The Mark of the Beast vs the Mark of God (animated video)

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi all. Here's another video (this one animated, yay!). It's approximately 9 minutes. The video explores the relationship between the Mark of the Beast and the Mark of God (specifically what makes them different). I look forward to hearing what others have to say.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I would agree with the concepts about the fulfilling of the sabbath in Christ, but disagree on what work is being condemned. That it's not working for money, but working for salvation. The rest that Jesus gave was rest from works, to have us resting in Him for our salvation, justification, sanctification: 1 Corinthians 1:30. Now we are justified through faith in His work, and not ours: Romans 4:6-8, Romans 4:1-3, Philippians 3:3.

So the seal of God in in the forehead: faith through belief: while the mark of the best is in both the forehead and the right hand: faith through belief, adding to it works of the flesh: that is, "obedience to rule-keeping" in an attempt to work your way into heaven by your own hand. To believe your own works somehow justify you, or, sanctify you, or, impress God. But all "rule-keeping" actually does is condemn you before God as a "rule-breaker": so when we "work" by "rule-keeping" in the "letter of the law" we are found accused by the "rules" because the curse of the rules is upon all who break even one of them: James 2:10, Galatians 3:10

So "rule-keeping" is the cause of "works of the flesh" (Galatians 5:19-21) while "faith" is the cause of "fruits of the spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23): "rule-keeping" puts the glory on the would-be rule-keeper so he can boast in his rule-keeping; but "faith-keeping" puts the glory of "fruits of the spirit" on God. In other words, a "rule-keeper" can boast "I am good because I keep the rules" while a "faith-keeper" can't boast but in Christ "I do nothing, but my "fruits" are the work of Christ in me": the former boasts in himself, the latter in Christ: Ephesians 2:9, Psalms 44:8

Then since we are to cease from our own works as God did from His (Hebrews 4:10), any man who works his own works in Christ is guilty of breaking and profaning the sabbath in Christ. This Paul is always admonishing: Galatians 5:1-3 (now, circumcision of the flesh is the first step toward works of the flesh, by which a man seeks his own righteousness and sanctification through his own works of the flesh; but ends up bring upon him the curse of "rule-breaking" since he cannot be a "rule-keeper" but only a "rule-breaker" in the eyes of the law; and as such is accused of the law and so: Galatians 5:4-6)

This is why those with the mark of the beast go into fire and wrath: John 5:45, Romans 4:15, Revelation 15:1, Galatians 3:10, Matthew 25:41, Galatians 1:6, Revelation 20:15

Now, I agree one cannot serve both God and money, but it is the "love" of money over God that is a problem, and not money itself. Even Jesus endorsed working for money when He said: Luke 3:14

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Now, I agree one cannot serve both God and money, but it is the "love" of money over God that is a problem, and not money itself.

Hi JH. What do you think it means to love money, or to serve money? Most people will say those things aren't good, but it's rare to find anyone with any idea as to what those things mean in practical life.

Even Jesus endorsed working for money when He said: Luke 3:14

No, that was John the Baptist. He was still part of the OT. Jesus kicked off the NT and he said we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other.

The Mark of the Beast prophecy is a confirmation of this principle; we cannot buy or sell without taking the Beast's Mark.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Hi JH. What do you think it means to love money, or to serve money? Most people will say those things aren't good, but it's rare to find anyone with any idea as to what those things mean in practical life.

Meaning you're willing to hurt other people to get it. Your love of money being greater than your love of God and neighbor.

But my main point is on "works" as this is the thrust of even your own point of view: some kind of "working" is being condemned. All through the NT there is only one form of "working" that is expressly and continually condemned as causing wrath, ruin, condemnation, destruction: and it is "works of the law/flesh": so if the mark has anything to do with "working" it has to do with the specific "working" cited time and again as "working death" and it is works of the law, confidence in ones own works for justification/sanctification/redemption: and this is the "other gospel" Paul is always warning was bring people back into "bondage" and causing them to become "cursed" with wrath, destruction and death.

There is nothing whatsoever in scripture expressly condemning working for wages that provide means of living. So if the mark is about "works" (I believe it is) then scripture gives ample clear definition of exactly which "works" are causing Christians to become "cursed children" and "fall from grace"; and virtually no indication of any other type of "abominable works" other than "works of the law/flesh": remember, the "devil" is an "accuser": Revelation 12:10 and Jesus said: John 5:45

No, that was John the Baptist. He was still part of the OT. Jesus kicked off the NT and he said we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other.

