The Making of a Covenant in Dan.9:27

[Quasar92]

Then why did you wait until now to correct me, if you knew you never made the claim? I could have sworn you did end the post with your name and PhD, but maybe I was mistaken. To err is human, my apologies.

After I went thru all the trouble to explain Dan 9:26, this is what you're coming back with, an essay contest? What? You can't address the facts? Figures!

I did explain everything in the last post. What is this, an attempt to save face?

You can write an essay, but you don't know what an appositive clause is? I don't think so. This is case in point.

Case in point, the stone the builders refuse.

Here's a nugget: The abomination of desolation was the forsaking of the old covenant.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

- The end of what war?

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

- Who's the "prince of the covenant"? and two" floods"?

Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

- Which "holy" covenant will this "he" be against? And I hope you take the time out to answer specifically this question, because it refutes you claim of there being a future covenant.

The seven year covenant he will confirm in Dan.9:27, is a binding agreement that will be made between Israel and her Islamic neighbors. It has nothing whatever to do with the eternal New Covenant Jesus brought into existence when He shed His blood and died on a cross. As was previously addressed by Dr. Ice.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Antiochus Epiphanes also commanded that the Jews stop animal sacrifices and this was done for over 3 years. He also commanded that children not be circumcised.
The Jews of Jerusalem were forced at the point of the sword to abandon the Old Covenant system for about 3-1/2 years.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing of the temple and the renewal of animal sacrifices.
(John 10:22)

These facts can be found in the writings of the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus.

from Wars of the Jews

"Book 1, Chapter 1

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES, TO THE DEATH OF HEROD THE GREAT.
HOW THE CITY JERUSALEM WAS TAKEN, AND THE TEMPLE PILLAGED [BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES]. AS ALSO CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE MACCABEES, MATTHIAS AND JUDAS; AND CONCERNING THE DEATH OF JUDAS.
1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple (1) concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter.

2. Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine’s flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death. Bacchides also, who was sent to keep the fortresses, having these wicked commands, joined to his own natural barbarity, indulged all sorts of the extremest wickedness, and tormented the worthiest of the inhabitants, man by man, and threatened their city every day with open destruction, till at length he provoked the poor sufferers by the extremity of his wicked doings to avenge themselves.
3. Accordingly Matthias, the son of Asamoneus, one of the priests who lived in a village called Modin, armed himself, together with his own family, which had five sons of his in it, and slew Bacchides with daggers; and thereupon, out of the fear of the many garrisons [of the enemy], he fled to the mountains; and so many of the people followed him, that he was encouraged to come down from the mountains, and to give battle to Antiochus’s generals, when he beat them, and drove them out of Judea. So he came to the government by this his success, and became the prince of his own people by their own free consent, and then died, leaving the government to Judas, his eldest son.
4. Now Judas, supposing that Antiochus would not lie still, gathered an army out of his own countrymen, and was the first that made a league of friendship with the Romans, and drove Epiphanes out of the country when he had made a second expedition into it, and this by giving him a great defeat there; and when he was warmed by this great success, he made an assault upon the garrison that was in the city, for it had not been cut off hitherto; so he ejected them out of the upper city, and drove the soldiers into the lower, which part of the city was called the Citadel. He then got the temple under his power, and cleansed the whole place, and walled it round about, and made new vessels for sacred ministrations, and brought them into the temple, because the former vessels had been profaned. He also built another altar, and began to offer the sacrifices; and when the city had already received its sacred constitution again, Antiochus died; whose son Antiochus succeeded him in the kingdom, and in his hatred to the Jews also.
5. So this Antiochus got together fifty thousand footmen, and five thousand horsemen, and fourscore elephants, and marched through Judea into the mountainous parts. He then took Bethsura, which was a small city; but at a place called Bethzacharis, where the passage was narrow, Judas met him with his army. However, before the forces joined battle, Judas’s brother Eleazar, seeing the very highest of the elephants adorned with a large tower, and with military trappings of gold to guard him, and supposing that Antiochus himself was upon him, he ran a great way before his own army, and cutting his way through the enemy’s troops, he got up to the elephant; yet could he not reach him who seemed to be the king, by reason of his being so high; but still he ran his weapon into the belly of the beast, and brought him down upon himself, and was crushed to death, having done no more than attempted great things, and showed that he preferred glory before life. Now he that governed the elephant was but a private man; and had he proved to be Antiochus, Eleazar had performed nothing more by this bold stroke than that it might appear he chose to die, when he had the bare hope of thereby doing a glorious action; nay, this disappointment proved an omen to his brother [Judas] how the entire battle would end. It is true that the Jews fought it out bravely for a long time, but the king’s forces, being superior in number, and having fortune on their side, obtained the victory. And when a great many of his men were slain, Judas took the rest with him, and fled to the toparchy of Gophna. So Antiochus went to Jerusalem, and staid there but a few days, for he wanted provisions, and so he went his way. He left indeed a garrison behind him, such as he thought sufficient to keep the place, but drew the rest of his army off, to take their winter-quarters in Syria.
6. Now, after the king was departed, Judas was not idle; for as many of his own nation came to him, so did he gather those that had escaped out of the battle together, and gave battle again to Antiochus’s generals at a village called Adasa; and being too hard for his enemies in the battle, and killing a great number of them, he was at last himself slain also. Nor was it many days afterward that his brother John had a plot laid against him by Antiochus’s party, and was slain by them.
ENDNOTES
(1) I see little difference in the several accounts in Josephus about the Egyptian temple Onion, of which large complaints are made by his commentators. Onias, it seems, hoped to have :made it very like that at Jerusalem, and of the same dimensions; and so he appears to have really done, as far as he was able and thought proper. Of this temple, see Antiq. B. XIII. ch. 3. sect. 1--3, and Of the War, B. VII. ch. 10. sect. 8."

