The Lords supper, symbolic? Or the actual Body and blood of Jesus?

Albion

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Real Presence as a mysterious, undefined what?
As containing the actual (not symbolic or representational) presence of Christ.

How can we say that we truly believe in something that is purely a mystery?
If you think about it, half of what we do believe as Christians IS inexplicable. But we know that whatever it is...is true. All things spiritual can be considered mysterious to our eyes.

Don't we all need at least a little definition for what it is and what it isn't?
Generally speaking, I'd agree. That doesn't mean that all the things of God boil down to some mathematical or rational explanation, especially when it comes to "how it does that." ;) For example, we don't have a specific, scientific explanation for how the Virgin birth could have happened, but we know enough to believe it.

Transubstantiation is an attempt to do just that.
Exactly so. The faith of the church for a thousand years or so ultimately produced from the inquisitive mind of men the desire to explain how God did what he did. But that's not to say that it was necessary or the guess that won out in the church council of 1215 was correct.

So this leaves people who would deny transubstantiation with two alternatives, either state that it is just a mystery and all attempts at definition are wrong because they attempt to define the undefinable or an alternative definition.
OK. Personally, I'm happy enough to stay with the Apostolic belief and not try to come up with any modification of it. Others feel less secure doing that, I know. :)
 
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Thursday

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If you mean Transubstantiation, no, that only became an official doctrine in the 13th century and had only been talked about from several centuries prior to that. Real Presence, by contrast, was a belief from the first century onward.

Transubstantiation is merely a means of describing what happens at consecration. There was nothing new about it when first proposed.
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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I think the important thing to remember about the Communion is that we should partake in it because of our love in Christ.

It should also be done in a worthy manner. What is and isn't a worthy manner is up for debate.

One who participates in the Supper should not have any unconfessed sins and should actually be a believer. I don't think there is disageenent in that area.

I attend a Baptist church, and we use unfermented grape juice and crackers. I don't know if that is wrong or not. Wine comes from grape juice and crackers and bread come from wheat. I don't know if the actual substances used in the Supper determine whether or not we are taking it in an unworthy way.

I see it as merely a memorial, but I am open to other views such as consubstantiation and the Reformed tradition's spiritual presence.

Idk if the latter two are incompatible with the Baptist faith. I'd imagine the spiritual presence view may be held by some Reformed Baptist, but I never met a Baptist that believed in consubstantiation.

Personally, I don't think it really matters what one believes about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist as long as they observe it properly and with the right heart.
 
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tz620q

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I think the important thing to remember about the Communion is that we should partake in it because of our love in Christ.

Amen, and as most of our love is a reflection of God's love, it's source was Christ's love for us. His love was so strong that he could not leave us as sheep without a shepherd. So he sent the Comforter, the Counselor, the Paraclete as a guide and he gave himself selflessly and humbly to come in the form of mere wine (or juice, I don't think the alcohol content is important) and bread or crackers to continue to be with us. Too many have used rigid theological arguments to break communion with other Christians. I can't think that this is what Christ would want. There are many Eucharistic songs that sing about the fact that the grape or the grain of wheat must die and be crushed to produce the Communion elements. Just like these, Christ was crushed and we need to be as well.
 
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nondenom40

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I think the important thing to remember about the Communion is that we should partake in it because of our love in Christ.

It should also be done in a worthy manner. What is and isn't a worthy manner is up for debate.

One who participates in the Supper should not have any unconfessed sins and should actually be a believer. I don't think there is disageenent in that area.

I attend a Baptist church, and we use unfermented grape juice and crackers. I don't know if that is wrong or not. Wine comes from grape juice and crackers and bread come from wheat. I don't know if the actual substances used in the Supper determine whether or not we are taking it in an unworthy way.

I see it as merely a memorial, but I am open to other views such as consubstantiation and the Reformed tradition's spiritual presence.

Idk if the latter two are incompatible with the Baptist faith. I'd imagine the spiritual presence view may be held by some Reformed Baptist, but I never met a Baptist that believed in consubstantiation.

Personally, I don't think it really matters what one believes about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist as long as they observe it properly and with the right heart.
emphasis mine
Actually it does matter. For catholics once the host is consecrated it IS god. Its not a symbol of god, they believe it is really god literally present in the waffer and wine. This is why they worship the host, yes worship. If its not god, then that is idolatry pure and simple which is blasphemy. If what i described is true then one of us is approaching the Lords table in an unworthy manner. Either us by not revering God, or catholics for worshiping something that isn't god.
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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emphasis mine
Actually it does matter. For catholics once the host is consecrated it IS god. Its not a symbol of god, they believe it is really god literally present in the waffer and wine. This is why they worship the host, yes worship. If its not god, then that is idolatry pure and simple which is blasphemy. If what i described is true then one of us is approaching the Lords table in an unworthy manner. Either us by not revering God, or catholics for worshiping something that isn't god.

I don't agree with transubstantiation, and I would say it does matter to Catholics what one believes about the Lord's Supper, I'm just saying that as a Protestant, one's salvation does not depend on the view of the sacrament.
 
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nondenom40

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I don't agree with transubstantiation, and I would say it does matter to Catholics what one believes about the Lord's Supper, I'm just saying that as a Protestant, one's salvation does not depend on the view of the sacrament.
It definitely matters to catholics, its dogma. But i agree, in reality it doesn't matter in terms of salvation. Especially since the Lords Table is for those who are already saved.
 
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tz620q

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I don't agree with transubstantiation, and I would say it does matter to Catholics what one believes about the Lord's Supper, I'm just saying that as a Protestant, one's salvation does not depend on the view of the sacrament.
Would you say that you hold to a purely memorial view of the Lord's Supper, where Christ is no more present at this moment than at any other moment in your service? Or do you see some greater presence of Christ during or perhaps within the Lord's Supper?
 
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nondenom40

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Would you say that you hold to a purely memorial view of the Lord's Supper, where Christ is no more present at this moment than at any other moment in your service? Or do you see some greater presence of Christ during or perhaps within the Lord's Supper?
Christ is present in born again individuals, not bread or wine. Yes the Lords Table is for the remembrance of His death that we proclaim till He returns. And its done corporately as a community of believers.
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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Would you say that you hold to a purely memorial view of the Lord's Supper, where Christ is no more present at this moment than at any other moment in your service? Or do you see some greater presence of Christ during or perhaps within the Lord's Supper?

As a Baptist, I hold to a memorial view. However, I am open to the consubstantiation or spiritual presence view.
 
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prodromos

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Symbolic.
"Do this in remembrance of me." = Ordinance.
John 6 and "Last Supper" verses are metaphors.
Thus has spoken the infallible Pope Ron.
 
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