Israel, the
Old Testament Hebrews physically descended from Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, and the other is
the Christian Church. The dispensationalist celebrity populizers
like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye followed
these early theologians and brought dispensationalism to many
other Christians. Dispensationalism,
as well as prosperity doctrines, has been spread to foreign
nations by American evangelists.

Christian Zionism comes out of classical dispensationalism which
developed along with this man made theology. At this point in time
John Hagee is the chief promoter of
Christian Zionism with his organization Christians United For Israel
(CUFI).

On a web site which I cannot cite because of the Christian Forum
ban on links they say:

"While McCain might be able to laugh this off as a little quip about
the foibles of Washington, to followers of Hagee and Parsley,
"spiritual warfare" is a very real part of everyday life, in which
they, as godly people, do battle with Satanic forces. When talking
about CUFI, though, talking about battles is really no joking matter,
since Hagee has been beating the drum for war with Iran -- which
he believes will result in the
world-ending battle at Armageddon -- for over two years."

John Hagee has endorsed John McCain, though McCain backed off to some extent from that endorsement.. Parsley, mentioned above,
is Rod Parsley, Regional Director in the CUFI organization and mentor
of John McCain.

"As godly people" Hagee and CUFI "do battle with Satanic forces."
In the near future when the Multitude who are now followers of
dispensationalism in the churches - and to some extent also accept
Christian Zionism - start to denounce the
dispensationalist claim that physical and unsaved Israel is God's
chosen people, Hagee and company might
decide these people are also their enemies?

If the Multitude start to say that we, the Christians, are spiritual
Israel and are God's chosen people according to I Peter 2: 9, and
the Jews are not, Christian Zionism might be used as the
justification for charging them under the Noahide Laws.

If fully enacted in the U.S., United Nations and World
Criminal Court, the Noahide Laws would move the Jews
substantially toward rule over the Gentiles. The
Noahide Laws are to apply to Gentiles, not to Jews. A
non-Jew child of Noah is said to be a "Noahide," who
must obey the Jewish law.

The Talmudic and Kabbalist rabbis claim that Noah gave
his descendants seven laws that we are to obey. They
say that Moses re-affirmed the Noahide Laws in the
oral Torah he gave along with the written law on
Sinai.

The seven Noahide Laws are as follows, though there
are many more detailed laws within each of the seven
categories:

l. Prohibition against idolatry

2. Prohibition against blasphemy

3. Prohibition against murder

4. Prohibition against theft

5. Prohibition against illicit sex

6. Prohibition against eating of live meat

7. Prohibition against the failure to establish
courts of justice.

The Encyclopedia Americana says on p. 737 that the
Noahide Laws "Are a Jewish Talmudic designation..."

The Jewish Lubavitch movement has promoted the
Noahide Laws. It is a Kabbalist movement that has
entered the apostate Christian church, in part
desguised as the Hebrew Roots Movement, the main
source of ideas for the Sacred Name cult.

It is called the Chabad Lubavitch movement, and
chabad is a term from Jewish Kabbalism meaning
intelligence, knowledge and wisdom.

The Encyclopedia of Religion states that the Lubavitch
Hasidic movement follows the Lurian system of
Kabbalism. The Lurian system of the Kaballah comes
from Rabbi Isaac Luria from the fifteen hundreds.
Rabbi Luria wrote in his book, Etz Chaim, about the
"Olam Ha-Tohu," the realm of confusion of the
sub-human Gentiles and the realm of "Olam Ha-Tikkun,"
which is the Restoration, the Zionist rule of the
Jews.

The Jewish Talmud and the Kaballah are involved in the
Noahide Laws. While
rabbis may claim the Talmud interprets the Old
Testament, in fact it negates it in many ways.

Talmudic rabbis over the centuries have used the
Talmud in creating a religion which is different and
often opposed to the Old Testament. The Talmud
teaches that the meaning in the Old Testament is not
in the texts themselves.

Jesus Christ totally rejected the Jewish tradition,
which was an early form of Talmudism, and Christ said
in John 8:44 to the Pharisees that "Ye are of your
father the devil..."

On March 20, 1991 President George Herbert Walker Bush
(Daddy Bush), in cooperation with the Jewish Kabbalist
Lubavitch movement got Congress to pass "Education
Day," which is Public Law 102-14. The law honors the
Lubavitch movement for promoting the Noahide Laws.
it was one of the first steps toward making the
Noahide Laws a part of U.S., United Nations and World
Criminal Court law.

The Encyclopedia of Judaism says the Babylonian Talmud
teaches that violation of any one of the Noahide Laws
"...subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by
decapitation (Sanh 57a)." "The Noahide" is any
Gentile.

The Pharisees did not believe that Jesus Christ was
God. To them there was only one God, Yehweh, although
they did not follow him. In addition, the Talmudic
and Kaballist rabbis of today - and most Jews - do not
accept Christ as being God. Since Christ in several
New Testament texts said he was God the Son doing the
will of his Father God, the Pharisees therefore
accused him of blasphemy, of claiming to be God when
he was, they thought, only a man.

Because the high priests, and the Pharisees, charged
Christ with blasphemy, his punishment was to be death.
A true Christian knows that Jesus Christ is fully
God, and so we too would be guilty of blasphemy under
the Noahide Laws.

Does not Revelation 20: 4 predict that
Christians will be beheaded, just as the Bablonian
Talmud teaches, that violation of the Noahide Laws is
punishable by beheading? This verse talks about the
souls of those who are beheaded.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Christians of the
Multitude might be identified as "terrorists" and categorized with
Islamics as enemies of Zionism-Christian Zionism-dispensationalism
and the Neocons. The build up of prejudice for Islamics which has
been going on for several years by the government and controlled
media - and by Christian Zionists - could be extended to Christians
who have come out false theologies and are
critical of them. Dispensationalism is one of the false theologies, but there is also Christian Identity, Sacred Name Theology and some others.

