The Magnitude of the End of the Age

Achilles6129

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I would have thought you may want to know more about what God has planned for our future.

Of course. I think the Bible is pretty explicit.

You show how little you know of OT prophecy. Jerusalem and all the cities of the Middle east will be destroyed in the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath: Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 29:1-8, Isaiah 64:10-12, Jeremiah 7:34, Jeremiah 9:11, Amos 2:5. Plus Damascus; Isaiah 17:1. Plus Amman; Amos 1:13-14, Zephaniah 2:9

So how is God going to dwell in Jerusalem if it's destroyed? Obviously those passages are referring either to the historical sacking of the city or to the fact that the city is sacked (or at least half of it) near the end of the age, but not totally destroyed as Babylon is in Revelation.
 
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Achilles6129

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Achilles,
You replied to me saying you'd be willing to discuss a couple passages and I agreed, but things are so out of sequence I'm having trouble locating the necessary posts. I believe you wanted to discuss I Thessalonians 4 passages and I Corinthians 15 to examine the sequence of end time events given us there and compare it to your response to me regarding Matthew 24:37-41??
Located the posts; here they are...
TFT Post:
But one must also take these end time passages into account when considering what these seeming catastrophes might look like...
Matthew 24:37-41:
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

We know that they will be days of great distress, but seems that this distress is mostly experienced by only some...believers. Does this mean persecution? does this mean spiritual and emotional pain? Feelings of being torn between going the way of the world or facing severe persecution? Could be pain due to spiritually lost loved one? I don't know, but some will be making merry according to these passages I quote so I'd rule out natural disasters, etc...that comes immediately before the Return.
Achilles Response:
I've considered these passages as well. I think that one set of passages (the peaceful set) is speaking about the rapture, and the other set of passages (the catastrophic set) is speaking about the wrath of God.

So I think that the rapture happens first and then that inaugurates the wrath and the judgement of God.

Let me know how you'd like to get into this discussion or how to go about it most expeditiously.

Hi,

Yes, you indicated that 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 contradict the idea of a rapture. I said that I believe the reason that there are "peaceful" passages about the day the son of man is revealed is because they are referring to the rapture, while "catastrophic" passages are referring to the actual physical second coming at the end of the age. You indicated that you thought that 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 contradicted this, and I wanted you to explain how.
 
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Achilles6129

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He certainly expected to be alive when it happened!

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So why can't the "we" be a general term for Christianity, much like these passages?

"9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." Mt. 24:9 (NIV)

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”" Mt. 28:20b (NIV)
 
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parousia70

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So why can't the "we" be a general term for Christianity, much like these passages?

"9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." Mt. 24:9 (NIV)

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”" Mt. 28:20b (NIV)

It can.
But importantly in your examples, no matter who else they apply to, the original audience can never be removed from application the way you are removing them from the Thessalonian passage.

Those passages in Matt had direct application to the actual people standing there listening to Jesus.

You would have us believe the Thessalonian passage in question did not have any direct application to the 1st century Thessalonians.

Your claim is when Paul said "We" that Paul and the Thessalonian congregation he was addressing were not included.

Such is untenable.
 
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Achilles6129

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Pales in comparison to Shellfish eaters.

10% of people are Homosexual, and just 1/2 of 1% (0.5%) are transgender.

Hardly the sweeping abominable epidemic you make it out to be...

Shellfish eaters on the other hand?..... Clearly they are the ones we need to watch out for!
Could even be your next door neighbor!

And don't get me started on the rampant, uncontrolled 21st century abomination of Rayon/Cotton Blends... Doomsday Fabric for sure!

The laws about unclean animals in the OT are a different type of law than moral laws involving homosexuality. God gave laws about unclean animals for symbolic reasons, while he gave laws about homosexuality for moral reasons. This is why Christ proclaimed all foods clean in the NT (abrogating that portion of OT law), but said nothing about abrogating homosexuality.
 
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Achilles6129

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It can.
But importantly in your examples, no matter who else they apply to, the original audience can never be removed from application the way you are removing them from the Thessalonian passage.

Those passages in Matt had direct application to the actual people standing there listening to Jesus.

You would have us believe the Thessalonian passage in question did not have any direct application to the 1st century Thessalonians.