True, and I'll concede that Jesus could have a differing doctrine concerning being content with wages; but again, the point is the condemnation of "working" in the law is clear as can be in the NT. "Working" for wages is not; John certainly doesn't condemn it, and neither does Jesus; Jesus does condemn loving money more than loving God, but that is a far cry from supporting "working for wages is the mark of the beast"

we cannot buy or sell without taking the Beast's Mark.

That's true but it's a question of, what is being bought and sold?

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

So we may be talking about a different kind of "buying and selling" than the earthly sort. Jesus had ample opportunity to denounce buying and selling; but He only did so one time:

Mr 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple

When it was being done in the temple of God, of which the apostle writes:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi JH,

Meaning you're willing to hurt other people to get it. Your love of money being greater than your love of God and neighbor.

"Hurt" can be a pretty subjective term. In a world where resources are finite, hurt can be as simple as leaving less for others by taking what we want. Banks who offer loans to people and then repossess houses when the loan can't be repaid are just ordinary people trying to make a profit, and yet people are hurt in the process.

some kind of "working" is being condemned.

Not some kind. A very specific kind; work for material gain.

There is nothing whatsoever in scripture expressly condemning working for wages that provide means of living.

Sure there is. Matthew 6:24-34 . John 6:27. And Matthew 10:8. The other point is that wages don't provide life. God does. It's similar to "earning a living". What? Since when do we need to work for money to earn the right to live?

Why not work for each other? Money doesn't create or build anything. It doesn't make the rain fall, it doesn't make the sun shine, and it doesn't make plants or animals grow. It doesn't do anything. We don't need it.

So if the mark is about "works"

It's about buying and selling. That's what the prophecy says.

I'll concede that Jesus could have a differing doctrine concerning being content with wages;

It's not really a mystery. It's just a matter of looking at what he taught. God or money. Can't work for both without cheating one or the other. I mean, it's not that hard. Just think about how the system actually works.

If you want my help, you must pay me. That's the monetary system. It just doesn't jive with the idea of helping one another out of love.

Jesus does condemn loving money more than loving God

Sorry, but I don't see this kind of thing anywhere in Jesus' teachings. There's nothing there about loving God more than money, because there should be no love of money whatsoever, even if it is "less" love than what we have for God.

Jesus went the other way. He said we will despise one and love the other; God or money.

So we may be talking about a different kind of "buying and selling" than the earthly sort.

I think it's good to keep an open mind and to be flexible, but this theory of a spiritualized buying/selling doesn't make sense in the context of the prophecy.

Over in Revelation 18, in the description of Babylon, there is reference to the souls of men being bought as merchandise. The context supports a spiritualized understanding of the reference, that there is not a literal shelf full of jars with each one holding a literal soul.

The Mark prophecy is different in context. For a world dependent on buying and selling, doesn't it make sense that buying/selling will make a fantastic tool for manipulating the people of the world?

The love of money is believing we can't live without it.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Sure there is. Matthew 6:24-34 . John 6:27. And Matthew 10:8.

I agree those three verses exist; I was talking about the specific word "works": which is in none of those verses. The point being that scripture does strongly condemn "working/works" over and again. But not "works for wages" but "works of the law/flesh": so if the mark is about something "worked" I'm going to conclude that it's the same "works" that are actually condemned over and again.

It's about buying and selling. That's what the prophecy says.

We both agree the prophecy is about buying and selling; but of what type? Literal or spiritual? It could be either.

It's not really a mystery. It's just a matter of looking at what he taught. God or money. Can't work for both without cheating one or the other. I mean, it's not that hard. Just think about how the system actually works.

Yet Jesus also said that, whoever loves parents more than Him is no worthy of Him. Does that mean people who take care of their parents aren't worthy of Him? You can operate in a system (familial or economic) without loving that system more than God. Again, I do agree that love of money is not a good thing. But for most, working for wages isn't love of money, or, serving money; it is something that is performed out of love of family.

If you want my help, you must pay me. That's the monetary system. It just doesn't jive with the idea of helping one another out of love.