To the Christian Zionists the members of the Multitude
who denounce the dispensationalist claim that unsaved Jews are God's
chosen people are enemies of Israel just like the Islamics. Those who
use this scenario in having the members of the Christian Multitude
killed
will think they are doing God a
service. This may be just one scenario that leads to martyrdom of the
Multitude throughout the world.


Take a closer look:

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.





These people are part of the Bride. They are those who have died in Christ as martyrs for the last nearly 2000 years. How do I know? Because of the question they ask and the timing of the 5th seal.

They want to know when God will avenge. God tells them that MORE MARTYRS must happen before final judgment. In Rev, who are the "more martyrs"? The people who die at the hands of the beast.

Notice the answer doesn't stop the reward. They are given "white robes".
What are the white robes? Rev 19 tells us that they are the "bridal clothes". These martyrs are part of the Bride and they are given "bridal clothes". What sort of garments is the church expecting to be given as the Bride? GLORIFIED BODIES!

This is a no-brainer, folks.
 
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Bernard Pyron

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HisdaughterJen wrote: "These people are part of the Bride. They are those who have died in Christ as martyrs for the last nearly 2000 years. How do I know? Because of the question they ask and the timing of the 5th seal.

They want to know when God will avenge. God tells them that MORE MARTYRS must happen before final judgment. In Rev, who are the "more martyrs"? The people who die at the hands of the beast."

In Revelation 13 there are two beasts. The first beast is found in verses
1-10, who comes up out of the sea. The second beast is in verses 11-18.
Which one initiates the killing of the Multitude?

Remember that Pilate. the Roman authority, who represents government, did not initiate the killing of Christ. In fact, Pilate in Luke 23: 14-17 said he found no fault in Christ and wanted to release him. But the Pharisees and Jews insised he be crucified.

These two beasts of Revelation 13 are not too easy to interpret. In fact,
their characteristics may be different at different points in time as they
unfold.

The second beast can be said to be false religion, specifically false Christianity.
In Verse 11 "...he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." In Verse 12 he causes people to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. Christians have proposed all kinds of "deadly wounds," even saying that Hitler had a deadly wound and would somehow rise up again.
What if the beast who received the deadly wound is the nation of Israel?

Israel received a deadly wound in 70 AD when it was totally defeated by a Roman army. A nation called Israel came into being in 1948. Could this be the nation whose deadly wound was healed. Who causes Christians to worship this nation of Israel? Now its John Hagee and his Christians United For Israel, but there may be some successor to Hagee later on.

We might say that the first beast who comes up out of the sea is also
made up of the leopard, the bear and the lion, seen in Revelation 13: 2, which go back to Daniel 7: 4-6. These beasts of Daniel 7 seem to be
political empires, or governments, parallel to but not identical to the empires of Daniel 2.

So we could say that at one level the first beast is government, either
a composite world government of some kind from the leopard, the lion and the bear, and/or the little nation of Israel?

Scripture, such as
Matthew 24: 9-11, Luke 21: 16, Luke 12: 11 , John 16:2 and Revelation 9 on the trumpet judgments does not support the idea that government
initiates the persecution and killing of the Multitude. Rather it says
in Matthew 24: 10 that many shall betray one another, meaning many
people in the Churches who claim to be Christian will betray other Christians.
Luke 21: 16 says Christians will be betrayed by parents, kinfolks and friends
and these Christians will be put to death. Luke 12: 11 says they will bring Christians into the saynagogues which Strong's says can mean churches,
and before magistrates, or judges. "They" who bring the Christians before judges are not the government, but are other "Christians."

John 16: 2 says "they" will put Christians out of the churches and "...whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." The implication here is that whosoever killed you is not some agency of government
but those in the church.

See my post on The Players of the Trumpet Judgments which also supports
the notion that the chuches initiate the killing of the multitude, not the
governmet, though the government may eventually carry out the killing.
 
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Biblewriter

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This post is nothing but typical unfounded alarmism.

In the first place, the charges are patently false. I have never known even one dispensational church that excommunicated, or otherwise severely censured anyone that did not believe in dispensationalism. They would not allow such a person to teach in their midst, but that is normal throughout Christianity. The church is charged in the scriptures to maintain doctrinal purity, so any church that believed in dispensationalism would be disobeying their scriptural mandate if they allowed someone who did not believe this to teach in their midst. That is because they think this is error. So if they allowed it to be taught in their midst, they would be allowing what they believe to be false doctrine to be taught in their midst. Since they believe such doctrine contradicts the scriptures, it would be sin on their part if they were to allow it to be taught in their midst.

No real Christian would ever take part in persecution of those they do not agree with. Regardless of whether or not their doctrines are correct, there cannot be a shadow of a doubt that dispensationalists are, as a whole, real, true Christians.

But the falsehood of this post does not end there. I have visited many churches, of many persuasions, for many years. Some of them believed in dispensationalism, and some did not. I have rubbed shoulders with many of the most famous dispensational teachers, and read the books of many others. And I can assure Bernard Pyron that not even one dispensational teacher that I have ever known has denied that there will be a multitude of martyrs during the tribulation period.