.

Antiochus Epiphanes was a forerunner, in 167 B.C., to the final world ruler, Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, according to Rev.13:1-3, during the tribulation, yet to take place, before the return of Christ. The issue is prophecy, of events yet to take place, not history, of events that have already taken place.


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

"...going to be the Antichrist" is exclusively dispensational speculative futurism. The Reformers recognized antichrist as an extant and already historical reality in the form of each successive pope in the papal system. And VICARIVS FILII DEI has never been repudiated by the papacy; indeed, as John Paul II has written:

"The leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the Son of God, who "takes the place" of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity."



How many people in the general population today immediately recognize most or all of the letters in "VICARIVS FILII DEI" which are also numeric, and know the values of most or all of them?

A large, and quite possibly majority, percentage of the population.

How many people in the general population today know the gematric value of the letters in the Hebrew conversion of "Nero", or for that matter any gematric values outside of the Roman alphabet numeral system?

Approximately zero.

The relationship between VICARIVS FILII DEI, and the number 666 and its significance, is evidence that can be readily seen and understood.

Alpha numerical numbers exist in Hebrew and Greek. There is no such thing in the English language.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Duplicated in error. Please delete.

Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Antiochus Epiphanes was a forerunner, in 167 B.C., to the final world ruler, Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, according to Rev.13:1-3, during the tribulation, yet to take place, before the return of Christ. The issue is prophecy, of events yet to take place, not history, of events that have already taken place.


Quasar02

Dispensational Futurism has a bad habit of transferring prophecy that has already taken place into the future in order to make their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine work.

Christ's reference to "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" in Matthew 24:15 is a prime example.
Dispensationalists try to ignore Luke 21:20-21, which shows that Christ was referring to something that happened during 70 AD. We know they are referring to the same event, because the same warning to "flee" is found in the verse that follows in both Gospel accounts. Many modern Christians seem to have no idea that John 10:22 contains a reference to Hanukkah, which is an essential part of understanding Christ's reference to the "abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel".

