• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Major Discrepancy Between Ezekiel and Johns New Jerusalem.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Daniel Martinovich, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    When our Lord Jesus returns, His separating the goats from His sheep is a type of judgment, but it is not the GWT Judgment. The purpose of the Matt.25 separation is for the same reason the dead are separated, like the Paradise account our Lord Jesus gave in Luke 16. In Rev.22:14-15, which is Millennial timing, we can clearly see that separation there also. So it's not our Lord Jesus didn't show us this; we just have to stop and think about it in conjunction with the various Scriptures He gave us for that future time, including what's written in the OT prophets.

    I agree the order of events in Rev.21 & 22 can be confusing. But just the fact that our Lord Jesus gave the event of Rev.22:14-15 with the wicked being outside the gates of the holy city shows that section of Rev.22 is Millennial timing, and not new heavens and new earth timing. Likewise in Ezekiel 47, the River and tree of life is manifest, but it's Millennial timing because the waters flow out of a temple or sanctuary.
     
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The 6th Seal timing of Rev.6:12-17 is covering the tribulation timing all the way to the day of The Lord when Jesus returns. Many of the events in our Lord's Revelation are not in chronological order. Those Rev.6:14-17 verses are day of The Lord events and link with the events on the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

    I eventually learned the layout of the seals, trumpets, and vials in our Lord's Revelation is actually per the seven signs He gave in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21). That means events of the seals, trumpets, and vials overlap, and are actually only about 7 main signs of the end He gave, with our Lord Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church being the final sign.


    On the 6th vial of Rev.16, our Lord Jesus is giving those of His Church a warning for that period that He comes "as a thief". Where did Apostle Paul teach about that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night"? 1 Thessalonians 5. So our Lord's Wrath on the day of The Lord is not until that final... 7th Vial of Rev.16, which is the battle of Armageddon.

    And Armageddon is the FINAL battle of this present world, and one that He and His angels fight when He comes to Jerusalem on the 7th trumpet. That also is the same timing when He will gather His Church and bring the consuming fire that will burn man's works off this earth and begin His future thousand years reign.
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Our Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured when raised from the dead. Our flesh bodies will not be.

    Anyone who believes our flesh body is what is resurrected has actually latched onto a teaching from eastern religion, it's called reincarnation.

    Scripture from both Apostle Paul and Apostle John reveals the flesh bodies we have today is not the body that will be! (1 Cor.15:37; 1 John 3:2).

    Early on in Eccl.12, it was revealed that we are both spirit and flesh, and that when our flesh dies it goes back to the earthly elements where it come from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. Mentioned there is a "silver cord" that is severed when that happens, showing our spirit is attached to our flesh with some sort of spiritual silver cord we cannot see.

    That emphatically reveals the difference between two different dimensions of existence, this earthly one, and the heavenly one.

    But some brethren, apparently like yourself, want to believe one cannot exist without a flesh body, when even Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.5 taught that even if our flesh body were 'dissolved', we have another body not made of flesh (not made with hands), but is eternal, which is the resurrection body he taught of in 1 Cor.15.

    Sorry you don't understand this matter, but instead have the audacity to call it heresay, most likely because you're still on an old Pharisee Jewish confusion about what the resurrection body is about.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +688
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    This theory is quite incorrect.
    The Day of the Lord's wrath is just that; one day.
    Proved by Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 9:14, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, Psalms 50:1-3, +

    Shuffling the sequence or linking the Seals, Trumpets and bowls together, is wrong and just leads to confusion about what will happen.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Not theory, it's called actually keeping... to the subject context of those Scriptures, and not falling into doctrines of men which teach their own order of the events outside of Scripture, i.e., Dispensationalism.

    The "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to end the reign of the wicked on earth and gather His Church. This is what our Lord Jesus showed when He said He comes "as a thief", and by His servant Paul in 1 Thess.5 when Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Paul even pointed to the "sudden destruction" that will occur on that final day of this world, i.e., the "day of the Lord".

    Moreover, Christ coming "as a thief" is about His Olivet Discourse explanation of the good steward or watchman that watches.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +688
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    So in your opinion, the Day of the Lord is the next and the final event of this world?