What these teachers deny is that these martyrs will be Christians of the present age. They believe that there will be a multitude of new converts during this period, and that many of these will be martyred during this period. But they do not imagine, as Bernard has, that this will be done by any real Christian. The scriptures clearly tell us that this will be done by those that are attempting to force all men to worship the Antichrist. No real Christian would ever attempt to force anyone to worship a manifestly false god.

The OP in this thread works against its apparent goal of persuading others to reject dispensationalism. Such manifestly false accusations only drive people away from the doctrine they are advocating.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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HisdaughterJen wrote: "These people are part of the Bride. They are those who have died in Christ as martyrs for the last nearly 2000 years. How do I know? Because of the question they ask and the timing of the 5th seal.

They want to know when God will avenge. God tells them that MORE MARTYRS must happen before final judgment. In Rev, who are the "more martyrs"? The people who die at the hands of the beast."

In Revelation 13 there are two beasts. The first beast is found in verses
1-10, who comes up out of the sea. The second beast is in verses 11-18.
Which one initiates the killing of the Multitude?

Remember that Pilate. the Roman authority, who represents government, did not initiate the killing of Christ. In fact, Pilate in Luke 23: 14-17 said he found no fault in Christ and wanted to release him. But the Pharisees and Jews insised he be crucified.

These two beasts of Revelation 13 are not too easy to interpret. In fact,
their characteristics may be different at different points in time as they
unfold.

The second beast can be said to be false religion, specifically false Christianity.
In Verse 11 "...he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." In Verse 12 he causes people to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. Christians have proposed all kinds of "deadly wounds," even saying that Hitler had a deadly wound and would somehow rise up again.
What if the beast who received the deadly wound is the nation of Israel?

Israel received a deadly wound in 70 AD when it was totally defeated by a Roman army. A nation called Israel came into being in 1948. Could this be the nation whose deadly wound was healed. Who causes Christians to worship this nation of Israel? Now its John Hagee and his Christians United For Israel, but there may be some successor to Hagee later on.

We might say that the first beast who comes up out of the sea is also
made up of the leopard, the bear and the lion, seen in Revelation 13: 2, which go back to Daniel 7: 4-6. These beasts of Daniel 7 seem to be
political empires, or governments, parallel to but not identical to the empires of Daniel 2.

So we could say that at one level the first beast is government, either
a composite world government of some kind from the leopard, the lion and the bear, and/or the little nation of Israel?

Scripture, such as
Matthew 24: 9-11, Luke 21: 16, Luke 12: 11 , John 16:2 and Revelation 9 on the trumpet judgments does not support the idea that government
initiates the persecution and killing of the Multitude. Rather it says
in Matthew 24: 10 that many shall betray one another, meaning many
people in the Churches who claim to be Christian will betray other Christians.
Luke 21: 16 says Christians will be betrayed by parents, kinfolks and friends
and these Christians will be put to death. Luke 12: 11 says they will bring Christians into the saynagogues which Strong's says can mean churches,
and before magistrates, or judges. "They" who bring the Christians before judges are not the government, but are other "Christians."

John 16: 2 says "they" will put Christians out of the churches and "...whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." The implication here is that whosoever killed you is not some agency of government
but those in the church.

See my post on The Players of the Trumpet Judgments which also supports
the notion that the chuches initiate the killing of the multitude, not the
governmet, though the government may eventually carry out the killing.


Ok, Revelation and the Old Testament tell us who the two beasts are.

It is the false prophet, the beast out of the earth/abyss, who is the one who kills most people. Rev 11 says that the beast out of the abyss (earth) kills the two witnesses.



The beast/10 kings is the beast out of the sea. It is this:

Rev 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Rev 17:13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.




The beast out of the sea is a coalition of 10 men of the earth who agree to put their governmental power together to form this beast who will rule the earth. This system/organization will be "given a mouth", a representative, a leader who will proclaim that he is God and slander God.

This "mouth" is the one who suffers a mortal wound:
Rev 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
...

Rev 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty‑two months.
Rev 13:6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.




Zec 11:17"Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!"


Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.



It sounds to me like an assassination attempt on the life of the "mouth" or representative of the beast, the one who blasphemes God.


After the "mouth" is incapacitated, the devil opens the abyss and lets out abaddon/appolyon who appears to be the 2nd beast.

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

Rev 9:11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon




Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.




It is the 2nd beast that sets up the image of the 1st beast and forces people to worship it. It is the 2nd beast that forces the mark. It is the 2nd beast that performs miraculous signs to deceive people.

Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
Rev 13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
Rev 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.




While the first beast, itself, is a government or a coalition, it is given a "mouth" or representative who proclaims that he is God. It is this representative that gets the head wound. It is this representative whose image people are forced to worship. Both "beasts", therefore, are men who are given the power of the devil or possibly even "possessed" by the devil.

Rev 16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.




Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Bernard, I think you are on to something the pretribbers are in for a big surprise, and it seem like that surprise is coming sooner rather than later.

What do you mean? Are you talking about the world powers coming together to create a new global financial system?
 
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onwingsaseagles

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What do you mean? Are you talking about the world powers coming together to create a new global financial system?
I mean when the tribulation hits like a kick in the stomach, you will have no idea it was coming even though all the signs that are in our face, because of your false hope of being whisked away to heaven at the last second.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I mean when the tribulation hits like a kick in the stomach, you will have no idea it was coming even though all the signs that are in our face, because of your false hope of being whisked away to heaven at the last second.

As you know, we have been enduring the tribulation as defined by Christ (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom) since Christ ascended and opened those first four seals.

The very next thing that's left is the end of THAT tribulation followed by the giving of white robes to the bride, followed by the sun/moon darkening which the Bible says (in more than one place) is the BEGINNING of judgment and wrath. We are not appointed to suffer wrath, Biblically.