The truth is that the Jews of Christ's time knew very well what He meant, because they celebrated Hanukkah each year. They knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, before they happened and would have seen this as proof that the Bible is true. Not only did Antiochus set up a statue in the temple and slaughter a pig on the altar, but he also commanded that the animal sacrifices be stopped and that children not be circumcised for about 3-1/2 years. He also killed thousands of Jews in the city of Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the Jewish Historian Josephus in "Wars of the Jews". After that time period the temple was cleansed and rededicated. This was celebrated each year with the festival of Hanukkah during the time of Christ.


The same is true of "the time of Jacob's trouble."
Jeremiah was writing during the time right before and during the Babylonian captivity, which was most certainly a time of great trouble for Jacob's people.
However, Dispensationalists attempt to ignore the context of the passage and cast the term over 2,000 years into the future to make their 7 year tribulation period work.
They also ignore any time when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews during the first century. They must also ignore Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, which prove that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24, during the first century.

A good book on Jewish history would eliminate much of the confusion found on this forum. That book is "The Works of Josephus".

.

 

[precepts]

Antiochus Epiphanes also commanded that the Jews stop animal sacrifices and this was done for over 3 years. He also commanded that children not be circumcised.
The Jews of Jerusalem were forced at the point of the sword to abandon the Old Covenant system for about 3-1/2 years.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing of the temple and the renewal of animal sacrifices.
(John 10:22)

These facts can be found in the writings of the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus.

from Wars of the Jews

"Book 1, Chapter 1

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES, TO THE DEATH OF HEROD THE GREAT.
HOW THE CITY JERUSALEM WAS TAKEN, AND THE TEMPLE PILLAGED [BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES]. AS ALSO CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE MACCABEES, MATTHIAS AND JUDAS; AND CONCERNING THE DEATH OF JUDAS.
1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple (1) concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter.

2. Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine’s flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death. Bacchides also, who was sent to keep the fortresses, having these wicked commands, joined to his own natural barbarity, indulged all sorts of the extremest wickedness, and tormented the worthiest of the inhabitants, man by man, and threatened their city every day with open destruction, till at length he provoked the poor sufferers by the extremity of his wicked doings to avenge themselves.
3. Accordingly Matthias, the son of Asamoneus, one of the priests who lived in a village called Modin, armed himself, together with his own family, which had five sons of his in it, and slew Bacchides with daggers; and thereupon, out of the fear of the many garrisons [of the enemy], he fled to the mountains; and so many of the people followed him, that he was encouraged to come down from the mountains, and to give battle to Antiochus’s generals, when he beat them, and drove them out of Judea. So he came to the government by this his success, and became the prince of his own people by their own free consent, and then died, leaving the government to Judas, his eldest son.
4. Now Judas, supposing that Antiochus would not lie still, gathered an army out of his own countrymen, and was the first that made a league of friendship with the Romans, and drove Epiphanes out of the country when he had made a second expedition into it, and this by giving him a great defeat there; and when he was warmed by this great success, he made an assault upon the garrison that was in the city, for it had not been cut off hitherto; so he ejected them out of the upper city, and drove the soldiers into the lower, which part of the city was called the Citadel. He then got the temple under his power, and cleansed the whole place, and walled it round about, and made new vessels for sacred ministrations, and brought them into the temple, because the former vessels had been profaned. He also built another altar, and began to offer the sacrifices; and when the city had already received its sacred constitution again, Antiochus died; whose son Antiochus succeeded him in the kingdom, and in his hatred to the Jews also.
5. So this Antiochus got together fifty thousand footmen, and five thousand horsemen, and fourscore elephants, and marched through Judea into the mountainous parts. He then took Bethsura, which was a small city; but at a place called Bethzacharis, where the passage was narrow, Judas met him with his army. However, before the forces joined battle, Judas’s brother Eleazar, seeing the very highest of the elephants adorned with a large tower, and with military trappings of gold to guard him, and supposing that Antiochus himself was upon him, he ran a great way before his own army, and cutting his way through the enemy’s troops, he got up to the elephant; yet could he not reach him who seemed to be the king, by reason of his being so high; but still he ran his weapon into the belly of the beast, and brought him down upon himself, and was crushed to death, having done no more than attempted great things, and showed that he preferred glory before life. Now he that governed the elephant was but a private man; and had he proved to be Antiochus, Eleazar had performed nothing more by this bold stroke than that it might appear he chose to die, when he had the bare hope of thereby doing a glorious action; nay, this disappointment proved an omen to his brother [Judas] how the entire battle would end. It is true that the Jews fought it out bravely for a long time, but the king’s forces, being superior in number, and having fortune on their side, obtained the victory. And when a great many of his men were slain, Judas took the rest with him, and fled to the toparchy of Gophna. So Antiochus went to Jerusalem, and staid there but a few days, for he wanted provisions, and so he went his way. He left indeed a garrison behind him, such as he thought sufficient to keep the place, but drew the rest of his army off, to take their winter-quarters in Syria.
6. Now, after the king was departed, Judas was not idle; for as many of his own nation came to him, so did he gather those that had escaped out of the battle together, and gave battle again to Antiochus’s generals at a village called Adasa; and being too hard for his enemies in the battle, and killing a great number of them, he was at last himself slain also. Nor was it many days afterward that his brother John had a plot laid against him by Antiochus’s party, and was slain by them.
ENDNOTES
(1) I see little difference in the several accounts in Josephus about the Egyptian temple Onion, of which large complaints are made by his commentators. Onias, it seems, hoped to have :made it very like that at Jerusalem, and of the same dimensions; and so he appears to have really done, as far as he was able and thought proper. Of this temple, see Antiq. B. XIII. ch. 3. sect. 1--3, and Of the War, B. VII. ch. 10. sect. 8."