Your claim is when Paul said "We" that Paul and the Thessalonian congregation he was addressing were not included.

Such is untenable.

Not necessarily untenable at all. But supposing that I grant that it is "untenable," you still have to consider the fact that Paul did not know when the end was going to occur. So he's writing hypothetically.
 
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keras

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So how is God going to dwell in Jerusalem if it's destroyed? Obviously those passages are referring either to the historical sacking of the city or to the fact that the city is sacked (or at least half of it) near the end of the age, but not totally destroyed as Babylon is in Revelation.
Again you show your lack of knowledge of Bible prophecy. Jerusalem, as we know it today, will be destroyed; and good riddance. The Muslim shrines will be gone, the Jewish synagogues will be gone, the filthy narrow streets and the shoddy constructions will be gone. There are 10 + prophesies about this destruction.
But the new citizens of the holy Land will be called the rebuilders of the ancient places. Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 44:26, Ezekiel 28:25-26
 
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Achilles6129

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Again you show your lack of knowledge of Bible prophecy. Jerusalem, as we know it today, will be destroyed; and good riddance. The Muslim shrines will be gone, the Jewish synagogues will be gone, the filthy narrow streets and the shoddy constructions will be gone. There are 10 + prophesies about this destruction.
But the new citizens of the holy Land will be called the rebuilders of the ancient places. Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 44:26, Ezekiel 28:25-26

OK, well we will have to disagree then. I think that Jerusalem will always be around since God will reign there. Babylon seems to be totally destroyed in Revelation, so that would rule out Jerusalem.
 
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parousia70

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Not necessarily untenable at all. But supposing that I grant that it is "untenable," you still have to consider the fact that Paul did not know when the end was going to occur. So he's writing hypothetically.

He certainly knew that the end of the ages had come upon him and his contemporaries:

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Nothing hypothetical about that.
 
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parousia70

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OK, well we will have to disagree then. I think that Jerusalem will always be around since God will reign there. Babylon seems to be totally destroyed in Revelation, so that would rule out Jerusalem.

So you aren't including the 1900 years it wasn't around in your definition of "always"?
 
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The Times

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Thanks.
Are you going to return the favor?

I'm happy to have a conversation with you, but it needs to be a conversation... right now it pretty much a one sided interrogation.

How about you extend me the same courtesy I have extended you and answer my questions about your condoning of the lifestyles of greed, gluttony and sloth.

Why do you condone that which God has said is wrong?

Again, unrepentant gluttony lands one in the lake of fire, agreed?

Is there a different lake of fire for unrepentant homosexuality that you can enlighten us about?

I simply gave you a critical evaluation of your own self assesment, so count that as a positive critical feedback.

When you use a straw man's argumemt and are caught red handed in doing so, I then cannot proceed to help you in this regard, other than to repeat myself by saying.....that I will not let you off that easy, especially when I perceive that you are trying to contort biblical truths by using these straw man's arguments like.....

Weirdly, Homosexuality and Transgenderism are topics Jesus never uttered word one about.

Refuted, Jesus never taught nor approved of Homosexuality and clearly defined a legal marital union between a man and woman and fulfilled all the Old Testament law, which denounced homosexuality and declared it as an abomination worthy of death. The severity of the sin in the Old Testament is encapsulated by the death sentence given to the sinner.

Wow...Indeed the time is ripe... there are more Red Lobster Restaurants today than ever have been in the History of the Human Race, certainly a sign of the wickedness of humanity:

Refuted, the dietary rules for Israelites in those days and places who didn't have access to our medical system, in case of food poisoning, especially in the hot Middle Eastern climate were importantly regulated and enforced to prevent an outbreak of food poisoning within their society. They would have probably experienced this outbreak. But those dietary regulations in no way compares to the sin of homosexual practices which are spiritual by application and since Jesus taught his disciples to live by the spirit, then any sin under this category for a repeat offender is counted as a sin that separates the sinner from God and this results in spiritual death. Those who aid, abet and embrace these repeat offenders are also taking part in their condemnation and judgement.

People go to the same Lake of Fire for urepentant Gluttony, sloth, stealing, coveting, & greed that they do for unrepentant Homosexuality.

