The Mark of the Beast
- Thread starter Achilles6129
- Start date
It is obviously against God's commandment to be branded as a slave to the beast, which is essentially what the mark of the beast is all about, though no doubt it will be marketed as "freedom." To take the mark of the beast is the equivalent to pledging sincere and heartfelt allegiance to the beast. That is why it is against God's command.
Upvote
0
Manasseh_
not the evil king Manasseh
except for the fact that Revelation says saints from the past got the victory over the beast by not receiving it's mark and history shows that they received no tattoos or any other markings on their body and obviously no form of technology existed then for implants but history does show that when laws and decrees were made against keeping sabbath, many saints had to flee or be martyred because they refused to adhere to these laws of men and kept God's commandments
Upvote
0
It does not say saints from the past got victory over the mark. The saints being spoken of are saints in the future (from the time John is writing).
Upvote
0
Manasseh_
not the evil king Manasseh
right, From the time John wrote down what he saw (about 90AD) we're still looking at nearly 2000 years of history here........the time when the RCC began to rise to power, the Roman Empire became the "Holy" Roman Empire , a church-state system rising together, this "church" influencing" the state..........then the martyrdom of millions through Inquisition for many years..............still no historical documentation that people were marked physically by tattoos or by other marks on their body (brands) and once again no technology for any kinds of "implants" as being the mark
John's vision was of all the saints getting the victory over the beast, some did by not taking the mark, others by not worshiping it's image or taking it's name or the number of it's name or all of these
the beast, it's mark , it's name, number and image did all exist in the past long before our time...............the mark is not something reserved only for the future , it existed in the past and was enforced through laws and decrees...........when the beast is revived (rise from the bottomless pit) again through this church-state alliance it will once again be enforced...............the embodiment of "ANTICHRIST" working directly against God's commandments and thinking it has the power to change times and laws (of God)
Upvote
0
Ahh, I see. We simply disagree about the fulfillment of events in Revelation. I am a futurist; hence I see them as being fulfilled in the future. You believe they were fulfilled (at least in part) in the past.
Upvote
0
Manasseh_
not the evil king Manasseh
this should be obvious, God didn't stop working his plan for nearly 2000 years since John wrote down the Revelation that Christ gave him only to reserve everything in the Revelation for the short time before Christ returns,
John was shown that this beast was (did exist in the past) and is not and at one point would be again (rise from the bottomless pit) in addition to Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 showing that the 4th beast would rise again at the end and be destroyed by Christ at his coming
I'm not seeing these things as being fulfilled in accordance to the Revelation but as forerunners, examples of what will be in the end, just as Antiochus Epiphanes was an example of setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple in the Book of Daniel
God has left us many scriptural and historical examples so the saints will know exactly what to watch for , this also helps in understanding so saints don't have to spend endless amounts of time speculating and guessing who the beast will be, it's mark, it's image, number and name...........who and what the false prophet is and who is Babylon the harlot..............
Upvote
0
Well we just disagree on methods of interpreting Revelation then. I would hardly say that just because the book is futurist that doesn't mean it has been irrelevant for 2000 years - I hold the letters to the 7 churches represent letters to the church universal.
Since we have such a fundamental disagreement about interpretation, it is unlikely we will see eye to eye. I see the saints that get the victory over the mark of the beast to be saints at the end.
Upvote
0
Manasseh_
not the evil king Manasseh
then that would mean John only sees these end times saints stand before God and giving him thanks and praises
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
where are all the other saints ?
Revelation 6 symbolically shows past saints who ask God when they will be avenged and they are told that another martyrdom will take place of their brethren and they were told to rest a little season until this would happen, now after all this Christ promises to return with his reward to give to ALL HIS SAINTS including those that were told to rest a little season
when you limit this as you're doing you are excluding all these other saints from the past who also got the victory over the mark of the beast and you're excluding them as also standing on this "sea of glass" before God giving him praise
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
The saints in Revelation 6 at the 5th seal are saints who were slain either during or just before the onset of the tribulation. They are not the historical saints, as is shown from Rev. 20:4, which is a near-duplicate passage to the 5th seal.
So basically we're not seeing eye to eye because you are taking many of these things as historical. I am seeing them as happening in the future. Even our definitions of things do not agree because of this fundamental difference.