.

I know the history. But forsaking isn't a temporary thing. The forsaking of the covenant was the replacement of the Aaronic priestly line of high priests. Antiochus III the Great who reign before the guy you're crediting the pig sacrifice to, thru a political favor, gave the high priesthood to a non Aaronic priest, ending the line of firstborn sons of Aaron priests. The priests during the time of Christ were the result of this forsaking; hence the reason for the "final" desolation, the destruction of the temple and the ending of the old covenant. The whole so-called Maccabees episode and the founding of the Pharisees and Sadducees sects, were the result of this forsaking, of the Levitical covenant, which is/was the old covenant. I'm sure we've been thru this before.

Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

- The deed, the Abomination of Desolation, is aided by those who forsook the covenant of Levi, by the Isralites that were Hellenized. That's the history of the Maccabees, Pharisees, and Sadducees.

 

[precepts]

Deleted

 

[precepts]

The seven year covenant he will confirm in Dan.9:27, is a binding agreement that will be made between Israel and her Islamic neighbors. It has nothing whatever to do with the eternal New Covenant Jesus brought into existence when He shed His blood and died on a cross. As was previously addressed by Dr. Ice.


Quasar92

Quite playing. I pointed out the fact that the text says "holy" covenant. No covenant between the Israelis and their Islamic neighbors is "holy." And the reason why the text describes the covenant as being "holy," is because it is referring to the old covenant! You full well know that. Plus, you're dodging the rest of my questions.

The end of what war is Dan 9:26 referring to? Who is the "prince of the covenant," that's broken? And were there two floods in the two verses that I highlighted the word "flood" in? The point being the context of such flood causing person is Greek! (Dan 11) not Roman.

 

[BABerean2]

Antiochus III the Great who reign before the guy you're crediting the pig sacrifice to,

Are you saying that Josephus was not telling the truth about "the pig sacrifice" during 167 BC, in his history "Wars of the Jews" ?

.

 

[precepts]

Are you saying that Josephus was not telling the truth about "the pig sacrifice" during 167 BC, in his history "Wars of the Jews" ?