    Note: that in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5, Paul does not say or even imply that the sudden destruction is the last day.
    There is a lot prophesied to happen between the Sixth Seal and the glorious Return of Jesus.
     
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +333
    Christian
    Married
    Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same event of the "Final Judgment" "Eternal Life" "Eternal Kingdom"
    Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, nations gathered before the Great White Throne for judgment
    Verse 34 the eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.
    Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.
    Verse 46 The righteous obtain "Eternal Life" and enter the "Eternal Kingdom" in verse 34

    You continue to use the words "Millennial Time"?

    There will be no future 1000 year earthly kingdom as many teach in error.

    Ezekiel 47:12 is the "Eternal Kingdom" the river of life is present, the tree of life with leaves that dont wither "Eternal", bearing fruit every month, leaves for healing, also seen in Revelation 22:1-5

    You use the term "Millennial Timing" trying to separate Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5 as two different places and times?

    100% False!

    You need to read Matthew 25:31-46 again and again to understand that Jesus Christ returns in the "Final Judgment", "Eternal Life", "Eternal Kingdom" Eternity Begins, For Ever And Ever :)

    There Is No Temporary 1000 Year Kingdom On This Earth After Jesus Christ Returns, A Teaching In Error.

    Jesus Christ Is Lord :)

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  8. Another Lazarus

    Another Lazarus Old Newbie

    +974
    Christian
    Married
    The Temple seen by Ezekiel is meant to be rebuilt as the 2nd Temple because Ezekiel was told to describe it to the Hebrew when they were in captivity in Babylon :
    Ez 43:10 "Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection,

    Ezekiel 40:4
    Ezekiel was told to declare the Temple to the House of Israel, meant for them not for the end times situation.
    The man said to me, "Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. DECLARE TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL all that you see."
    11"If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws.

    There's no way that God was showing the Hebrew the design for the New Jerusalem
    during that Babylonian captivity.
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Your refusal to accept Scripture like Rev.20 which teaches emphatically about a "thousand years" period reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect reveals a huge hole in your understanding.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul was emphatic with that "sudden destruction" occuring on the last day of this present world, because that is the day of Christ's coming which Jesus linked in Rev.16 on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief". Paul taught there plainly that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

    Don't you recall what Peter also taught in 2 Pet.3:10 that happens on that "day of the Lord"? How can you deny that's the last day of this world with the elements of man's works being burned off this earth on that day? And you say Paul isn't speaking of that "sudden destruction" being on the last day, the "day of the Lord"?

    Please make sure you're not denying Scripture just to keep a doctrine of men you've been taught.
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    That same temple Ezekiel was being shown by vision included God's River of the waters of life and the tree of life per Ezekiel 47. It revealed God's gathering of all the 12 tribes of Israel back to the land, and their inheritances. And the last verse of Ezekiel 48 says the name of the city will then be called "The LORD is there".

    So how is it that you want to place that temple back during this present world time?
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +688
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    The Day of the Lord, that Peter and Paul speak of is not the Return of Jesus, but the Day of the Lord's wrath. That we know happens at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:17
    That terrible Day of the Lord's Judgement and punishment of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Isaiah 63:1-6, +, is the Day that will come as a thief, sudden unexpected destruction. It will be the event that sets the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt, but we Christians will migrate to the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Psalms 107, +

    Years later, Jesus will Return in glory, not destruction. Only to dispose of the armies of the Anti-Christ and to chain him up. On the great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14 A Day that we will know when, it being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated by the AC.

    Re what I have been taught: I have never been to a Bible College or Seminary and the Methodist Church I was brought up in never mentioned prophecy.
    All my understanding of the Prophetic Word is from my own intensive study. My many articles on what God has planned for our future are all free at: logostelos.info
     
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +333
    Christian
    Married
    Revelation 20:1-6 is in the Lords eternal spiritual. When the believer dies he enters this "Non-Literal" 1000 years, there is no earthly time in the Lords spiritual. 2 Peter 3:8

    No physical, earthly, human, kingdom seen in Verse 1-6?

    Angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, 100% The Lords Spiritual :)

    I Refuse To Accept a 1000 year earthly kingdom, Because Its Not Found In The Scripture :)

    Jesus Christ Is Lord :)

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    606
    +129
    United States
    Christian
    Married


    Per a view like yours, when satan is released from his prison after the thousand years are finished, does it mean he gathers together an army to attack the souls currently dwelling in this "Non-Literal" 1000 years, in heaven?


    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    For some strange reason the text appears to place all of these above events in the earthly realm, and that this has nothing to do with saints dwelling as souls in heaven during this "Non-Literal" 1000 years you speak of.

    Notice what the text states----and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. The beloved city is obviously meaning Jerusalem, except when Christ returns that's not where the camp of the saints will be found. Currently the saints are scattered throughout the world. In the new heavens and new earth their camp will basically be in the new Jerusalem. In this context I tend to take the beloved city to be meaning the new Jerusalem. That would place the timing of this after the 2nd coming, and during the new heavens and new earth.
     
  15. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +333
    Christian
    Married
    Satan will be loosed in Revelation 20:7 to perform Gods will in deceiving the nations to the "Final Battle" also seen in Revelation 16:12-14

    This takes place towards "The End" of the future tribulation, the armies will surround Jerusalem, fire comes down from heaven in the second advent, final judgment, eternal kingdom, "End Of This Earth" Eternity begins Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10-13

    The "Non-Literal" 1000 year reign is taking place now in the Lords spiritual realm of Eternal "No Earthly Time" 1000 not literal years, 2 Peter 3:8

    If a future tribulation saint dies one week before the 2nd coming, he enters this 1000 year reign.

    1000 years = Eternal

    Billion = Eternal

    Trillion = Eternal

    Zillion = Eternal

    One Day = Eternal

    2 Peter 3:8

    No earthly Time In The Lords Eternal :)

    Revelation 20:1-6 "The Lords Eternal"

    Angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, 100% The Lords Eternal :)

    Hope that helps :)

    Jesus Christ Is Lord :)

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  16. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

    +575
    Christian
    Married
    That is false.
    Jesus/Yeshua/YHWH in the Person of God the Word, rose in the very same body that was created new, in the womb of the virgin, for him to put on like a Garment -Isaiah 59 states that fact. . He is still in it. He is returning in it, as Revelation 19 shows.
    He remained on earth after He rose in that body, before His ascension, for 50 days, eating in that same flesh body and drinking in that same flesh body and being seen in that flesh body by upwards of 500 persons, including his womb brothers, states the Word of God..
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Oh yes it is the day of Christ's 2nd coming. I guess you're going to make me post the Scripture.

    In Rev.16 on the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief":

    Rev 16:15-17
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


    16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    KJV

    On that 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He will come "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch and keep their garments. Then on that 6th Vial He gathers the nations against Israel at Armageddon. Then ON THE 7TH VIAL is poured out His indignation, the event like Zeph.3:8, etc., which is the "day of the Lord", the time of His Wrath poured upon the wicked.

    It is NOT poured out upon His servants that are still alive on earth. That's one of the reasons why we were shown in Dan.3 about the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary. This consuming fire event will not harm us. He is not angry with us.

    In 1 Thess.5, Paul taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", the very "as a thief" timing our Lord Jesus said that He comes in Rev.16:15.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Rev 20:6-9
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    KJV
     
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

    674
    +104
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Many of the Jews believed (and still believe) in the doctrine of reincarnation.

    The Father raised Jesus' flesh body, and it retained the marks of His crucifixion, and it was transfigured to the heavenly order, because He appeared to the disciples in a closed room right in their midst, ate with them another time and disappeared right in front of them, and even while they were walking together He disappeared from them. Flesh like we have cannot walk through walls.

    Apostle Paul was very emphatic in 1 Cor.15:50 that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

    We will not be raised with new flesh bodies, nor reconstituted flesh of our old bodies. Like Paul also taught in 2 Cor.5, if our earthly house were dissolved, we have another body not made with hands, meaning NOT flesh, but eternal in the heavens, meaning the "spiritual body" he taught in 1 Cor.15.
     
  20. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +333
    Christian
    Married
    No earthly Time In The Lords Eternal

    Revelation 20:1-6 "The Lords Eternal"

    Angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, 100% The Lords Eternal
     
Loading...