Upvote
0
Manasseh_
not the evil king Manasseh
your premise is excluding past saints again , Rev 20:4 says these saints rule with Christ a thousand years, if this doesn't include saints in the past then you are excluding Christ's own apostles here........that certainly has no scriptural backing, not to mention it excludes all the past prophets and patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Noah, Job, David, Elijah, Enoch just to name a few
your pretrib dispensational doctrine is getting in the way here and causing your misunderstanding of this topic
Upvote
0
Yes, it is specifically referring to those saints who died in the 5th seal. However, the fact is that all the saints have a part in the resurrection and reign of Christ, which is shown by other verses:
"And 2532 I saw 1492 thrones 2362, and 2532 they sat 2523 upon 1909 them 846, and 2532 judgment 2917 was given 1325 unto them..." Rev. 20:4a
Those sitting on the thrones are none other than the 12 apostles (Matthias replacing Judas, of course). Just as Christ promised them earlier:
"28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mt. 19:28
That takes care of the Apostles, and everyone else is mentioned right here:
"Blessed 3107 and 2532 holy 40 [is] he that hath 2192 part 3313 in 1722 the first 4413 resurrection 386: on 1909 such 5130 the second 1208 death 2288 hath 2192 no 3756 power 1849, but 235 they shall be 2071 priests 2409 of God 2316 and 2532 of Christ 5547, and 2532 shall reign 936 with 3326 him 846 a thousand 5507 years 2094. " Rev. 20:6
Those mentioned in 20:4 are indeed the saints mentioned in the 5th seal, which I shall now prove:
"and 2532 [I saw] the souls 5590 of them that were beheaded 3990 for 1223 the witness 3141 of Jesus 2424, and 2532 for 1223 the word 3056 of God 2316, and 2532 which 3748 had 4352 0 not 3756 worshipped 4352 the beast 2342, neither 3777 his 846 image 1504, 2532 neither 3756 had received 2983 [his] mark 5480 upon 1909 their 846 foreheads 3359, or 2532 in 1909 their 846 hands 5495; and 2532 they lived 2198 and 2532 reigned 936 with 3326 Christ 5547 a thousand 5507 years 2094. " Rev. 20:4b-end
Compare with the 5th seal:
"And 2532 when 3753 he had opened 455 the fifth 3991 seal 4973, I saw 1492 under 5270 the altar 2379 the souls 5590 of them that were slain 4969 for 1223 the word 3056 of God 2316, and 2532 for 1223 the testimony 3141 which 3739 they held 2192 : " Rev. 6:9
Compare the like colors. These two passages are clearly talking about the same individuals. They are not all the saints throughout all of history, but are rather those who are specifically killed for refusing the worship of the beast. Rev. 20:4 elaborates and gives more specific information on why the individuals in Rev. 6:9 were killed.
Upvote
0
stevevw
inquisitive
To me its got to be a physical mark. The bible also says just as you can tell when a season is changing so will you be able to know when the end is coming. As we have seen in recent times With the stock market crashes and more recently the GFC. Many countries went close to going bankrupt including America. Greece did go bankrupt and other countries in the EEC were very close like Italy and Spain.
America has put off dealing with the debt ceiling problem by raising it again from 16.7 trillion dollars to 17 trillion. This has put off the problem for now but sooner or later they will have to address that fact that they are in so much debt they will never be able to service it and are virtually going bankrupt. What happens to the US affects the whole world so when that time comes the world will be waiting to see what will happen. When the crisis started America came to a stand still and when they didn't meet the dead line for dealing with it and the country shut down. The stock markets reacted and this started to effect all the world markets.
The modern economies follow this boom bust cycle and this has been happening for many years. Each bust gets bigger and the last one which was around 2007/8 sent the world in turmoil. Since then we have repeated the same mistakes as in the past of unbridled borrowing to feed our desires to have things and fuel growth through borrowed money. So soon it will crash again but this time in a big way.
When Greece went bankrupt people lost everything and many were protesting in the streets. There was no work and no money to buy things. If this happens on a world scale then there will be panic and suddenly trade comes to a halt as countries will be assessing all debt owed and what they will have in the way of food and resources. So this is where people start to panic by and if it gets really bad then shops could start to run out of food and then fuel will start to run out. Any imported good will cease and each country will be looking after themselves.
This is where i can see the leaders of the most powerful economies starting to impliment a world system to ration out things so that we are assured of having enough and keeping the supply going. Because the money system will crash them cash will become irrelevant because many countries will be in so much debt they cannot pay their creditors who will also be wanting their money. So suddenly no one is guaranteed cash anymore and money becomes worthless. Without money there will have to be another way of doing business so that everyone can be fed and have the basics to allow their societies to function.
At the same time many world leader have wanted to bring in a system of identification and registration of everyone so that they can simply the many departments that deal with welfare, taxes, health, travel and security. This will be the catalyst that will start the one world ID system which will also act as a form of purchase. Everyone will be allocated an ID maybe a number like a tax file number but also identifying country and place of birth. Each person maybe allocated a certain amount of buying power each week to get food and basics so that supplies can be controlled and ensuring everyone is taken care of.