.

How do you come to that conclusion from what I said?

 

[BABerean2]

How do you come to that conclusion from what I said?

It is not yet a conclusion.

At this point, it is a question.

Your statement below could imply that I am "crediting" something that is not a reality.

"...the guy you're crediting the pig sacrifice to..."

.

 

[Quasar92]

Dispensational Futurism has a bad habit of transferring prophecy that has already taken place into the future in order to make their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine work.

Christ's reference to "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" in Matthew 24:15 is a prime example.
Dispensationalists try to ignore Luke 21:20-21, which shows that Christ was referring to something that happened during 70 AD. We know they are referring to the same event, because the same warning to "flee" is found in the verse that follows in both Gospel accounts. Many modern Christians seem to have no idea that John 10:22 contains a reference to Hanukkah, which is an essential part of understanding Christ's reference to the "abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel".

The truth is that the Jews of Christ's time knew very well what He meant, because they celebrated Hanukkah each year. They knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, before they happened and would have seen this as proof that the Bible is true. Not only did Antiochus set up a statue in the temple and slaughter a pig on the altar, but he also commanded that the animal sacrifices be stopped and that children not be circumcised for about 3-1/2 years. He also killed thousands of Jews in the city of Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the Jewish Historian Josephus in "Wars of the Jews". After that time period the temple was cleansed and rededicated. This was celebrated each year with the festival of Hanukkah during the time of Christ.


The same is true of "the time of Jacob's trouble."
Jeremiah was writing during the time right before and during the Babylonian captivity, which was most certainly a time of great trouble for Jacob's people.
However, Dispensationalists attempt to ignore the context of the passage and cast the term over 2,000 years into the future to make their 7 year tribulation period work.
They also ignore any time when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews during the first century. They must also ignore Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, which prove that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24, during the first century.

A good book on Jewish history would eliminate much of the confusion found on this forum. That book is "The Works of Josephus".

.

The scriptures, the OP and the following refute your above claims:

4/24/16 “ANTICHRIST & TRIBULATION - PAST OR FUTURE?” - Pastor Shane Idleman

The Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13; Lk.21 and Rev.6 have not yet taken place and as such fully endorsed by all of the following:

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.



Quasar92

Dispensational Futurism has a bad habit of transferring prophecy that has already taken place into the future in order to make their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine work.

Christ's reference to "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" in Matthew 24:15 is a prime example.
Dispensationalists try to ignore Luke 21:20-21, which shows that Christ was referring to something that happened during 70 AD. We know they are referring to the same event, because the same warning to "flee" is found in the verse that follows in both Gospel accounts. Many modern Christians seem to have no idea that John 10:22 contains a reference to Hanukkah, which is an essential part of understanding Christ's reference to the "abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel".

The truth is that the Jews of Christ's time knew very well what He meant, because they celebrated Hanukkah each year. They knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, before they happened and would have seen this as proof that the Bible is true. Not only did Antiochus set up a statue in the temple and slaughter a pig on the altar, but he also commanded that the animal sacrifices be stopped and that children not be circumcised for about 3-1/2 years. He also killed thousands of Jews in the city of Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the Jewish Historian Josephus in "Wars of the Jews". After that time period the temple was cleansed and rededicated. This was celebrated each year with the festival of Hanukkah during the time of Christ.


The same is true of "the time of Jacob's trouble."
Jeremiah was writing during the time right before and during the Babylonian captivity, which was most certainly a time of great trouble for Jacob's people.
However, Dispensationalists attempt to ignore the context of the passage and cast the term over 2,000 years into the future to make their 7 year tribulation period work.
They also ignore any time when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews during the first century. They must also ignore Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, which prove that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24, during the first century.

A good book on Jewish history would eliminate much of the confusion found on this forum. That book is "The Works of Josephus".

.

 

[BABerean2]

The Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13; Lk.21 and Rev.6 have not yet taken place and as such fully endorsed by all of the following:

The following comes straight from eSword, including the subtitles.