I don't agree with the negative statement. Most people will help someone without asking for money. But if you want goods they have obtained, they'll want something in exchange. I don't see this as unreasonable. Also just because we don't like something, doesn't suddenly make that thing what the scripture is referencing. Again, the only type of "working" ever specifically condemned in scripture is "works of the law/flesh" (note, it's actually "jibe"; "doesn't jibe")

Sorry, but I don't see this kind of thing anywhere in Jesus' teachings. There's nothing there about loving God more than money, because there should be no love of money whatsoever, even if it is "less" love than what we have for God.

Which is why I said Jesus does condemn loving money more than loving God: to love money more than God means you love money, which is condemned.

Jesus went the other way. He said we will despise one and love the other; God or money.

"Despise" in the passages means "not esteeming": a person who makes "god" of money "highly esteems" money, and loves money. This is condemned. Working for food doesn't mean a man "loves food more than God" or that He "despises God" because he is working for food.

I think it's good to keep an open mind and to be flexible, but this theory of a spiritualized buying/selling doesn't make sense in the context of the prophecy.

The context of the prophecy is apocalyptic literature. Notabley highly symbolic.

Over in Revelation 18, in the description of Babylon, there is reference to the souls of men being bought as merchandise. The context supports a spiritualized understanding of the reference, that there is not a literal shelf full of jars with each one holding a literal soul.

Right; and this is spoken elsewhere: 2 Peter 2:1-3. Note Peter is speaking of "false prophets" and "false teachers", the Revelation is speaking of "false prophets"; Peter is speaking of "denying the Lord that bought them", the Revelation speaks of "buying and selling souls"; Peter speaks of these "making merchandise of men", Revelation speaks of "buying merchandise": it's a specific parallel; and supports the spiritual understanding of the "buying and selling" of souls with "damnable heresies" and "feigned words"

The Mark prophecy is different in context. For a world dependent on buying and selling, doesn't it make sense that buying/selling will make a fantastic tool for manipulating the people of the world?

Perhaps, but that idea doesn't suddenly become what the scripture is referencing just because we think it would be a "fantastic tool": in fact I believe corruption of the scripture would make an even more fantastic tool for manipulating the people of the world.

The love of money is believing we can't live without it.

Can you support this with scripture.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I agree those three verses exist;

Yeah, and they have a meaning, too!

The point being that scripture does strongly condemn "working/works" over and again. But not "works for wages" but "works of the law/flesh": so if the mark is about something "worked" I'm going to conclude that it's the same "works" that are actually condemned over and again.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to clarify; which condemned works are you referring to?

And, Why isn't working for money condemned when all these other mysterious works are? What's the difference between them?

We both agree the prophecy is about buying and selling; but of what type? Literal or spiritual? It could be either.

World banking is moving closer and closer to microchip implants in the hand as the next new thing. Are you still thinking that's just coincidence?

Yet Jesus also said that, whoever loves parents more than Him is no worthy of Him. Does that mean people who take care of their parents aren't worthy of Him?

No, but it does mean that people who allow familial relationships to stop them from following God aren't worthy of him. I've seen it happen.

Again, I do agree that love of money is not a good thing.

You mean "is the root of all evil"? Don't be afraid of it, JH.

But for most, working for wages isn't love of money, or, serving money; it is something that is performed out of love of family.

That's interesting. Jesus compared the motivation to fear. I suppose your interpretation still fits, though; many people work for money because they're afraid of not being able to feed their family if they don't.

Fear and greed often work hand in hand, but they can be separate motives, too.

Most people will help someone without asking for money.

That's true, but is that really the kind of love Jesus was teaching? A few favors here and there so long as they don't cost too much?

But if you want goods they have obtained, they'll want something in exchange. I don't see this as unreasonable.

It's good to respect one another and to care about one anothers needs. The kind of Kingdom Jesus promoted is based on wisdom and understanding, too. Just because someone offers me something doesn't mean I should take it, and just because someone needs something doesn't mean I should give it.

Wise sharing is an important part of the kingdom of Heaven, but we'll never get practice at it if we keep leaning on the worldly system of wages.

(note, it's actually "jibe"; "doesn't jibe")

Yeah, but in the UK it's commonly accepted. And besides, my usage still fits the context; your moves ain't jive'n with mine!

to love money more than God means you love money, which is condemned.

But to love money a little bit is okay? Where do you draw the line between the amount of love which is acceptable, and the amount of love which is not acceptable?

