the Lutheran Gospel is difficult to accept, isn't it?

[FireDragon76]

For a religion that denies the place of works in justification, the Lutheran Gospel is difficult to accept, isn't it? It's almost a paradox. It seems to me, very few outside perhaps some of the more evangelical and reformed churches really believe we are justified by faith alone. There is always some "but" in there, some good works that covertly or overtly justify us and make us an acceptable kind of Christian.

Anybody seen/read the book/film Silence? The pastor and I were talked about this story over coffee yesterday. A prominent Catholic bishop in the US panned this film, and the pastor asked me about this because I just loaned him the book last week (coincidentally, it happened to be the day of the commemoration of the martyrs of Japan. I just felt he should read it so I loaned it to him, unaware of the commemoration, and he then told me it was serendipitous). So he hasn't finished it yet, and he isn't so familiar with Japanese culture. But he is a fan of this certain bishop, so he was wondering about my take on it. I told him, it's because the story is too Lutheran. In many ways, the story is a critique of the Theology of Glory of the European Counter-Reformation. The bishop expected the protagonist to be the hero that merits glory, so he miss the point - Jesus Christ is the real hero of this story, the suffering servant who offers Himself to be trampled on and to love those that betray him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, most believe in some form of Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security within the churches today. It is the popular wide gate belief. Most do not ascribe to following Jesus. That is a big, "no", "no." Yet, that is what the disciples and the apostles did. Hence, why they were called "Christians."


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

People like to believe they have earnt their way to heaven by bring good enough
Pride is a damnable thing.
They like to look at others and believe they are morally superior to them, so naturally they will attain to heaven.
As Paul tells us, there can be no boasting in a belief we are justified apart from works of the law, and the flesh loves to boast.
People will lob in a few insincere words of humility to try and deflect you from seeing why they so vehemently oppose justification apart from observing the law of course.

But those my heart goes out to are the humble and sincere, who are crying out for the truth, but at best, they only get taught a hybrid gospel

 

[Zayin7]

Actually, most believe in some form of Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security within the churches today. It is the popular wide gate belief. Most do not ascribe to following Jesus. That is a big, "no", "no." Yet, that is what the disciples and the apostles did. Hence, why they were called "Christians."


...

would love it if you would repost this in a forum with more freedom to discuss it . discussing it here is like ...ouch haha

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Thinking that you're a good person, that you aren't as bad as "that person" or "those people," and that you've done xy&z, so that proves that you're a good person, thus you will go to Heaven *If there is a God*, is one of the most damnable tricks of the Devil. This was my thought process before I became a Christian. I had no idea...

 

[FireDragon76]

I can identify with some of that, but I don't think it was so dramatic for me. And I've had periods also where my spirituality at various churches bordered on the pathological (the kind of stuff that left Luther tortured): for me, Lutheranism has been finding my worth as a human being. I've learned to stop being so self-critical and anxious, and beating myself up for feelings of failure. I've stopped trying to find "negs" when the pastor or my therapist says something good about me. I've gotten bad religion (lots of Law and no Gospel) largely out of my head.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For a religion that denies the place of works in justification, the Lutheran Gospel is difficult to accept, isn't it? It's almost a paradox. It seems to me, very few outside perhaps some of the more evangelical and reformed churches really believe we are justified by faith alone. There is always some "but" in there, some good works that covertly or overtly justify us and make us an acceptable kind of Christian.

Anybody seen/read the book/film Silence? The pastor and I were talked about this story over coffee yesterday. A prominent Catholic bishop in the US panned this film, and the pastor asked me about this because I just loaned him the book last week (coincidentally, it happened to be the day of the commemoration of the martyrs of Japan. I just felt he should read it so I loaned it to him, unaware of the commemoration, and he then told me it was serendipitous). So he hasn't finished it yet, and he isn't so familiar with Japanese culture. But he is a fan of this certain bishop, so he was wondering about my take on it. I told him, it's because the story is too Lutheran. In many ways, the story is a critique of the Theology of Glory of the European Counter-Reformation. The bishop expected the protagonist to be the hero that merits glory, so he miss the point - Jesus Christ is the real hero of this story, the suffering servant who offers Himself to be trampled on and to love those that betray him.

I admit that I have existed within the LCMS/LCC, and while I do not know what each person believes, I have never seen heard a single person that holds eternal security, but some remnants of the pietist movement do persist in certain parishes and among certain members; not denying the theology of Grace, but feeling the need to cooperate in one's grace; focusing more on works.

I have, however, met a few ELCIC members who did believe in both eternal security and a (crypto)Calvinist view predestination. I don't believe that they were taught this, but it seems that it is tolerated as "Pious Opinion", as are a lot of other things that would not be acceptable in the confessional Churches.

 

[FireDragon76]

I admit that I have existed within the LCMS/LCC, and while I do not know what each person believes, I have never seen heard a single person that holds eternal security, but some remnants of the pietist movement do persist in certain parishes and among certain members; not denying the theology of Grace, but feeling the need to cooperate in one's grace; focusing more on works.

According to my pastor, the ethos of the ELCA doesn't really define itself against pietism, though he himself is from a German LCMS background and that influences his approach to being Lutheran. Parts of the ELCA were very much influenced by broad-church Scandinavian Lutheranism.

I'm actually planning on doing some reading of Spener and Arndt during Lent. I want to understand this aspect of historic Lutheranism, straight from the source.

I have, however, met a few ELCIC members who did believe in both eternal security and a (crypto)Calvinist view predestination.

I believe a lot of the difference is down to how Calvinists think of the importance of predestination and its separation from the visible and ordinary means of grace. I've never really encountered any "anti-Calvinist" sentiments at my church. Lutheranism isn't really contrasted with Calvinism, at least: it is its own thing.