Anyone who denies that the first part of Luke 21:24 took place in 70 AD, is in denial of the historical record.

The disciples asked two questions and Christ answered two questions in the Olivet Discourse. (Matthew 24:1-3)

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of your coming?


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.　
Luk 21:22　 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.　

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[precepts]

It is not yet a conclusion.

At this point, it is a question.

Your statement below could imply that I am "crediting" something that is not a reality.

"...the guy you're crediting the pig sacrifice to..."

.

I said it in that way because everybody I speak to always discredits or credits the Abomination of Desolation to him; my disapproval, in that you appeared to be giving credit to him for that, too; that's not a reality, the tone you might have detected in my statement. But it had nothing to do with yours, or Josephus', statement being a falsehood, because it was never the issue.

And that is what I don't comprehend. Just because I said "the guy you're crediting the pig sacrifice to" - though reeking with negative connotations - does not, at least, to me, imply that I'm saying it that way because I think the statement is false, why I called your inquiry a conclusion.

 

[jgr]

Alpha numerical numbers exist in Hebrew and Greek. There is no such thing in the English language.


Quasar92

Alpha numerical numbers may exist in Hebrew and Greek, but almost no one knows what the numeric values are just by visual recognition.

VICARIVS FILII DEI doesn't look English to me. But the Roman alphabetic numerals and their values are widely known.

 

[Douggg]

Dispensational Futurism has a bad habit of transferring prophecy that has already taken place into the future in order to make their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine work.

Christ's reference to "the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel" in Matthew 24:15 is a prime example.
Dispensationalists try to ignore Luke 21:20-21, which shows that Christ was referring to something that happened during 70 AD. We know they are referring to the same event, because the same warning to "flee" is found in the verse that follows in both Gospel accounts. Many modern Christians seem to have no idea that John 10:22 contains a reference to Hanukkah, which is an essential part of understanding Christ's reference to the "abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel".

The truth is that the Jews of Christ's time knew very well what He meant, because they celebrated Hanukkah each year. They knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, before they happened and would have seen this as proof that the Bible is true. Not only did Antiochus set up a statue in the temple and slaughter a pig on the altar, but he also commanded that the animal sacrifices be stopped and that children not be circumcised for about 3-1/2 years. He also killed thousands of Jews in the city of Jerusalem. This is confirmed by the Jewish Historian Josephus in "Wars of the Jews". After that time period the temple was cleansed and rededicated. This was celebrated each year with the festival of Hanukkah during the time of Christ.


The same is true of "the time of Jacob's trouble."
Jeremiah was writing during the time right before and during the Babylonian captivity, which was most certainly a time of great trouble for Jacob's people.
However, Dispensationalists attempt to ignore the context of the passage and cast the term over 2,000 years into the future to make their 7 year tribulation period work.
They also ignore any time when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews during the first century. They must also ignore Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18, which prove that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24, during the first century.

A good book on Jewish history would eliminate much of the confusion found on this forum. That book is "The Works of Josephus".

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Bab2, there is nothing historically of an image that came to life and spoke.

 

[precepts]

Bab2, there is nothing historically of an image that came to life and spoke.

That's a massive point! But you can talk until you're blue in the face with this one. I just explained to him that the abomination of desolation was the forsaking of the Levitical covenant/priesthood and he's still quoting Josephus and promoting the sacrifice of a pig as the defilement, meaning he thinks the "ceasing" of the Aaronic line of high priests and second priests isn't important, only the Maccabees history, just because Hannakuh is mentioned in the new testament. But that was the reason why Yah-ru-Shalem and the temple were destroyed, because it was the abomination, "that makes it" desolate, that was set up during the time of the Greeks, the non-Aaronic priests as high and second priests.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.​

That doesn't happen in 3 1/2 years, though it's an established fact that it does occur during the reign of the Greek empire, during the time of the Greek little horn that came up among one of the 4 generals that inherited respective kingdoms after Alexander's death.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.​

That's not 3 1/2 years either, not to mention that Dan 12:11-12 lists a different set of numbers for the time of defilement:

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. ​

Dan 8:13 says 2,300 days of defilement, while Dan 12:11 says 1,290 days.

