The man has to lead

[Zoii]

What do you think about the whole idea that it must be a man that leads the woman. How important is that to you? Or is it just an outdated idea.

 

[Joy]

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[FatalFantasy]

What do you think about the whole idea that it must be a man that leads the woman. How important is that to you? Or is it just an outdated idea.

Lead in which way?

 

[Zoii]

Lead in which way?

I refer to biblical verses that infer headship - that is, Leading within marriage; leading within formal religious settings, particularly within the clergy. Some would also argue that a woman should not lead a man within wider circles inclusive of secular sections of society.

While I appreciate the question, the thread is aimed at teens, which is the reason why it is in a teens only area.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

What do you think about the whole idea that it must be a man that leads the woman. How important is that to you? Or is it just an outdated idea.

I was raised attending churches where there are wonderfully knowledgeable female ministers using their God-given talents to cultivate faith and lead congregants, with parents who are co-leaders, and went to a Christian school for girls headed by admirable women. I actually wasn't aware that it was considered to be controversial for women to be pastors until I joined this forum, and had a vastly different understanding of what leadership and submission in a loving, respectful relationship entails. We studied the word submission, which was first recorded in English in the 1500s, and how it contrasts to the original translations of scripture.

I think leadership should be based on context rather than gender in all professional settings. The one with the expertise and the necessary interrelation skills is the more ideal leader.

In a relationship, I believe both should have areas where they lead, and where they defer. They should be amenable, willing to submit at times out of harmony and respect.

Have you ever read Rachel Held Evans? She's written some insightful posts about relationship roles.
Submission in Context: Christ and the Greco-Roman Household Codes
It’s not complementarianism; it’s patriarchy

 

[Zoii]

I was raised attending churches where there are wonderfully knowledgeable female ministers using their God-given talents to cultivate faith and lead congregants, with parents who are co-leaders, and went to a Christian school for girls headed by admirable women. I actually wasn't aware that it was considered to be controversial for women to be pastors until I joined this forum, and had a vastly different understanding of what leadership and submission in a loving, respectful relationship entails. We studied the word submission, which was first recorded in English in the 1500s, and how it contrasts to the original translations of scripture.

I think leadership should be based on context rather than gender in all professional settings. The one with the expertise and the necessary interrelation skills is the more ideal leader.

In a relationship, I believe both should have areas where they lead, and where they defer. They should be amenable, willing to submit at times out of harmony and respect.

Have you ever read Rachel Held Evans? She's written some insightful posts about relationship roles.
Submission in Context: Christ and the Greco-Roman Household Codes
It’s not complementarianism; it’s patriarchy

Hey Ella
I hope your studies are going well. I agree with your thoughts - that is, I dont regard leadership, within any context, as being gender specific. Rather it should be based on personal intrinsic capacities and skills within specific contexts.

There is an abundance of comment here - I guess mainly from men - who cite quotations from Paul. Those verses are used as some type of weapon to argue the submission and sub-ordinance of women. I can't see in their discussions an argument outside of - 'This is what Paul says and this is how it should be interpreted'.

Why have you and I witnessed that mostly here. Is it a symptom of greater fundamentalism within this site? Is the more paternalistic [even misogynistic] view simply a reflection of fundamentalism? Do you think we do not see it so much in our countries because we attend university, and our critical thinking is more open to new ideas?

 

[Ecclesiastian]

Depends on what you mean. In the church the man must lead in accordance with 1 Timothy 2:11-13.

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;

In the household I think the man should be the head in regards to religious matters but in regards to family matters the man and woman should rule equally, neither one ruling over the other. I recommend Matthew Henry's commentary on the creation of man and woman, his analogy is beautiful.

 

[Zoii]

So why do you think a man has to lead in religious matters?

 

[Ecclesiastian]

For the same reason I believe in male clergy, the verse I cited. To me it doesn't seem like it can be interpreted any other way than as setting males as the religious authority in the majority of circumstances. I don't mean women can't learn for themselves the things of God or anything, just that if anyone's outright teaching the Scriptures it should be a male if possible. But the Bible clearly commands that man and woman be an equal, mutually affectionate, singular flesh in regards to marriage and the family. So I don't see a precedent for male authority in regards to religious affairs needing to cross over into the position of man and woman in other contexts.

 

[Zoii]

For the same reason I believe in male clergy, the verse I cited. To me it doesn't seem like it can be interpreted any other way than as setting males as the religious authority in the majority of circumstances. I don't mean women can't learn for themselves the things of God or anything, just that if anyone's outright teaching the Scriptures it should be a male if possible. But the Bible clearly commands that man and woman be an equal, mutually affectionate, singular flesh in regards to marriage and the family. So I don't see a precedent for male authority in regards to religious affairs needing to cross over into the position of man and woman in other contexts.

No this isnt what I ask
Your answer is stating what St Paul says or referring to a verse from Timothy

I asked why its YOUR view that women may not lead - NOT simply - well this is what I thought St Paul means... why do YOU think a woman cannot lead within marriage, religion or commerce.... Im interested in your opinion not someone else's from 2000 years ago.

And when you reply, describe what it is you believe about women that makes them totally incapable in your opinion - Its good for the teenage females here to understand what teen guys are saying about them.

 

[Justasurvivor]

there is just too many what ifs in this scenario not to mention complicated

 

[Zoii]

there is just too many what ifs in this scenario not to mention complicated

So what are you saying - men DONT need to lead - That its dependent on the capacity of the individual? - Or are you saying in marriage its a sharing of duties - no absolute leader

 

[Justasurvivor]

well have you seen many men that can lead look at this generation there is alot of men questioning their own gender and alot of them only stand up for themselves not for others so you tell me

and yes some I'm saying it depends on the capacity of the individual

 

[Ecclesiastian]

No this isnt what I ask
Your answer is stating what St Paul says or referring to a verse from Timothy

I asked why its YOUR view that women may not lead - NOT simply - well this is what I thought St Paul means... why do YOU think a woman cannot lead within marriage, religion or commerce.... Im interested in your opinion not someone else's from 2000 years ago.

And when you reply, describe what it is you believe about women that makes them totally incapable in your opinion - Its good for the teenage females here to understand what teen guys are saying about them.

I don't have a personal opinion on the matter of clergy and I don't really think anyone has a right to a personal opinion on such a matter. And I specifically said men and women should be completely equal outside of religious matters. I have never said I see women as incapable. I merely reserve the position of pastor or teacher in a church to men, because Christian churches should adhere to the regulations of the Christian Bible.

I don't plan to rule over my girlfriend or wife in the future and don't believe that's what one is supposed to do, if that's what you're thinking.

 

[St. Helens]

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[Zoii]

I don't have a personal opinion on the matter of clergy and I don't really think anyone has a right to a personal opinion on such a matter. And I specifically said men and women should be completely equal outside of religious matters. I have never said I see women as incapable. I merely reserve the position of pastor or teacher in a church to men, because Christian churches should adhere to the regulations of the Christian Bible.

I don't plan to rule over my girlfriend or wife in the future and don't believe that's what one is supposed to do, if that's what you're thinking.

Hi
I should have been more clear - Im not attacking your position just guiding you to spell out why you believe what you believe.

So are you saying you haven't thought out the notion of why it is that having a penis makes a more capable religious pastor/priest - in favour of instead relinquishing a view on the matter to simply obeying an interpretation of some verses in the bible

And given the now known historical prevalence of child sexual abuse and nun abuse - is it time to review that religious position? I mean - There's no way I wanna follow the mistakes and faults of my grandparents - what do you think.

Again - this isn't an attack - I want to understand why guys think what they think about women in religion.