"Despise" in the passages means "not esteeming": a person who makes "god" of money "highly esteems" money, and loves money. This is condemned. Working for food doesn't mean a man "loves food more than God" or that He "despises God" because he is working for food.

Haha JH, you look like you're performing a floor exercise.

It looks like you're trying preeeeetty darn hard to minimize the salt in Jesus' words. Here's the verse:

MT 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

He says we'll hate one and love the other. That's pretty clear.

Think about the pattern so far, JH. The first sentence expresses the teaching as it's found in the Bible. The second sentence is your interpretation of it.

"The love of money is the root of all evil" vs "The love of money is not a good thing". Minimized.

"You will hold to one and despise the other" vs. "You will hold to one and not esteem the other" - minimized.

"You will hate one and love the other" vs "You will love one less than the other" - minimized.

Why are you doing that? Think about it...

The context of the prophecy is apocalyptic literature. Notabley highly symbolic.

No, JH. The opening sentence tells us what the context of the prophecy is. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants"

All the prophecy in the Revelation is for the purpose of revealing more about Jesus and it is for his servants. That's partly what is so fascinating about the Mark. It's not an isolated issue. Jesus said heaps about our relationship to money and the things money can buy. The Mark doesn't suddenly make working for money wrong. The Mark is just the last warning on the issue. It is a miracle in that something predicted 2000 years ago is starting to actually happen before our eyes.

The Mark reveals that everything Jesus said about money and living by faith was right and true. The Beast will try to turn us away from God by manipulating our greed and fear (i.e. if you want to put food on the table you must follow the Beast's system to do it).

 

[John Hyperspace]

Maybe it would be helpful for you to clarify; which condemned works are you referring to?

Works of the law; a man attempting to be "justified by works of the law": the same works of the law Paul is constantly condemning. The only works that are being constantly condemned as causing "fall from grace"

And, Why isn't working for money condemned when all these other mysterious works are? What's the difference between them?

One is an attempt at self-justification, the other isn't.

World banking is moving closer and closer to microchip implants in the hand as the next new thing. Are you still thinking that's just coincidence?

I don't think it is a coincidence, no. I don't believe in coincidences.

But to love money a little bit is okay? Where do you draw the line between the amount of love which is acceptable, and the amount of love which is not acceptable?

No, not even to love is a little bit. I would propose that Christians who use money don't love it at all. Just as a Christian who uses gardening tools doesn't love his tools, but merely uses them as tools.

MT 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

He says we'll hate one and love the other. That's pretty clear.

Think about the pattern so far, JH. The first sentence expresses the teaching as it's found in the Bible. The second sentence is your interpretation of it.

No, the first is the Greek translated into English; the second is my comment on the loss of translation from Greek to English.

"You will hate one and love the other" vs "You will love one less than the other" - minimized.

Jesus also said we must hate our parents in the English translation: Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Do you teach others to hate their father, mother, wife and children? Or do you address the loss of translation from Greek to English, and the "minimalizing" (your words) of the passage?

No, JH.

Yes, it is highly symbolic.

It is a miracle in that something predicted 2000 years ago is starting to actually happen before our eyes.

There is something certainly happening before our eyes. But is it the fulfillment of prophecy? Or, something being used to fool people who 'walk by sight' into believing a lie?

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I would propose that Christians who use money don't love it at all.

But why would you even suggest proposing such an unknowable conclusion? I could understand if you were to say, "I don't have a problem with money loving", but how can you possibly make that claim on behalf of all Christians?

Protesting too much?

 

[John Hyperspace]

But why would you even suggest proposing such an unknowable conclusion? I could understand if you were to say, "I don't have a problem with money loving", but how can you possibly make that claim on behalf of all Christians?

Protesting too much?

I suppose my proposition is made in compassion; always giving others the benefit of presuming innocence until proven guilty. Would you propose by operating in the reverse fashion?

But I think the real problem with your proposition is that, you're proposing at the heart of your idea, a "moneyless" system, true? Since a "mark" isn't money at all, is it? Thus your proposed "mark" would in fact render love of money obsolete, yes? People would be guilty then not of love of money, but "love of food, shelter, etc." and now we're at a point where everyone who owns material objects are condemned. Do you love food, shelter, etc?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I suppose my proposition is made in compassion; always giving others the benefit of presuming innocence until proven guilty. Would you propose by operating in the reverse fashion?