 

[Quasar92]

The following comes straight from eSword, including the subtitles.

Anyone who denies that the first part of Luke 21:24 took place in 70 AD, is in denial of the historical record.

The disciples asked two questions and Christ answered two questions in the Olivet Discourse. (Matthew 24:1-3)

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of your coming?


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.　
Luk 21:22　 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.　

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The Scriptural facts as posted in #92, together with the entire listing of qualified theologians of the Bible, refute your ridiculous claim, the tribulation took place in 70 A.D.! Which means Jesus returned in 70 A.D., because it is Jesus who will end the seven yer tribulation, AFTER His second coming, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21! You are also falsely implying the seven seal, trumpet and bowl judgments have taken place. All 21 of them. I suggest you review them all to know how faulty your belief system is. When the bowl judgments are finished in Rev. 16, the earth will be in a complete shambles. None of which has ever taken place, in all of history!


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

The Scriptural facts as posted in #92, together with the entire listing of qualified theologians of the Bible, refute your ridiculous claim, the tribulation took place in 70 A.D.! Which means Jesus returned in 70 A.D., because it is Jesus who will end the seven yer tribulation, AFTER His second coming, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21! You are also falsely implying the seven seal, trumpet and bowl judgments have taken place. All 21 of them. I suggest you review them all to know how faulty your belief system is. When the bowl judgments are finished in Rev. 16, the earth will be in a complete shambles. None of which has ever taken place, in all of history!


Quasar92

Guess you'll have to add these lads to your list of ridiculous claimants.
Oh, and as qualified as your theologians may be, they pale into invisibility beside these.

325AD Eusebius "It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground." And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, "For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And again: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (Book III, Ch. VII)

375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:20,21) Then, to show again the greatness of the calamity, He saith, "Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." [Matt. 24:20, 21] (Homily 76, Number 2) Seest thou that His discourse is addressed to the Jews, and that He is speaking of the ills that should overtake them? For the apostles surely were not to keep the Sabbath day, neither to be there, when Vespasian did those things. For indeed the most part of them were already departed this life. And if any was left, he was dwelling then in other parts of the world. But wherefore neither "in the winter, nor on the Sabbath day?" Not in the winter, because of the difficulty arising from the season; not on the Sabbath day, because of the absolute authority exercised by the law. For since they had need of flight, and of the swiftest flight, but neither would the Jews dare to flee on the Sabbath day, because of the law, neither in winter was such a thing easy; therefore, "Pray ye," saith He; "for then shall be tribulation, such as never was, neither shall be." And let not any man suppose this to have been spoken hyperbolically; but let him study the writings of Josephus, and learn the truth of the sayings. For neither can any one say, that the man being a believer, in order to establish Christ's words, hath exaggerated the tragical history. For indeed he was both a Jew, and a determined Jew, and very zealous, and among them that lived after Christ's coming. " But mark, I pray thee, the exceeding greatness of the ills, when not only compared with the time before, they appear more grievous, but also with all the time to come. For not in all the world, neither in all time that is past, and that is to come, shall any one be able to say such ills have been. And very naturally; for neither had any man perpetrated, not of those that ever have been, nor of those to come hereafter, a deed so wicked and horrible. Therefore He saith, "there shall be tribulation such as never was, nor shall be." (Homily 76, Number 2)

 

[BABerean2]

The Scriptural facts as posted in #92, together with the entire listing of qualified theologians of the Bible, refute your ridiculous claim, the tribulation took place in 70 A.D.! Which means Jesus returned in 70 A.D., because it is Jesus who will end the seven yer tribulation, AFTER His second coming, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21! You are also falsely implying the seven seal, trumpet and bowl judgments have taken place. All 21 of them. I suggest you review them all to know how faulty your belief system is. When the bowl judgments are finished in Rev. 16, the earth will be in a complete shambles. None of which has ever taken place, in all of history!