Refuted, no within the New Testament those who eat pork are not judged as sinners because unlike the Old Testament the New Testament counts the sins committed by in the spirit before they even manifest in the flesh. Jesus said if you even lust in your heart for a women you have already sinned. Since dietary laws no longer apply as sins because we are under the new covenant dead to the flesh.

The fires are no hotter for the Homosexual than they are for the Fat Slob who won't stop stuffing Big Macs in his/her face.

Refuted, again Old Testament dietary laws applied to those who were not born again of the Spirit of God and so lived in the flesh and their obedience was determined by observance of fleshly statutes. In the New Testament we live in the Spirit and our circumcision is in the heart and so homosexual practices fall under the category of sins of the spirit that defiles God's Created Right Image.

There is no prohibition I know of in scripture that prevents me from doing any of those things.

Refuted, no prohibition of practices pertaining to dietary statutes, as Jesus said "the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.” (Matthew 15:18-20)
Homosexuality falls under sexual immorality which is declared as Sodomy, where Jesus clearly condemned.

Perhaps you could point me to your posts condemning Greed, Sloth and Gluttony... for if you are not actively speaking out against those grave, damnable sins, it makes me wonder if you support them?

Refuted again and again! going in circles don't make it right friend, it is simply becoming a case of a frustrated man indeed.

Especially since all three of those far outpace Homosexuality and Transgenderism in sheer number of adherents... by astronomical proportions.

Refuted, more circles and at the same time the same straw man dressed in leotard.

10% of people are Homosexual, and just 1/2 of 1% (0.5%) are transgender.

Refuted, actual percentages doesn't count those who have sinned in their hearts or those who aid, abet and embrace this lawless practice. It is more like 98% fallen!

Hardly the sweeping abominable epidemic you make it out to be...

Refuted, really this is a conclusion to your string of straw man's. Globally people/prosopos of sin are rebelling against God and defiling his image and we have countless others who are aiding, abetting and embracing repeat offenders who practice this lawlessness.

Shellfish eaters on the other hand?..... Clearly they are the ones we need to watch out for!

Refuted, really now you want to institute the old covenant fleshly statutes because I am gathering from your reply that you don't favour what constitutes living in the spirit under the new covenant, since you say those who are shellfish eaters are more of a concern than homosexuals who practice homosexuality and who do all those sexual immoral practices that are condemned by Jesus Christ and that are clearly declared as Sodomy.
 
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The Times

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The laws about unclean animals in the OT are a different type of law than moral laws involving homosexuality. God gave laws about unclean animals for symbolic reasons, while he gave laws about homosexuality for moral reasons. This is why Christ proclaimed all foods clean in the NT (abrogating that portion of OT law), but said nothing about abrogating homosexuality.


Dietary old covenant statutes and new covenant law is defined by Jesus. Jesus said what constitutes sin that results in spiritual death as follows....

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
(Matthew 15:16-20)
 
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The Times

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So why can't the "we" be a general term for Christianity, much like these passages?

"9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." Mt. 24:9 (NIV)

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”" Mt. 28:20b (NIV)

Paul thought that he would be alive to witness Christ's second advent. Yet the letter in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 was an earlier writing than that of Timothy, where Paul writes....

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

We then compare the two versus as so......

Believers Who Have Died

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words
.

The correlation that Paul makes between those faithful who have died in the Lord, as compared to himself and others who remain alive, is self evident that the Lord's coming is a physical coming that reunites the faithful with his Lord. The precedence of the dead before the living is highly indicative of a orderly progression from this temporal life to eternal life with Christ Jesus.

Paul in Timothy then concedes that he too will be amongst the dead who will await the Lord's appearing. How could a person who will literally die be looking so forward to receiving the ultimate prize and at the same time realising his reunion with Jesus Christ.

This means that the WE HAS PROGRESSED TO OUR GENERATION.
 
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keras

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OK, well we will have to disagree then. I think that Jerusalem will always be around since God will reign there. Babylon seems to be totally destroyed in Revelation, so that would rule out Jerusalem.
The location of Jerusalem remains, but the city will be destroyed and rebuilt, as has happened before and will happen again.