YOU define "tribulation" as the trumpets, the bowls, the beasts, the two witnesses even when the Bible says specifically that these things are judgment and wrath and happen AFTER the sun/moon darken.


Furthermore, I'm not going to buy into fear. That is not of God. What more can the devil possibly do to me, onwingsaseagles, that I should fear the devil? (which is what you are preaching with your "wrath of the devil" mantra)
I, and people like me, have already given our lives over to Christ. Even if our bodies die, we continue to live and we will get our body back in glorified form soon after. There's nothing more that can be done to us. Do you understand that?

:hug: God bless you, onwings'. There is nothing for us to do but love the Lord and trust in Him, come what may. God made a promise and He is faithful to keep it.

Jhn 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Jhn 14:4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”




1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
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Bernard Pyron

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"Furthermore, I am not going to buy into fear." Study of the Scriptures on what
is going to happen in the end times to the Multitude at the hands of the serpents
and scorpions of the Church should lead to faith, to waiting on the Lord to do what he
has promised to do, to bring a huge group of Christians out of false doctrines into the
truth by "fire" which includes the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation 9.

Onwingsaseagles wrote "I mean when the tribulation hits like a kick in the stomach, you will have no idea it is coming even though the signs that are in our face because
of your false hope of being wisked away to heaven at the last second."

People who believe in the Rapture theory would be expecting to leave planet earth
for heaven before the Tribulation begins and when it does begin and they are still here
they might have to reconsider the Rapture theory. But still, they may stick to Jewish
supremacy, as another vital part of dispensationalist theology.

But the Scriptures that point to judgment on the Church in the Tribulation are ignored
by the dispensationalists, the Church. The dispensationalist Church believes that after they are all Raptured,
then a series of increasingly harmful events will happen to the earth, all in the
physical, while judgment on the house of God is spiritual, meant to refine the Multitude. The dispensationalist Church won't know the tribulation as judgment
on the house of God is going on and will continue looking for the tribulation as physical
events that harm the earth. Its possible that all the "physical" events described in end time
prophecy are metaphors for the spiritual judgments. But its also possible that
at some point in the tribulation some physical events that harm things could occur. If thats the case I suspect the real physical events will happen deep into the tribulation
and until that happens the Church won't know we are in the tribulation.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I mean the tribulation not tribulations, and I mean the biblical view of what the tribulation is not yours.

Ok, one more time.

Here is what Jesus said "the tribulation" is:

Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Mat 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.




Did you catch all that? Wars, famines, persecution, martyrdom, etc.


Then Jesus gets specific as to when it starts (and ends) for Israel:

Mat 24:15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
Mat 24:18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.
Mat 24:22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.



It started in 70AD for Israel and ended with the holocaust/WW2 or else no one would have survived. They are currently in a 70 year generation since the days (2) were cut short and they became a nation again.

Mic 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.



Isa 66:8Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.




Do you see that?

Now, "the tribulation" (defined by Jesus himself) continues until the sun/moon darken.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



In Rev 6, the sun/moon darken in the 6th seal. It actually says that this is when the "day of wrath" begins. It is confirmed by Joel 2.

If the sun/moon darken in the 6th seal. Then "the tribulation" was prior to that....namely, seals 1-4! Seals 1-4 are wars, famines, plagues...all the things that Jesus said "the tribulation" is! Go figure!

Between seals 1-4 (the tribulation) and seal #6 (the beginning of the day of wrath) is seal #5! Seal #5 is the giving of white robes (bridal clothes) to the BRIDE! AKA the Rapture! And seal #7 is the outpouring of judgment and wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls! AND then Jesus comes with the angels to destroy an army formed against Him and all the evil.
 
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Biblewriter

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"Furthermore, I am not going to buy into fear." Study of the Scriptures on what
is going to happen in the end times to the Multitude at the hands of the serpents
and scorpions of the Church should lead to faith, to waiting on the Lord to do what he
has promised to do, to bring a huge group of Christians out of false doctrines into the
truth by "fire" which includes the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation 9.

This is simply and blatantly false. There is not even one scripture that says that the church will persecute anyone.

Onwingsaseagles wrote "I mean when the tribulation hits like a kick in the stomach, you will have no idea it is coming even though the signs that are in our face because
of your false hope of being wisked away to heaven at the last second."

People who believe in the Rapture theory would be expecting to leave planet earth
for heaven before the Tribulation begins and when it does begin and they are still here
they might have to reconsider the Rapture theory. But still, they may stick to Jewish
supremacy, as another vital part of dispensationalist theology.

Jewish supremacy, as you choose to call it, is a vital part of dispensational theology because it is explicitly stated in many prophecies of the Bible. You simply choose to ignore these very many very explicit prophecies.

But you wholly misunderstand dispensational theology. Although we teach "Jewish supremacy," as you choose to call it, we do not teach that this will happen until after they finally repent and turn to the Lord Jesus. (There are a few aberations to this, such as John Hagee, but I am speaking of classical dispensationalists.)

The scriptures very plainly say that the Lord will hide his face from them, and that in all the land two-thirds of them shall be cut off and die. Many scriptural prophecies that have plainly not been fulfilled show that this will take place in a future day. This is the time we call "the tribulation."

But the Scriptures that point to judgment on the Church in the Tribulation are ignored
by the dispensationalists, the Church.

The scriptures you refer to never say that these judgments are poured out on the church. They say things you interpret to mean that. But they never say that.

The dispensationalist Church believes that after they are all Raptured,
then a series of increasingly harmful events will happen to the earth, all in the
physical, while judgment on the house of God is spiritual, meant to refine the Multitude.