Quasar92

John Darby does not agree with you in his commentary below.

Luke 21:1-38
The Lord's discourse in chapter 21 displays the character of the Gospel in a peculiar manner. The spirit of grace, in contrast with the Judaic spirit, is seen in the account of the poor widow's offering. But the Lord's prophecy requires more detailed notice. Verse 6 (Luk_21:9), as we saw at the end of chapter 19, speaks only of the destruction of Jerusalem as she then stood. This is true also of the disciples' question. They say nothing of the end of the age. The Lord afterwards enters upon the duties and the circumstances of His disciples previous to that hour. In Verse 8 (Luk_21:8) it is said, "The time draweth near," which is not found in Matthew. He goes much more into detail with regard to their ministry during that period, encourages them, promises them necessary help. Persecution should turn to them for a testimony. From the middle of Verse 11 to the end of Verse 19 (Luk_21:11-19) we have details relative to His disciples, that are not found in the corresponding passage of Matthew. They present the general state of things in the same sense, adding the condition of the Jews, of those especially who, more or less, professedly received the word. The whole stream of testimony, as rendered in connection with Israel, but extending to the nations, is found in Matthew to the end of Verse 14 (Luk_21:14). In Luke it is the coming service of the disciples, until the moment when the judgment of God should put an end to that which was virtually terminated by the rejection of Christ. Consequently the Lord says nothing in Verse 20 (Luk_21:20) of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, but gives the fact of the siege of Jerusalem, and its then approaching desolation — not the end of the age, as in Matthew. These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live. There is a break here in the discourse. Its principal subject is ended; but there are still some events of the last scene to be revealed, which close the history of this Gentile supremacy.

We shall see also that, although it is the commencement of the judgment, from which Jerusalem will not arise until all is accomplished and the song of Isaiah 40 is addressed to her, nevertheless, the great tribulation is not mentioned here. There is great distress, and wrath upon the people, as was indeed the case in the siege of Jerusalem by Titus; and the Jews were also led away captive. Neither is it said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." Nevertheless, without designating the epoch, but after having spoken of the times of the Gentiles, the end of the age comes. There are signs in heaven, distress on earth, a mighty movement in the waves of human population. The heart of man, moved by a prophetic alarm, foresees the calamities which, still unknown, are threatening him; for all the influences that govern men are shaken. Then shall they see the Son of man, once rejected from the earth, coming from heaven with the ensigns of Jehovah, with power and great glory — the Son of man, of whom this Gospel has always spoken. There the prophecy ends. We have not here the gathering together of the elect Israelites, who had been dispersed, of which Matthew speaks.
That which follows consists of exhortations, in order that the day of distress may be a token of deliverance to the faith of those who, trusting in the Lord, obey the voice of His servant. The "generation" (a word already explained when considering Matthew) should not pass away till all was fulfilled. The length of the time that has elapsed since then, and that must elapse until the end, is left in darkness. Heavenly things are not measured by dates. Moreover that moment is hidden in the knowledge of the Father. Still heaven and earth should pass away, but not the words of Jesus. He then tells them that, as dwelling on earth, they must be watchful, lest their own hearts should be overcharged with things that would sink them into this world, in the midst of which they were to be witnesses. For that day would come as a snare upon all those who had their dwelling here, who were rooted here. They were to watch and pray, in order to escape all those things, and to stand in the presence of the Son of man. This is still the great subject of our Gospel. To be with Him, as those who have escaped from the earth, to be among the 144,000 on Mount Zion, will be an accomplishment of this blessing, but the place is not named; so that, supposing the faithfulness of those whom He was personally addressing, the hope awakened by His words would be fulfilled in a more excellent manner in His heavenly presence in the day of glory.

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