The Lords fiery judgement on the Middle East:
Isaiah 29:1-2 Woe to you Ariel! Ariel, the city where David settled. The years roll on and you carry out your festivals. Yet, I shall reduce Ariel to dire straits. There will be suffering and sorrow, when I make her My fire altar.

Ariel – is a pun on the Hebrew word, ‘har’el’ = the Temple burnt offering altar. In this prophecy, it refers to Jerusalem and all the State of Israel. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 22:1-14, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 12:14

Isaiah 29:3-4 I will encompass you and besiege you with the visitation of My fiery judgement. You will be brought low, you will hide underground, your voice will whisper out of the earth.
The Lord’s judgement/punishment of the nations, by fire from God’s storehouse, Deut. 32:22,34-35,41-43, will be an explosion of the sun, Isaiah 30:26a, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17
Joel 2:1-11 Sound the alarm! For the Day of the Lord’s wrath is coming. As the sun rises, a vast host will appear, the like has never been known. It advances in a devouring fire, behind is a leaping flame that leaves a desolate wasteland. Nothing can escape it, nothing can stop it and as it strikes, the earth quakes and the heavens thunder. Who can survive that dark and terrible Day?
The survivors in Jerusalem will shelter in underground bunkers. Isaiah 31:5, Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 37:31-32

Isaiah 29:5-8 But, your enemies will become like dust, those ruthless hordes, like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, punishment will come from the Lord Almighty, with earthquakes, thunder, storms and a blaze of devouring fire. All the nations warring against Mt Zion, will vanish, as a dream, like one who is hungry or thirsty; then wakes to find himself empty, so it will be with all those nations attacking Israel. Malachi 4:3

The fire judgement on the Middle East, striking ‘in an instant’, will be a Coronal Mass Ejection: a sunstrike of unprecedented magnitude and is the next prophesied event we can expect, it is the Day that will ‘come as a thief’, sudden and unexpectedly. Zechariah 3:9, Isaiah 10:17 It is quite a different event to what is described about the attack and destruction of Gog or of Armageddon, both to come later, respectively.
Psalm 83:13-18, Isaiah 34:5, Isaiah 30:25-28 & 30, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18,

The regeneration of the Middle East: Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:13-15

Isaiah 29:17-21 In a very short time, the Land will be made prosperous again. On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see and the lowly and poor will exult in the Holy One of Israel. The ruthless and evil peoples will be gone, all who practice falsehood will be cut down. Isaiah 66:12-17, Psalm 107:1-43, Jeremiah 33:12-13

Isaiah 29:22-23 Therefore, these are the words of the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, about the House of Jacob: [now: every true Christian believer] This is no time for you to be ashamed, no time to be frightened, for his descendants will praise My Name, when they see what I have done for them. They will stand in awe of the Holy God of Israel. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses condensed.

Righteous Israel, all those whose names are written in the Book, Malachi 3:16-18, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in, will be gathered into the Land, ”in a very short time” after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations Ezekiel 20: 34-38, Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 30:18-24
 
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We have to unlock what the abomination that maketh desolate is.

If we look at anthropological cultural governance across human history and at the same time harmonise scripture as to what this abomination is and how it is connected to the ultimate LIE from Satan that was sold to Adam and Eve in the Garden, then we can conclude that this LIE existed from the Garden.

Knowing that the LIE having existed from the Garden, we can then compare it with the cultures that existed throughout history. It is documented thoroughly that previous to our 21st century only Theonomous cultures existed, where governance of populas was adjudicated by spiritual leaders within a Theonomous law culture, so that all were accountable and answerable to a higher authority other than man, so that man was made to serve the gods.

In the 21 st century we have a completely divergent global kingdom that is Autonomous and legislates to serve man, rather than God or gods in the case of the pagans.

So we know that something has been legalised in our day and age that focuses to serve the creature, to make life more tolerable as far as the tolerance agenda entails. This fits like a glove with the LIE in the garden that Satan sold, that is......

"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:5)

So Satan sells his LIE for the final time by conscripting man to embrace it, in order to have worldly peace through a global tolerance agenda that focuses on serving man and by so doing aiming to make many compromises.

This Offcourse didn't happen overnight, until they crossed the focal point of no return, that is, the abomination before God that will bring destruction upon humanity.