So, you're visiting with your Christians friends or attending various church functions; how do you prove someone guilty of money-loving?

Since a "mark" isn't money at all, is it?

The Mark of the Beast will be the next iteration of money; that's why the prophecy makes it clear that one won't be able to buy or sell without it. At one point money took the form of coins. Then paper. Then plastic cards. Phones. Computers. Chips of all various kinds.

People would be guilty then not of love of money, but "love of food, shelter, etc."

Yes, which is why Jesus used a word like "mammon" which means money and the things money can buy. It's also why he followed that up with his commands that we should consider the birds and flowers; they don't work for food and clothing, and yet God cares for them. In another place he plainly told the people not to work even for a basic necessity like food. Instead their motivation should be God.

and now we're at a point where everyone who owns material objects are condemned.

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. The point is to apply his teachings, not argue against them.

 

[John Hyperspace]

So, you're visiting with your Christians friends or attending various church functions; how do you prove someone guilty of money-loving?

I can't, can you? If a person has $100 in their wallet, are you saying the love money? Are you saying that a person that has a penny in their pocket is guilty of loving money? A person with a credit card is guilty of loving money by virtue of actually owning the card? A person with a chip is guilty of loving money by virtue of a chip?

The Mark of the Beast will be the next iteration of money;

By your interpretation; which may or may not be correct.

At one point money took the form of coins. Then paper. Then plastic cards. Phones. Computers. Chips of all various kinds.

You left out "barter" which was also a form of currency. Which means all objects that you own are a form of tradable currency. Which means you love money, and despise God? Or, does it simply mean you own objects that can be used for barter? I mean, if all forms of currency from coins to chips count as "money" so does barter, because it's tradable currency; just not backed by a government treasury.

Yes, which is why Jesus used a word like "mammon" which means money and the things money can buy. It's also why he followed that up with his commands that we should consider the birds and flowers; they don't work for food and clothing, and yet God cares for them. In another place he plainly told the people not to work even for a basic necessity like food. Instead their motivation should be God.

There's a big step between "don't worry about the future, God will take care of you" and "you're condemned for worrying about the future"; there's a cosmic step between "don't worry about the future" and "computer chip is the mark of the beast"

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Oh, so then it looks like Christians have nothing to "worry about" by getting a chip? The only ones who it actually matters to, are the ones who aren't Christian and are condemned already, without a chip? So, the chip does nothing, actually.

The point is to apply his teachings, not argue against them.

Sure; which is summarily, to love the neighbor as the self. Nothing about "money is the mark of the beast"

 

[ver 2-10]

That idea of money is bad, and work only for God, is a really bad idea, and reminds me of communism, where hard work isn't rewarded, thus no one likes to work hard, but are paid anyways even if they only does half the required tasks and does a sloppy job.

It simply doesn't work in these modern times.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

That idea of money is bad, and work only for God, is a really bad idea, and reminds me of communism, where hard work isn't rewarded, thus no one likes to work hard, but are paid anyways even if they only does half the required tasks and does a sloppy job.

It simply doesn't work in these modern times.

If people are working for love, then there is no reason to be lazy because working for love means doing what you do because you want to.

 

[ver 2-10]

If people are working for love, then there is no reason to be lazy because working for love means doing what you do because you want to.

Yes, but that's purely utopian.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Yes, but that's purely utopian.

You mean like, a fantasy? The definition of the word suggests an "imagined place where everything is perfect". I don't think "working for love" is a fantasy. It really can work, if people choose to make it work.

Imagine trying to explain to God that you thought helping one another just because you wanted to (i.e. love) was only a fantasy idea, and that instead you believed that there was a genuine need to force payment from others in order to survive.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

there's a cosmic step between "don't worry about the future" and "computer chip is the mark of the beast"

I don't see it that way. "Don't let worry about material things stop you from working for God's kingdom of love as your top priority". That is the essence of all that teaching about not being fearful for things like food and clothing.

Compare that to a "mark" without which we cannot get the material things we need/want". The similarity isn't cosmic at all; it's striking.

This is the point where evidence becomes incidental and personal conviction becomes key. How we choose to see the evidence is what really counts at this point. Or, as the saying goes, "it's hard to convince a man to see the truth when his paycheck depends on him not seeing it".