So this is how its going to start and it is not to far away. It took about 10 or 12 years from the crash in the 90s to the crash in 2007/8. So its been about 6 years since the last crash so maybe in around about another 5 to 7 years we will see it starting.
I dont know who the anti Christ will be but he is not to far away from revealing himself. But because he will be known as the anti Christ then i would expect he will take on a similar role to what Christ had done when he came. He will come across as the savior of mankind and many will believe him and think he is helping mankind. So he will have to be popular but he doesn't have to be popular or well known now. Because the events that will happen with the market crash being a time of turmoil then it is possible that he could rise from the ashes of this crisis as the great architect or organizer. He could be a world leader or he could be someone like a banker who has so much money owed to them now that they really own much of the world as it is. But he will come out of the turmoil of what is going to happen as this is the best way to gain confidence when in times of trouble and uncertainty.
America has put off dealing with the debt ceiling problem by raising it again from 16.7 trillion dollars to 17 trillion. This has put off the problem for now but sooner or later they will have to address that fact that they are in so much debt they will never be able to service it and are virtually going bankrupt. What happens to the US affects the whole world so when that time comes the world will be waiting to see what will happen. When the crisis started America came to a stand still and when they didn't meet the dead line for dealing with it and the country shut down. The stock markets reacted and this started to effect all the world markets.
The modern economies follow this boom bust cycle and this has been happening for many years. Each bust gets bigger and the last one which was around 2007/8 sent the world in turmoil. Since then we have repeated the same mistakes as in the past of unbridled borrowing to feed our desires to have things and fuel growth through borrowed money. So soon it will crash again but this time in a big way.
When Greece went bankrupt people lost everything and many were protesting in the streets. There was no work and no money to buy things. If this happens on a world scale then there will be panic and suddenly trade comes to a halt as countries will be assessing all debt owed and what they will have in the way of food and resources. So this is where people start to panic by and if it gets really bad then shops could start to run out of food and then fuel will start to run out. Any imported good will cease and each country will be looking after themselves.
This is where i can see the leaders of the most powerful economies starting to impliment a world system to ration out things so that we are assured of having enough and keeping the supply going. Because the money system will crash them cash will become irrelevant because many countries will be in so much debt they cannot pay their creditors who will also be wanting their money. So suddenly no one is guaranteed cash anymore and money becomes worthless. Without money there will have to be another way of doing business so that everyone can be fed and have the basics to allow their societies to function.
At the same time many world leader have wanted to bring in a system of identification and registration of everyone so that they can simply the many departments that deal with welfare, taxes, health, travel and security. This will be the catalyst that will start the one world ID system which will also act as a form of purchase. Everyone will be allocated an ID maybe a number like a tax file number but also identifying country and place of birth. Each person maybe allocated a certain amount of buying power each week to get food and basics so that supplies can be controlled and ensuring everyone is taken care of.
So this is how its going to start and it is not to far away. It took about 10 or 12 years from the crash in the 90s to the crash in 2007/8. So its been about 6 years since the last crash so maybe in around about another 5 to 7 years we will see it starting.
I dont know who the anti Christ will be but he is not to far away from revealing himself. But because he will be known as the anti Christ then i would expect he will take on a similar role to what Christ had done when he came. He will come across as the savior of mankind and many will believe him and think he is helping mankind. So he will have to be popular but he doesn't have to be popular or well known now. Because the events that will happen with the market crash being a time of turmoil then it is possible that he could rise from the ashes of this crisis as the great architect or organizer. He could be a world leader or he could be someone like a banker who has so much money owed to them now that they really own much of the world as it is. But he will come out of the turmoil of what is going to happen as this is the best way to gain confidence when in times of trouble and uncertainty.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
B
Bible2
Guest
The Antichrist could force everyone to receive an injected RFID microchip, which could be used as both an identification device and a debit card. But the microchip would be separate from the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 16:2, Revelation 13:16-18). For the latter will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation, even one without electricity, whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16 one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark.
The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.
The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.
Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).
In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)
Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.
In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?
The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.
Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.
The Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.
Upvote
0
stevevw
inquisitive
This would make sense because if he is going to have people beheaded and do great signs then being made know before all this will be to obvious for many and he will be regarded as suspicious. But once the turmoil has strted then it will be more known that the end is coming. Non believers will not know this as they do not see these things and will be swayed by the events that will happen here on earth. That being Satan's trickery that he is a man of peace and only wants to help bring peace and stability.
But if the signs that the world is heading for a united money system and the possible tension of a war in the middle east getting closer then maybe it will be sooner than many think.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