Where did you get this idea? The classical dispensationalists interpreted most of these judgments as being spiritual, and as being largely poured out on the falsely professing church, which will be left here after all the true believers in Christ have been raptured out.

Your malice against those who disagree with you shows the true source of your system of interpretation. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. We see this kind of attitude continually in His daughterjen. Although she disagrees significantly with me on many issues, she has always been respectful in her disagreement. But the works of the flesh include hatred, wrath, and strife. (Galatians 5:19-23) Although we occasionally see such malice in pre-tribbers, including a few here on this forum, it is stock in trade for post-tribbers.
 
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Bernard Pyron

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HisdaughterJen says:

"Mat 24:15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house."

Lets extend the text a little:
Matthew 24:15."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Some prophecy is difficult to interpret, and we often get it wrong.

Is Matthew 24: 15 to 20 a literal warning by Christ to the Christians in
Jerusalem at about the time in 70 A.D. when the Roman army had the city under attack. Is he literally telling them to get out of the city immediately
when they see the abomination of desolation?

What is the abomination of desolation? The rapturists say its "antichrist"
going into the Temple in Jerusalem with a pig under his arm which he
sacrifices there to pollute the holy temple.

But it is not even certain there is to be one person who is antichrist.
1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7 say there are many antichrists in th world,
that whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, that every spirit which denies
Christ came in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist, and II John 7 pretty much repeats that. No antichrist as a single individual is clearly seen anywhere in the Bible and the word does not even appear in Revelation.

A possibility is that Matthew 25: 15-20 is using the warning to flee Jerusalem right before 70 A.D. in a metaphoric sense for the last days Tribulation.

In II Thessalonians 2: 4 the "man of sin" "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshippd; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Paul says in I Corinthians 3: 16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?" If the "man of sin" is Satan or one of his important minions, who could be posing as a Christian, then he could be sitting in the temple of God which is the minds, and hearts of Christians who have accepted this false prophet or false prophets.

Just as in Old Testament times the abomination of desolation was a literal
desecration of the Temple of God by the sacrifice of an unclean animal there, so in New Testament times the abomination of desolation is Satan or his false prophets taking over the minds and hearts of Chritians who have accepted these false prophets.

Then HisdaughterJen says "
It started in 70AD for Israel and ended with the holocaust/WW2 or else no one would have survived. They are currently in a 70 year generation since the days (2) were cut short and they became a nation again."

"It" is the tribulation. Is this almost 2000 year old tribulation only for "Israel"
which apparently is the Jews?

Remember that in Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the question asked
him by his disciples in Matthew 24: 1-3, "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The disciples were asking Christ two questions, when would the temple be
totally destroyed - which was in 70 A.D. - and what will be the sign of his second appearing and of the end of the world or the end of the age.

Christ is talking to them about the events of 70 A.D., the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army, and about the events of the end of the age.
We have to sort out the two events.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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HisdaughterJen says:

"Mat 24:15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house."

Lets extend the text a little:
Matthew 24:15."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Some prophecy is difficult to interpret, and we often get it wrong.

Is Matthew 24: 15 to 20 a literal warning by Christ to the Christians in
Jerusalem at about the time in 70 A.D. when the Roman army had the city under attack. Is he literally telling them to get out of the city immediately
when they see the abomination of desolation?

What is the abomination of desolation? The rapturists say its "antichrist"
going into the Temple in Jerusalem with a pig under his arm which he
sacrifices there to pollute the holy temple.

But it is not even certain there is to be one person who is antichrist.
1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7 say there are many antichrists in th world,
that whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, that every spirit which denies
Christ came in the flesh is of the spirit of antichrist, and II John 7 pretty much repeats that. No antichrist as a single individual is clearly seen anywhere in the Bible and the word does not even appear in Revelation.

A possibility is that Matthew 25: 15-20 is using the warning to flee Jerusalem right before 70 A.D. in a metaphoric sense for the last days Tribulation.

In II Thessalonians 2: 4 the "man of sin" "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshippd; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Paul says in I Corinthians 3: 16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?" If the "man of sin" is Satan or one of his important minions, who could be posing as a Christian, then he could be sitting in the temple of God which is the minds, and hearts of Christians who have accepted this false prophet or false prophets.

Just as in Old Testament times the abomination of desolation was a literal
desecration of the Temple of God by the sacrifice of an unclean animal there, so in New Testament times the abomination of desolation is Satan or his false prophets taking over the minds and hearts of Chritians who have accepted these false prophets.

Then HisdaughterJen says "
It started in 70AD for Israel and ended with the holocaust/WW2 or else no one would have survived. They are currently in a 70 year generation since the days (2) were cut short and they became a nation again."

"It" is the tribulation. Is this almost 2000 year old tribulation only for "Israel"
which apparently is the Jews?

Remember that in Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the question asked
him by his disciples in Matthew 24: 1-3, "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The disciples were asking Christ two questions, when would the temple be
totally destroyed - which was in 70 A.D. - and what will be the sign of his second appearing and of the end of the world or the end of the age.

Christ is talking to them about the events of 70 A.D., the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army, and about the events of the end of the age.
We have to sort out the two events.


The "tribulation" as Jesus described it in Matt 24 is for the world, the Christians, and for the Jews. Here is how it's differentiated:

regarding the church/world:

Mat 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Mat 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.




Regarding Jerusalem/Israel:

Mat 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
Mat 24:18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.
Mat 24:22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.







Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.





Now, Biblically, when does the sun/moon darken? Before or after the trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls a.k.a. the DAY OF WRATH?


Joe 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.





Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
Rev 6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Rev 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”



THEN comes seal #7 which are the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, the bowls....AND THEN Christ physically comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against Him.



Did anyone catch that? The order of events as Jesus described them is:

1. Abom of Desolation of Jerusalem/Israel by Rome
2. Tribulation
3. Sun/moon darken
4. Day of wrath which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, the bowls.
5. Physical return of Christ with angels to destroy evil and army formed against Him.



Doesn't anyone find it interesting that the riders/horsemen (seals 1-4) are this:

Eze 14:21 “For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!



Doesn't anyone see how this was sent against Jerusalem in 70AD?

It's just another way that we know (besides Matt 23 and Luke 21) that Jesus was indeed referring to the desolation of 70AD and that "the tribulation" as defined by Jesus, himself, has been going on since then.

Another way to prove it is Rev 7. The great multitude have come out of great tribulation and have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb". This is a direct reference to Exodus 19:10-20 which describes Moses (symbolic of Jesus) consecrating the people of God and has them wash their clothes for two days (2000 years) because on the morning of the 3rd Day (millennium) at the sound of a Jubilee trumpet call of God, God comes down to meet with the people who are led out of the camp to meet with God. Anyone who has washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb is a believer in Christ. How long have there been believers in Christ...2000 years! Therefore, how long is great tribulation? 2000 years! When will we be "led out of the camp to meet with God" at the sound of a trumpet call? On the morning of the 3rd Day!
 
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Bible2

Guest
Some protestant churches already kick Christians out
of their churches because these Christians don't
conform to the theologies of the churches. For
example, a man was kicked out of a Pentecostal church
for telling someone in the church that divorce and
remarriage is adultery (Luke 16:18, Mark 10:12,
Matthew 19:9, Romans 7:3, 1 Corinthians 7:11). And
a man was kicked out of a Calvary Chapel church for
telling the pastor that the pre-trib doctrine is
wrong (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31,
24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

But John 16:2 doesn't apply to such churches, for
they don't and won't kill anyone over doctrinal
disputes. Jesus forbids Christians to use any force
against those they consider (whether rightly or
wrongly) to be their enemies (Matthew 26:52, 5:39).
All that's allowed is excommunication
(2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, 1 Corinthians 5:11-13).

So John 16:2 would apply only to those who say they
believe in God but don't believe in the new
testament, such as non-Christian religious Jews, as
well as Muslims. It would also include the gnostic
Luciferians who will worship Lucifer and the
Antichrist during the reign of the Antichrist
(Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will claim that
he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4). So his followers will
kill Christians thinking that they're doing God
service.

---

The great multitude part of the church which will come
out of the coming tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14) will
come out of it by dying in the seal events of the
chapter just prior (chapter 6), which will include a
great war, probably nuclear, followed by great famine
and epidemics, martyrdom, and what could be a
cataclysmic volcanic eruption. So the people in the
great multitude will die in a lot of different ways,
not just by being murdered for their faith in Jesus
(Matthew 24:9-13).

---

Hebrews 10:30, Psalms 50:4-5 (cf. Mark 13:27), and
Daniel 12:7 (cf. Revelation 13:5-10) show that
Deuteronomy 32:36 does apply to the church.

---

Anyone who is beating the drum for war with Iran,
thinking that this will help Israel, could see a
cruel irony in the future. For what could happen is
that the U.S. could build up a huge Iraqi Army to
invade Iran, but then this army could turn and make
a surprise attack on tiny Israel instead, completely
wiping it out (Daniel 11:15-16).

---

The Bible says that the elect part of physical and
unsaved Israel is still part of God's chosen people
(Romans 11).

---

The beheading of Christians by the Antichrist
(Revelation 20:4) doesn't have to be based on the
Babylonian Talmud, nor will it be for violation of
the Noahide Laws punishable by beheading (according
to the Talmud), for the Antichrist could be an Arab
who will come out of Tyre, Lebanon (Ezekiel 28:2,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and the Arabs have always
beheaded people. And the Antichrist will behead
people for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God,
for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving
his mark upon their foreheads or their hands
(Revelation 20:4).

---

In the future, fundamentalist Christians could very
well be identified as "terrorists" and categorized
with fundamentalist Muslims, not as enemies of
Jewish Zionism, Christian Zionism, dispensationalism,
or the Neocons, but as enemies of mankind itself. For
if a nuclear war happens because of religious strife
in the Middle East, resulting in the death of one-
fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8), the world could
rise up and demand that all religious "chauvinism" be
outlawed, that is, that no religion be allowed to
claim that it's "the only way" (John 14:6, 3:36, Acts
4:12) and that all other religions are evil
(Galatians 1:8-9). The world could say that this
proscription is necessary in order that mankind not
suffer from religious strife in the future, perhaps
resulting in mankind's nuclear extinction.

---

In seal 5 (Revelation 6:9-11), the white robes given
to the souls of the dead martyrs in heaven are
literal; they aren't resurrected immortal bodies. The
church won't be resurrected into immortal bodies
until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-53),
which won't happen until after the entire tribulation
of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31,
Revelation 20:4-6). That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7. When Jesus comes to
gather together the church, he will destroy the
Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

---

The "bridal clothes" of Revelation 19:8 are symbolic
of the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8b),
which they have right now by their faith in Jesus
(Romans 3:22).

---

The second beast (Revelation 13:11) isn't false
religion, or specifically false Christianity, but the
man who will be the False Prophet of the Antichrist
(Revelation 19:20). He won't teach all false religion,
but will ultimately teach the religion of the
Antichrist, which will be gnostic Luciferianism
(1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4).