There are archeological, anthropological, Biblical facts that point to destruction of those Sodom like societies. From the biblical aspect, we have Sodom and Gommorah, Noah's flood, future prophesied generation.....

Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (Matthew 10:15)

But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (Matthew 11:24)

We know that reference to Sodom and the day of judgement, is future tense and it would be an event that is paralleled to none.

Homosexuality leading to Transgenderism leading to Transhumanism is the central theme that is being sold to serve the LIE.

JUST LOOK AT THIS VIDEO.....


Now reflect on these points.....

Destroy the family through the homosexual agenda.

Destroy the definition of male and female through the transgender agenda.

Destroy the definition of human through the transhumanist agenda.


If you still think that this abomination that maketh desolate is not connected to the LIE from Satan, then please understand what Satan prophesied about the human race....

You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5)

You see Satan prophesied as well in regards to a future race that will have immortality at their disposal and that they will be like God immortal.

Does Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Transhumanism not serve Satan's LIE, that is, you shall surely not die, you will be immortal like God.

As written in 2 Thessalonians 2:9

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

These feets of technology with the goal of immortality are part and parcel of the many signs and wonders that serve the LIE of Satan that was sold to Adam and Eve in the Garden.
 
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The magnitude of the end of the age has a focal point of no return, that is, if God doesn't shorten those days, no flesh will be left and we will all be like robots with implanted conscious constructs that destroys what it is to be human.

God knows that his church cannot live alongside a Borg like transhumanist utopia as they will be starved out. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against my church.

Do you think that God will act only after the transhumanist agenda gets off the ground?

Or will he act when the abomination is presented in sequence from homosexuality and transgenderism, before it proceeds to transhumanism?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Hi,

Yes, you indicated that 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 contradict the idea of a rapture. I said that I believe the reason that there are "peaceful" passages about the day the son of man is revealed is because they are referring to the rapture, while "catastrophic" passages are referring to the actual physical second coming at the end of the age. You indicated that you thought that 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 contradicted this, and I wanted you to explain how.
Achilles,
I shall try to have this discussion.
There is a rapture, but it is integral to the second coming which is the end of the age.
Let me initially remind that Matthew 24 is a discussion of Jesus' return and the signs which shall accompany His return...
Matthew 24:3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Accordingly, His return is the end of the age...the Last Day, Judgement Day.

The following passages are referring to the events of Matthew 24:29;30...
I Corinthians 15:51-52:
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Here again is Matthew 24:29-30 for your convenience in comparison...

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

There is no time for some left behind scenario in these events because Jesus says Immediately.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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The magnitude of the end of the age has a focal point of no return, that is, if God doesn't shorten those days, no flesh will be left and we will all be like robots with implanted conscious constructs that destroys what it is to be human.

God knows that his church cannot live alongside a Borg like transhumanist utopia as they will be starved out. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against my church.

Do you think that God will act only after the transhumanist agenda gets off the ground?

Or will he act when the abomination is presented in sequence from homosexuality and transgenderism, before it proceeds to transhumanism?
Jesus did say the gates of hell will not prevail against...He also says when the Son of Man returns shall He find faith?
The faith of a true believer can withstand the gates of hell. How many true believers with this faith shall remain is a mystery...totally unknown.
 
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The Times

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Pop culture is pushing the LIE of transhumanism.

I came across Kayne West song Stronger, That makes us harder, better, faster stronger, where Kayne West is depicted as Satan, appearing as the angel of light aka Lucifer and saying the following....

Bow in the presence of greatness
'cause right now thou hast forsaken us
You should be honored by my lateness
That I would even show up to this fake poop
Act like you can't tell who made this
New gospel homie, take six, and take this, haters (true Christians)

Within this Transhumanist cyrbenetic theme, every time Kayne West mentions those versus a pictures appears identifying him as Lucifer.

He even hints at a new antichrist gospel with the take 6, meaning mark of the beast.

Lucifer in the clip even makes fun of Christians as follows......

I'm the boss tonight
And you don't give a dam what they all say right?
Awesome, the Christian (By name only) and Christian Dior (flawless pure bride)
Dam, they don't make them like this anymore (Meaning Christians in this day and age are foney)
I ask because I'm not sure
So anyone make real stuff anymore
Bow in the presence of greatness
 
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