The False Prophet could start out as the next Pope.
He could make it his sole (preliminary) mission to
unite Christianity and Islam into (what he could
call) "One religion of Abraham, one religion of
peace". He could become so skillful in (what peace-
loving Muslims could call) "The elucidation of the
true, peaceful doctrines of the original Islam"
that they could hail him as "a great Imam". So he
could come to hold positions of power in two
religions at the same time, which could be
symbolized by his "two horns" (Revelation 13:11).

The gnostic Luciferianism which will be taught by the
False Prophet and the Antichrist could be a form of
false Christianity in that they could claim that
Lucifer is Christ, because Lucifer is the morning
star (Isaiah 14:12) and Christ is the morning star
(Revelation 22:16). Of course, the truth is that
Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah
14:12) and became Satan (Luke 10:18). Jesus has
taken over the office of morning star (Revelation
22:16).

But the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny
that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). They will
deny that the Christ has been made flesh (1 John 4:3,
contrast John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39). They could say
that the flesh-man Jesus was just a regular guy who
was only temporarily indwelt by the divine Spirit of
Christ, like a glass being only temporarily indwelt
by the finest wine. But they could claim that just
as the divine Spirit of Christ was worshipped as
God through Jesus (John 20:28), so the divine Spirit
of Christ (which they would claim is Lucifer) must be
worshipped as God through the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4).

---

The darkening of the sun and reddening of the moon
during the tribulation (Revelation 6:12) isn't the
same event as the darkening of both the sun and moon
after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

---

Those who say that the 6th seal of the tribulation is
the great day of God's wrath (Revelation 6:17) could
be just as mistaken as Job was in Job 19:11, thinking
that what was happening to him was God's wrath, when
actually it was Satan's wrath.

The great day of God's wrath, as in the day of the
Lord, won't begin until the second coming
(1 Corinthians 1:7-8), which won't happen until
Revelation 19 (see verse 15 for the wrath), after
the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) of Revelation
chapters 6-18.

Joel 2:31 only says that the darkening of the sun and
reddening of the moon will happen sometime "before"
the day of the Lord. It will happen a few years before,
for after the darkening of the sun and reddening of
the moon at the 6th seal of the tribulation, all of
the subsequent events of the tribulation (Revelation
chapters 7-18) have to occur before the day of the
Lord arrives in Revelation 19.

---

Jesus said that the tribulation includes the
abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet (Matthew 24:15), which is Daniel 11:31,36,
and the same as 2 Thessalonians 2:4, which has
not yet happened, but will happen at the start of
the Antichrist's 42-month tribulation reign over
the earth (Revelation 13:5-8).

Jesus is addressing the same church in Matthew
24:15-20 that's he's addressing in Matthew 24:9. There
are many churches in Judaea today, just as there were
in the first century (Galatians 1:22). And there are
many in the church who are Sabbath-keepers, just as
there were in the first century (Romans 14:5).

---

Ezekiel 14:21 was referring to the destruction of
Jerusalem in the time of Ezekiel (Ezekiel 14:22).
 
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gwynedd1

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The Judeo-Christian concept is a myth. What union is there between faiths that are essentially totally opposed to each other? Jesus and the spiritual kingdom or a warlord and an earthly one? Rabbinic Judaism , which I believe to be a faith, was the main enemy of the Gospel.

1 Thessolonians 2
14For you, brethren, became (AN)imitators of (AO)the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are (AP)in Judea, for (AQ)you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, (AR)even as they did from the Jews, 15(AS)who both killed the Lord Jesus and (AT)the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,





Today there are many forms of Judaism and many are not hostile but many Christians are oblivious to OT interpretations one may take without the light of the Gospels. I have no doubt some of these sects would behead Christians for idolatry. No , certainly not all but consider interpreting the Old Testament without the guidance of a true Messiah.

There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world.

-Suetonius 12 Caesars
 
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Bible2

Guest
The Judeo-Christian concept is scriptural, when we
define the "Judeo" part as the Judaic scriptures,
the Old Testament of the Bible (Acts 26:22-23,
Luke 24:44, 2 Timothy 3:15-17).

---

There can be no union between two different faiths;
there is only one scriptural faith (Ephesians 4:5,
John 3:16,36, 14:6, Acts 4:12).

Any non-scriptural faith which denies that Jesus of
Nazareth is the Christ is an anti-Christian faith
(1 John 2:22).

---

Jesus has a spiritual kingdom now within scriptural
believers (Luke 17:21b, Romans 14:17). And at his
second coming, he will be a warlord (Revelation
19:11-21) and establish an earthly kingdom
(Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28,
Luke 22:30, Zechariah 14:3-21).

---

While unsaved elect Jews are enemies of the gospel
(Romans 11:28), they can still become saved, just as
the elect Jew named Paul the apostle got saved, even
though before his salvation he was a chief enemy of
the gospel (Galatians 1:13-24, 1 Timothy 1:12-16).

At the second coming of Jesus Christ, all of the
unsaved elect Jews who are still alive will become
saved (Romans 11:25-31) when they see Jesus
(Zechariah 12:10-14).

---

Before the second coming of Jesus Christ, the true
Messiah (John 1:41, 4:25-26), the ultra-Orthodox
Jews could be convinced by a deluded miracle-worker
among them that he is the Messiah (cf. Matthew 24:24).
And they could be urged on by this false Messiah that
they need to forget the secular state of Israel and
establish a true Israel based strictly on the Mosaic
law, with a temple and daily animal sacrifices and
everything. And so some zealots among the ultra-
Orthodox Jews could take it upon themselves to blow
up the (Muslim) Dome of the Rock to (as they could
say) "clear the site for Messiah's rebuilding of the
Temple", even though they'll know full well that this
will cause the enraged Muslim nations to start an all-
out war against Israel which will bring about its
defeat and destruction (Daniel 11:15-16).

Forseeing the possibility of such a scenario, no
doubt the Shin Bet has well-placed informants within
the ranks of the ultra-Orthodox Jews, to keep a
lookout for any plans for violence on their part. But
a miracle-working "Messiah" could also have psychic
abilities, so that he will be able to identify and
expel all informants from the midst of his followers.
He could also be smart enough to sweep all of their
meeting places for bugs, and to command them to speak
nothing about plans for violence over any electronic
devices, as they can be easily tapped by the Shin Bet.
He could also be lucky enough to escape or survive
any fatal "accidents" planned for him by the Shin
Bet, once it realizes the mortal danger that he poses
to the secular state of Israel. And so, despite the
best efforts of its domestic security service, Israel
could in the end fail to prevent the blowing up of
the Dome of the Rock by Jewish extremists, and so
fail to forestall the destruction of Israel itself.

But surely Israel could physically guard the Dome
of the Rock with police forces and/or soldiers and/or
undercover agents, so that no Jewish extremists will
be able to place explosives anywhere near it. The
problem is that the Temple Mount, where the Dome of
the Rock is located, is under Islamic control, so
that no Jews are allowed to even set foot on it, much
less Israeli authorities, so they wouldn't be allowed
to set Israeli guards there.

But what if Israel paid Muslims to guard the Dome day
and night. This could work for a while, but the
Jewish extremists could be smart enough to send some
of their Arabic-speakers dressed up as Muslims to
go to the Temple Mount at 3 a.m. and bribe any non-
sleeping Muslim guards with huge sums to "take a short
Turkish-coffee break while we take a look around".
Once the guards are out of sight, the Jewish extremists
could take off backpacks loaded with timed explosives
and hide them within the Dome and be off the Mount
before any explosion occurs.

To get around this problem, all Israel needs to do is
set up (with Muslim permission) 24-hour camera
surveillance in and around the Dome and have a cadre
of Israeli officers watching the screens like hawks
day and night, and have some soldiers ready to stream
onto the Mount to defend the Dome at a moment's notice.

To get around this, the Jewish extremists could avoid
going onto the Mount at all, and instead blow up the
Dome from underneath. This would be possible because
there are tunnels which run beneath the Dome, and
their only entrance is in an Orthodox synagogue off
the north end of the Wailing Wall. The entrances are
blocked by locked wrought-iron gates, but Jewish
extremists could break through the gates and place
explosives under the Dome.

To get around this, Israel could place armed guards
and cameras in the synagogue.

To get around this, the Jewish extremists' "Messiah"
could manage to take control of that synagogue and
command that no one but his faithful followers may
enter into it, and that the Israeli authorities
may not place any cameras inside it.

To get around this, well, Israel couldn't get around
this without starting a head-on conflict between the
state and the ultra-Orthodox Jews. The more Israel
tried to take control of access to the synagogue, the
more it could push the ultra-Orthodox Jews to rebel
against (what they could call) "this vile, godless
state, which would dare countermand our holy Messiah
himself".

So Israel could find itself in a terrible catch-22.
If it doesn't control access to the synagogue,
extremists could go through it to blow up the Dome;
and if Israel does control access to the synagogue,
it could inflame tensions between the state and
the ultra-Orthodox Jews to where an all-out rebellion
could occur.

Imagine if it comes to a showdown between the
"Messiah" and his well-armed followers on the one
hand, and the state and its well-armed IDF soldiers
on the other. Imagine a standoff in the plaza in front
of the Wailing Wall: scores of IDF soldiers with
machine guns block the entrance to the synagogue, while
tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered from
all over Israel, and well-armed with Uzis (ostensibly
for defense against the Palestinians), suddenly swarm
the plaza (and all the rest of the Old City of
Jerusalem) chanting songs and demanding access to the
holy synagogue, if not the Temple Mount itself.

Who will give way first?

Or, who will shoot first?

There doesn't seem to be any possible good ending for
the state of Israel so long as it has within its
borders two armed Jewish groups whose ultimate aims
are diametrically opposed, and so long as it's
surrounded by hostile Arab masses just waiting for
the ultimate motivation to declare all-out jihad for
the total destruction of Israel.

And if Israel is destroyed by civil war and jihad from
without, it's very unlikely that the world will ever
want to restore it, for the world could say "who in
their right mind would want to repeat a failed
experiment which brought nothing but trouble to the
world? Let the Jews live wherever in the world they
please, but why in the world would they want to live
in the one place where they are hated to death, where
they are in the most danger, continually at risk?"

And so the world could let a dead Israel stay dead.

But the ultra-Orthodox Jews will never give up their
dream of Israel, for they see it not as some political
experiment of Holocaust survivors, but as their God-
given and eternal right (Exodus 32:13). And so they
could fight tooth and nail to hold onto the walled
Old City of Jerusalem, and succeed in doing so, while
all the rest of Israel reverts to what could be called
"the Islamic Republic of Palestine".

---
---

A Jew will end up ruling the world, for Jesus is a
Jew (John 4:9,22), and at his second coming he will
rule the world (Psalms 72:8, Zechariah 14:9), upon
the throne of his forefather David the Jew (Luke 1:32,
Isaiah 9:7). And other Jews will rule the world with
Jesus, for the church contains Jews (1 Corinthians
12:13), and the church will rule the world with
Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 5:10, 2:26-29,
20:4-6).
 
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